CA:Orange County - Lady was told July 26, 2016 for appointment for CCW

[JRH6856]

I'm saying the resistance to preparing to issue to a reasonable volume of applicants is political and philosophically anti-gun. Orange County could have developed contingency plans for this result, but did not.

Of course it is anti-gun. Politicians and beaureaucrats do not develop contingency plans for implementing alternative policies they oppose. They focus their efforts on implementing policeis they support.

When the California counties like San Francisco and Contra Costa and Alameda and Los Angeles are compelled to abandon their 'preferences' in the face of a constitutional right, they will make exactly the same excuse for not issuing - 'oh, we do not have the staff!'

Of course they will. Because they probably don't have the staff (see above). Why would they have people sitting around waiting to do something they were not requried by law to do.

The process to issue licenses need not take anywhere the time and resources now devoted to the effort - numerous other states manage quite well.

Other states are not California. Different laws create a different starting point. Peruta is not a detailed court order telling CA exactly what it has to do to change procedures, laws, and regulations to implement the ruling. It just says, "If you do A, then you must do B. And now counties that have not been doing B have to figure out how to do it. Those counties that have budget, infrastructure and personnel in place that can be repurposed, will find it easier then those counties that don't have these things and must figure out (a) what they need to do, (b) how much it will cost, and (c) how to pay for it.

 

[Midwest]

There are counties in California which have been "shall issue" for awhile.

How do these counties manage the applicants?

How long does it take to issue a permit in those counties?

And my last question...

Doesn't some of the fee for the permit go to the county issuing the permit, so the county can recoup (some of) the cost in administering the permit?

.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I worked for a county for 30 years. I fully understand how this could happen in a heavily populated area like Orange county. I don't agree with it but I know how it works or doesn't work.

Gov't is generally not inclined to do anything they don't have to do and sometimes they don't even do what they are supposed to do. Gov't isn't like a private business where unhappy customers will close your doors.

For the most part there is very little accountability in gov't and even when it can be shown that they are being poorly managed no one gets fired until the next election. They always say we are taking steps to comply with the order but even that sometimes takes years.

Sounds like there might be an election in 2016. Even with a court order I don't think the situation is going to change much.

 

[JRH6856]

In general, politicians and bureaucracies do things they support as soon as they can. They do things they oppose as soon as they must (and delay as long as they can). Bureaucratic inefficiency often impedes the former and aids the latter.

Bureaucratic inefficiency is part of the system. It is built in. The only way to speed up the process is to not expect cheerful compliance while steadily demanding compliance, cheerful of not, and challenging genuine obstructionism. But don't mistake bureaucratic inefficiency for obstructionism.

 

[CoalTrain49]

In general, politicians and bureaucracies do things they support as soon as they can. They do things they oppose as soon as they must (and delay as long as they can). Bureaucratic inefficiency often impedes the former and aids the latter.

Bureaucratic inefficiency is part of the system. It is built in. The only way to speed up the process is to not expect cheerful compliance while steadily demanding compliance, cheerful of not, and challenging genuine obstructionism. But don't mistake bureaucratic inefficiency for obstructionism.

Good point and good advice. Sometimes you have to call them out.

 

[Librarian]

Other states are not California. Different laws create a different starting point. Peruta is not a detailed court order telling CA exactly what it has to do to change procedures, laws, and regulations to implement the ruling. It just says, "If you do A, then you must do B. And now counties that have not been doing B have to figure out how to do it. Those counties that have budget, infrastructure and personnel in place that can be repurposed, will find it easier then those counties that don't have these things and must figure out (a) what they need to do, (b) how much it will cost, and (c) how to pay for it.

Here is the pertinent CA law, Penal Code 26150:

(a) When a person applies for a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, the sheriff of a county may issue a license to that person upon proof of all of the following:

(1) The applicant is of good moral character.

(2) Good cause exists for issuance of the license.

