"But her gun would be taken away from her!"

[joelr]

I've been hearing this piece of nonsense a lot, of late. I'd kind of hoped -- but not believed -- that I'd put a stake in the heart of it with this.

But, no.

There's been a fair amount of media attention generated around the rather brazen daylight mugging of an elderly friend of mine; I did my best to help generate some of it. If you're interested, you can start here and page up. What isn't generally reported is that the MPD only got off the dime when they learned that Fluffy was taking a carry class from me, at which point they decided to hold a news conference about the attack. Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Maybe, but I doubt it, from some comments a couple of the officers dropped.

So Fluffy's been interviewed by all of the local tv stations and newspapers, and the perps were pretty quickly rolled up; their mother turned them in. (The mother's story, that she was appalled by their criminality, isn't exactly supported by the poor lads' previous history, or the mother's own.)

Every one of them, though, has brought up the "wouldn't your gun be taken away from you and used against you?" canard.

 

[bogie]

After thinking about it some, my standard reply is... "Would you like to try to take a gun away from me?"

They answer "no."

I then tell 'em that there's no way that I'd dream of trying to take one away from someone. ESPECIALLY someone significantly smaller/weaker. Because life ain't like TV, and if you scare someone enough, they're gonna shoot you, and that's when size don't matter.

 

[joelr]

I've tried something similar, but it hasn't been persuasive; I think some folks watch too much television.

 

[SoCalGeek]

Though i've never had that "argument" come up in a debate before, I think a response to that might be to take an unloaded gun, a replica, or even a small stick, and ask them to do a bit of roleplaying. You're the prospective victim, they're the robber/rapist/bad guy. Ask them to demonstrate how they could take a gun from you before you shoot them with it. I'm willing to bet that unless they have a lot of very good disarmament training, they have no idea how to go about this.

 

[UnknownSailor]

I think that reporters ask this because they know no better that what hollywood says, where peope get their handgun kicked out of their hands with ease (and every time it's tried it works).

I'd say, "The movies aren't reality, next question?"

 

[Standing Wolf]

After thinking about it some, my standard reply is... "Would you like to try to take a gun away from me?"

That's well said.

The sad sorry simple fact of the matter is this: no matter what we say, no matter how the statistics line up, no matter how the facts shake down, anti-Second Amendment bigots remain convinced commoners have no business keeping and bearing arms.

 

[mr_dove]

My opinion has always been that you're only really in danger of getting disarmed if you decide late in the game that you're going to shoot.

There's little chance if your gun goes straight to shooting from concealment. If you pull it out and wave it around a bit to see if your attacker is scared off then might just give him a chance to take it from you.

The moral of the story is Don't draw unless you're ready to shoot and when you do draw. Shoot!

 

[sturmruger]

My favorite disarmament scene was on Die Hard if I remember correctly. Mel Gibson was going to shoot one of the asian bad guys. The asian bad guy was able to completely disasemble Mel's gun in less then a second with just the flick of a wrist.

 

[pax]

I allus' liked Tamara's take on it: "If someone is trying to take your gun away, just pull the felon repulsion lever..."

pax

 

[stevelyn]

The bad guy was able to disasemble Mel's gun in less than a second with a flick of the wrist.

The scene was in Lethal Weapon IV and the the other actor was Jet Li.
Remember that Mel Gibson's gun in these movies was a Beretta 92 or M-9 in military dress.
Back in the day just before I ETSd from the Army we had just transistioned over to the Berettas. One of the what ifs that came up was that an M-9 could be rendered inop by disassembly in H2H. In theory this is true. All that is needed is to grasp the presented pistol across the top of the slide, push the take-down latch with the thumb and flip the lever down and pull the slide off the frame. It can be done in demonstrations.
Can it be done in reality? Probably not if the person is in condition yellow (as they should be) and picks up on a pending threat. By the time the BG gets an idea to try a disarm, the person should already have the gun out and presented to deal w/ the BG with a reactionary gap between the two. Any attempt by the BG to close the distance should result in him eating a couple of Gold Dots.

 

[Boats]

Well not even Jet Li really did it. If you freeze a DVD copy of the scene, the takedown latch was already in the field stripping mode when Mel was brandishing it at him.

The whole "speed takedown" of a Beretta 92 is fanciful crap requiring tremendously knowledgable finger dexterity in what would be a very adrenaline charged situation in reality.

 

[MJRW]

I have usually responded with:

"Since it is clearly that easy to disarm someone, then I will just take my gun BACK from the criminal."

or

"Why is it they can take my gun from me, but I can't take their gun from them?"

