Can a bullet slow down before leaving barrel?

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Bayourambler

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All you reloading scientists listen up!! I was just wondering if anyone could answer this question. Is it possible for a bullet to actually start slowing down by the time it exits the muzzle? If you were loading a minimal charge of one of the faster powders reccomend out of a longer rifle barrel, is it possible to loose acceleration if the powder is all burnt while the bullet is traveling down the barrel? You can imagine how much force it takes to hurl a bullet through the rifling. It probably sounds like a dumb question to more experienced reloaders, but I am fairly new and curious if it can happen. I ask this because if this were true, you could load in a tiny window that would give you random slow velocities if you were right on the edge of full powder burn. Reload gurus, enlighten me on powder burn and delta v.;)
 
yes this is why the old 22 rifles shot so good (and the long sight radius), after about 16 inches the 22s stat slowing down. the bullet exit the barrel subsonic, this makes for better accuracy. with rifle rounds u would depend on the powder, i would think it's possible with rifle rounds. but the powder used may be very inefficient and not a good choice to use.
 
f you were loading a minimal charge of one of the faster powders reccomend out of a longer rifle barrel,

Faster burning powders have nothing to do with barrel length. Even the slowest burning powders completely burn well before the bullet leaves any legal rifle barrel length. Even though all of the powder burns within just a few inches regardless of how fast of slow it burns pressure continues to build and longer barrels generally produce more speed. Deciding between a slow or fast powder depends on many factors. Sometimes you get optimal bullet speeds by using a faster powder, sometimes a slower powder results in more velocity. For example in 30-06 you get better results with faster burning powders with 150 gr and lighter bullets. The heavier the bullets the slower the powder needs to be for optimal results. Slow powders with light bullets don't give good results regardless of barrel length.

Another factor is simply the difference between individual barrels. It is very common to see 25-50 fps difference in speed between barrels of the same length. I have 2 rifles chambered in 30-06, both with 22" barrels. One of them is 60-90 fps faster than the other with ammo from the same box. I have 2 rifles in 308, one is consistently 25-30 fps faster than the other. I've seen as much as 130 fps difference between barrels of the same length and I've seen 20" barrels shoot slightly faster than another 24" barrel. I've also seen 24" barrels shoot 200 fps faster than an individual 20" barrel. It happens and is due to manufacturing tolerances, not because the longer barrel caused the bullet to slow down.

In theory what you are asking is possible. But I've not known of any center fire cartridge slowing down in a barrel. I suppose with extremely long barrels approaching 4' it might happen. It can happen with 22's. Around 18-20" or so gives 99% of the speed you'll get with most 22's. You might pick up a little more speed out to 22" or so, but extremely long barrels can actually slow down bullets.
 
Sounds like you are begging for a squib. If you are loading light like that make sure each bullet actually leaves the barrel before you send another one behind it.

I read somewhere that the ideal load would be where the powder gets completely burnt and the bullet reaches 0 acceleration as it is leaving the barrel. Something about gas escaping around the bullet causing turbulence or something. I imagine this load would be rather difficult to fine tune as to how many variables would be involved.
 
Harrison's "THE LOAD" --> 30-06/168SMK/Red Dot/13gr actually does start to slow down slightly before exiting a 24" barrel.
So yes, even conventional hand-loaded/center-fire cartridges can slow down while still in the barrel.**

That said, the same case/bullet loaded with 14.5gr uber-slow RL-50 will hit 600fps mid barrel/barely 100fps @ muzzle . . .
. . . and dump 70% of that powder out that muzzle in both fireball and unburnt particulate on the shooting bench.




** (neither life/nor barrels are frictionless, don'cha know)



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With a light enough load it’s possible to stick a bullet in the barrel. Pushing a copper jacketed bullet down a steel barrel creates lots of friction.

With pistol loads once you start getting below the 600 FPS range you start getting erratic velocities and continuing to go lower can result in stuck bullets.