(3) The applicant is a resident of the county or a city within the county, or the applicant’s principal place of employment or business is in the county or a city within the county and the applicant spends a substantial period of time in that place of employment or business.

(4) The applicant has completed a course of training as described in Section 26165.

The Peruta case addresses (a)(2).

Some suggest NICS should satisfy (a)(1) - how long does that take?

CA already has a law in place that requires CA residents to prove that residency to purchase a handgun; that same documentation should suffice for (a)(3).

Training, for (a)(4), is a problem for the applicant; certification of the training is what the issuing agency needs.

(a)(2-4) can be checked off by a counter clerk.

(a)(1), in CA, requires LiveScan of prints and actually takes about a week. http://oag.ca.gov/fingerprints/applicants

Delays

While most of the time results are returned to the applicant agency within three days, delays can occur. Applicants should check, for the first seven days, with the applicant agency that requested the background review since the DOJ sends results directly to the applicant agency. Delays can be caused by poor fingerprint quality, the existence of any criminal information in the applicant’s record, birthdates before 1920, and incorrect data submitted on the electronic transaction. You can help prevent delays by making sure the Live Scan operator has entered ALL the information on your Live Scan form and entered it CORRECTLY.

Any background check that comes back 'clean' can be handled by a clerk.

There has to be an application, because info is needed for the license: PC 26175

(i) Any license issued upon the application shall set forth the licensee’s name, occupation, residence and business address, the licensee’s age, height, weight, color of eyes and hair, and the reason for desiring a license to carry the weapon, and shall, in addition, contain a description of the weapon or weapons authorized to be carried, giving the name of the manufacturer, the serial number, and the caliber.

Checklist: Application? clean background? residency? proof of training? fees paid? Start the 'issue the physical document' process.

It's when the issuing agencies want to do more than the Penal Code requires that things slow down.

 

[JRH6856]

Some suggest NICS should satisfy (a)(1) - how long does that take?

See post #18. AFAIK, NICS can only be used by FFLs for firearms purchases. If so, it can't be used to satisfy (a)(1). The county must run its own NCIC check using its own equipment and its own personnel. And if the county does not have sufficient equipment or personnel, it will take a while until they acquire both.

 

[Librarian]

That was already addressed -

(a)(1), in CA, requires LiveScan of prints and actually takes about a week. http://oag.ca.gov/fingerprints/applicants

I do not find myself sympathetic to problems caused by the political leanings of some California counties.

Why is it you seem to be making excuses for them?

 

[JRH6856]

That was already addressed -
I do not find myself sympathetic to problems caused by the political leanings of some California counties.

Why is it you seem to be making excuses for them?

I'm not sympathetic either, and if I lived in Cali, would probably be even less so. The legislature made their bed and now the courts have mussed it up and they have to deal with the consequences. Tough. It goes with the territory and they deserve no sympathy.

But I have an idea how bureaucracies work...or don't. They have to do this, so they will. But...they are not going to make it their top priority drop everything else they are doing and move heaven and earth to get it done ASAP, no matter how much we might want that to happen. Some might, most won't. Unless they are under court order or legislative requirement to do otherwise (and as yet, they aren't), they'll just get it done along with everything else they are doing in their own good time.

 

[Field Tester]

I don't understand what all the whining and voting out the sheriff talk is about. Orange County is embracing the change better than most.




From a couple weeks ago.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...weapons-20140320,0,835929.story#axzz2xhKMSlAx



They are also looking in to possibly hiring up to 5 permanent people to process the applications

Because the Sheriff is the one that decided the standard for May Issue. This is why it is easier to receive a CCW in other counties. They were not enforcing the law, they were enforcing their own politics. People should remember who is in office and vote them out next time.

There is no way Bill Gore will ever receive a vote from me. Right now he's using your exact words to CYA but it's bull. He's calling people saying he was only enforcing the law and yet has been quoted several times stating civilians should not be armed unless HE feels it's a just reason.