 

[strambo]

The Beretta speed disasembly is crap for combat, but it can be done fast in demonstrations. It's too bad Jet cheated, in a couple more takes he could have gotten it without the help and been extremely fast. Of course even if you trained this so much you could do it fast in a high stress scenario (with sweat and blood and shaky hands)...how do you ensure your BG always has a Beretta?

I know! I'd carry a Beretta as a spare gun and if someone holds me up, I'll convince them they should really have a better firearm for this profession and offer my Beretta, then take it away!

On topic, a good reply would be..."You're a journalist, why don't you interview some criminals in prison and see how easy they think it would be to disarm a woman, and how they feel about gun carrying victims." "Come back when you have some real knowledge about the subject and we'll discuss it then."

 

[Andrew Rothman]

The return of the zombie thread!

Just had to report that the second of the two thugs was just sentenced for the assault. More than eight years. Not bad, but I wonder how many months he'll actually serve.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5326010.html

Teen sentenced in assault, robbery
April 2, 2005 KNOX0402

Gregory L. Knox's eight-year, eight-month sentence is two years longer than the one his older brother Jerry L. Knox, 20, received in August for the May 1 attack on Lynn Murray in her Book Trader store in the 5300 block of 34th Av. S. Both brothers are from Minneapolis.

On Friday, Jerry Knox told Hennepin County District Judge Dan Mabley that he was the ringleader and had persuaded his younger brother to go with him to the store.

Mabley later said he did not find the statement to be credible.

Murray told police that Gregory Knox grabbed her from behind and that she was hit in the face, stomach, chest, back and knees, according to the criminal charges.

The robbers also threatened to use a knife and a gun and to sexually assault her, according to the charges.

Murray said about $185 in cash and about $500 worth of rings were stolen.

She said in court Friday that she has had numerous surgeries, which meant her bookstore has been closed for about five months. She also faces additional surgery.

Susan Knox, mother of the brothers, turned them in to police after seeing a news report about the robbery. It included information that one of the assailants had "Little Jerry" tattooed on his neck, which Susan Knox recognized as her son's.

Margaret Zack

 

[surr]

depends on the distances involved

I'd much rather try a novice woman shootist at 6 ft than an experienced black belt, male shottist at 3 ft.

 

[Sean Smith]

Simply accuse them of being sexist. Better yet, use scarcasm, e.g. "You are so right, women are so weak and inept that they shouldn't be trusted with anything requiring physical ability or personal responsibility to use. Their lack of driving ability and incompetence in the scientific fields is ample evidence of that. I understand your argument completely."

 

[mbs357]

Hrm...
Wouldn't a shottist be a person experienced at getting shot?
>_>

 

[goon]

If she is a person who thinks like that, then I would say yes, it probably would be taken away from her and used against her.
If you are talking about the type of hard-core no-BS woman that we (shooters) admire so much though...
I would say that it might be possible but that you would have to wade through a hail of copper-jacketed lead to do it.
Depends on the woman.

 

[Bear Gulch]

No one will want your gun if you have fired off all of the ammo!

I think that the biggest erro is folks trying to talk once it's time to shoot. I f you gun has left the holster the time for talking is done.

 

[Horsesense]

Liberal Potations have been trying to take my gun for years, what make you think I'm going to let some two-bit thug take it now?

 

[Cestus]

I believe I saw this in the "Marine Rules of a Gunfight."

If it ever comes to pass that someone kills you with your own gun, he'd better beat you to death with it, because it will be empty.

 

[Kharn]

The second person that said that crap to me found themself wearing a paintball mask and looking down the barrel of an airsoft spring pistol in short order. They realized it wasnt very likely when I put the BB in the middle of their chest as soon as they started to grab for it.

Kharn

 

[Snake Eyes]

Squirtguns are excellent for this type of demonstration.

I've offered $100 bets to people: disarm me without getting wet. So far, no takers.

 

[DFBonnett]

"But her gun would be taken away from her!"

I discussed this with both my wife and my daughter. Their responses were essentially the same. If the perp can take the gun away from them after being shot in the chest with 158gr +P LSWCHPs at least three or four times then this is their day to die. More likely it would be the perp's day to die.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Regarding LW IV Jet Li M9 disassembly

I don't own a Beretta, but I do own a Taurus PT-92, a "better" clone of the Beretta. What I've discovered is this, if the weapon is loaded, you MIGHT be able to release the slide, but it won't come off the frame. The magazine will be in the way.