Please stop making excuses for politicians and their anti gun stance. They already have enough votes from the antis, they don't need more people lying for them to the very people who's rights they've taken away.

 

[Librarian]

But I have an idea how bureaucracies work...or don't. They have to do this, so they will. But...they are not going to make it their top priority drop everything else they are doing and move heaven and earth to get it done ASAP, no matter how much we might want that to happen. Some might, most won't. Unless they are under court order or legislative requirement to do otherwise (and as yet, they aren't), they'll just get it done along with everything else they are doing in their own good time.

There we agree.

I believe the effort to get them "under court order or legislative requirement to do otherwise" is progressing, slowly but surely.

 

[danez71]

Because the Sheriff is the one that decided the standard for May Issue. This is why it is easier to receive a CCW in other counties. They were not enforcing the law, they were enforcing their own politics. People should remember who is in office and vote them out next time.

There is no way Bill Gore will ever receive a vote from me. Right now he's using your exact words to CYA but it's bull. He's calling people saying he was only enforcing the law and yet has been quoted several times stating civilians should not be armed unless HE feels it's a just reason.

Please stop making excuses for politicians and their anti gun stance. They already have enough votes from the antis, they don't need more people lying for them to the very people who's rights they've taken away.

Oh phooey.

The OC Sheriff is the only sheriff that (almost) immediately stated they would start processing CCP applications

The OC sheriff is also the only one that is actually hiring people and trying to shorten the wait time.

The OC sheriff actually removed one of the requirements to help speed the process. (if you read it, it was noted in the article.)

(The previous OC sheriff was busted for (among other things) issuing permits only to people that gave donations.)


All the other sheriffs (that weren't already issuing them) came out and said "we're not doing anything until this settles in court".


So is it as good as it should be? Heck no.

Is the OC sheriff actually taking action and reducing the requirements to speed the process? YES!!!!


My wife personally knows someone in OC that just got their appt moved up sooner. Its about 4 months away.

 

[Field Tester]

Oh phooey.

The OC Sheriff is the only sheriff that (almost) immediately stated they would start processing CCP applications

The OC sheriff is also the only one that is actually hiring people and trying to shorten the wait time.

The OC sheriff actually removed one of the requirements to help speed the process. (if you read it, it was noted in the article.)

(The previous OC sheriff was busted for (among other things) issuing permits only to people that gave donations.)


All the other sheriffs (that weren't already issuing them) came out and said "we're not doing anything until this settles in court".


So is it as good as it should be? Heck no.

Is the OC sheriff actually taking action and reducing the requirements to speed the process? YES!!!!


My wife personally knows someone in OC that just got their appt moved up sooner. Its about 4 months away.

So because they were ruled to be violating Californians Civil Rights but have now has done a 180° it's all better? Malarkey. The Sheriff is the issuing body and therefore sets the standard for "Good Cause".

The only reason the OC Sheriff flipped so quickly is two fold.

1. It had become a public issue and they knew it was going to cost votes from Moderates that were previously not informed on the issue.
2. OC is probably the most Red county in California and we all know that Republicans tend to vote for gun rights issues.

If your personal relationship with the Sheriff is affecting your political opinion of them, well I understand and sympathise. My Mother worked for the SD Sheriff Dept during Bill Kolender's reign. Bill Kolender was just as anti as Bill Gore. It hit me hard when I grew old enough to form my own opinion. But I did form my own opinion regardless of someone I love's relationship with the Dept.

Every Sheriff that withheld our Civil Rights from us should be outed and held accountable. This includes both OC and SD Sheriffs.

 

[danez71]

So because they were ruled to be violating Californians Civil Rights but have now has done a 180° it's all better? Malarkey. The Sheriff is the issuing body and therefore sets the standard for "Good Cause".

The only reason the OC Sheriff flipped so quickly is two fold.

1. It had become a public issue and they knew it was going to cost votes from Moderates that were previously not informed on the issue.
2. OC is probably the most Red county in California and we all know that Republicans tend to vote for gun rights issues.

If your personal relationship with the Sheriff is affecting your political opinion of them, well I understand and sympathise. My Mother worked for the SD Sheriff Dept during Bill Kolender's reign. Bill Kolender was just as anti as Bill Gore. It hit me hard when I grew old enough to form my own opinion. But I did form my own opinion regardless of someone I love's relationship with the Dept.

Every Sheriff that withheld our Civil Rights from us should be outed and held accountable. This includes both OC and SD Sheriffs.

(addressing the bolded parts)

I never said it was all better... in fact, if you actually read and comprehended my post, I specifically said "So is it as good as it should be? Heck no.".

To insinuate I said otherwise is ridiculous.

Apparently you don't understand. I never said I had any relationship with the sheriff. Where the hack did you come up with that?!?!

What I said was "My wife personally knows someone in OC that just got their appt moved up sooner. Its about 4 months away. "

Yes, my wife knows some one that lives in OC and their apt has been moved up. No where did I say "I" knew someone and no where did I say anything that resembles "some one in OC that works for OCSD".

To insinuate that my judgment is influence from some relationship (that I don't have) is even more ridiculous. I don't know a single person that works for the OCSD.


Unless you have never voted for a person in CA, I assure you that you have voted for someone that is anti gun.

While it sounds very idealistic to say what you did (and I actually agree with you), unless you have just chosen not to vote, its not realistic to say that in CA where there are many times not a single pro 2A candidate to vote for.


Now please, stop insinuating that I'm saying things that I have clearly not said and if fact stated just the opposite.

 

[Field Tester]

When the public office is the one that sets the criteria for issuing CCW permits, no, I have never voted for a anti gun candidate.
You can strawman me all you want for the other offices, but they are a much broader range of issues.
The Sheriff is public safety and my track record is flawless.
Bill Gore was put in office however by the BoS after Kolender resigned.
Why are you being such an apologist for them? What's your stake in this? It obviously is personal because you are fighting so passionately for them when the only thing I've stated is to look at the track record, possible future agenda and the viable others candidates.
So what is it? Why so heated? Why so personal?

 

[Field Tester]

Perhaps you need to take another look at your own Sig Line.
Stop running and see the OC and SD Sheriffs for what they are. Why is that so hard to comprehend? How can you possibly be an apologist for someone like that and still state what you do in your Signature?

 

[HexHead]

Certainly, but we aren't talking about "some states" the subject is California and per your link, there is no waiting period there. And no background check which was my point.

Unless the law has changed, when my wife and I were married in CA, blood tests were required. We really had to rush around to get them so we could get married on the date we wanted.

 

[RustyShackelford]

state & county issued CCW licenses/permits....

It took my friend about 12/14 calendar months to get his county issued target gun license(Westchester County NY).
I think it only lasts 3 years but it might be 5.
My state passed gun laws about 11 years ago(with support from the NRA/ILA) to mandate CCW licenses be processed in 90 days or less by law.
The state Div of Licensing was reportedly working 6 days per week & hiring temp services to clear the backlogs(late 2012, late 2008, etc).

I got my new CCW(W) license last fall in approx 24 days. It's valid until 2020.

 

[danez71]

When the public office is the one that sets the criteria for issuing CCW permits, no, I have never voted for a anti gun candidate.
You can strawman me all you want for the other offices, but they are a much broader range of issues.
The Sheriff is public safety and my track record is flawless.
Bill Gore was put in office however by the BoS after Kolender resigned.
Why are you being such an apologist for them? What's your stake in this? It obviously is personal because you are fighting so passionately for them when the only thing I've stated is to look at the track record, possible future agenda and the viable others candidates.
So what is it? Why so heated? Why so personal?

LOL....

I'm not an apologist for anyone. Quote me were I was instead of fabricating things I never said.

All I said was that the OC Sheriff is actually taking action and still criticized them by saying it wasn't as good as it should be.


Why do you feel the need to fabricate things I never said?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Getting personal.