If interested in light rifle loads it’s a much better option to use lead bullets. You can get subsonic .308 / .30-06 loads with the right powders and lead bullets. I’m not sure how low you can you can go with rifle loads and jacketed bullets.
 
All you reloading scientists listen up!! I was just wondering if anyone could answer this question. Is it possible for a bullet to actually start slowing down by the time it exits the muzzle? If you were loading a minimal charge of one of the faster powders reccomend out of a longer rifle barrel, is it possible to loose acceleration if the powder is all burnt while the bullet is traveling down the barrel? You can imagine how much force it takes to hurl a bullet through the rifling. It probably sounds like a dumb question to more experienced reloaders, but I am fairly new and curious if it can happen. I ask this because if this were true, you could load in a tiny window that would give you random slow velocities if you were right on the edge of full powder burn. Reload gurus, enlighten me on powder burn and delta v.;)

I'd reckon so. The instant the powder is burnt that bullet is only going to slow down.

If it burns up before it's reached the end of the barrel or if it's not burning at a fast enough rate at that point I guess that's just what would happen.
 
I know of an experiement conducted using a 338 Lapua Mag Improved using very slow burning powder and the 300gr Sierra MK bullets.
Originally the barrel was 46" ??? Long. It was eventually cut backed and recrowed to show maximum velocity was reached around the 36" length. That gave a MV of 3300fps+. Can't remember how much the longer lengths slowed it down. But it was definitely slower.

So the simple answer is yes!

Steve
 
Olon, have to disagree with you that the moment the powder is all burnt the bullet slows down. Even if the powder has all burned, and the pressure goes down, there can still be plenty of pressure present to continue to accelerate the projectile. At some point, the pressure will fall enough that the friction of the barrel will cause the bullet to slow, but that's not at the instant the powder is fully consumed. Slower acceleration is still acceleration.
 
P.S. I'm no reloading scientist but I AM a bona fide physics nerd and engineering student so I guess those are my credentials.

Cool. Then you have actual data that supports your claim. Right? Please share it with us.
 
The pressure typically peaks very early in bullet travel and drops off as the bullet moves down the bore. This is because the volume of space behind the bullet grows as the bullet moves down the bore and the gas has more space to fill. More space to fill with the same volume of gas means less pressure.

The fact that the pressure is usually dropping by the time the bullet has moved a significant distance down the bore doesn't mean that the bullet stops accelerating. As long as the force on the back of the bullet due to pressure is greater than combined force of friction from the bore and the force against the front of the bullet from pushing the air in the bore out of the way, the bullet will continue to accelerate.

This also means that even after all the powder has been consumed, the bullet can still be accelerating as long as the force applied to the back of the bullet by the gas pressure exceeds the combined forces retarding the bullet's movement.

Force pushing bullet > Force retarding bullet--acceleration
Force pushing bullet = Force retarding bullet--constant velocity
Force pushing bullet < Force retarding bullet--deceleration

Yes. Bullets can start to slow down in the bore, but it's not common with normal barrel lengths. Even with the pressure starting to drop off almost as soon as the bullet starts moving and continuing to drop as the bullet moves down the bore, there's still usually enough force maintained all the way down the bore to keep accelerating the bullet until it exits the bore and the gas escapes. That's because although the pressure is decreasing as the bullet moves down the bore, it starts off at a very high level. So even though it is decreasing, the amount of force it applies is still very large and remains larger than the combined retarding forces all the way down the bore.

If I'm pushing on a block from one side with a force of 10 units and the resistance totals to a force of 1 unit, then the block will accelerate. Let's say that as soon as it starts moving, I start reducing the amount of force I'm pushing with by 1 unit per second. After 5 seconds, I'm now only pushing with 5 units. So the amount of force I'm pushing with has decreased, but because I'm still pushing with more force than the resistance force of 1 unit, the block is still accelerating. It's still building speed even though I've reduced how much force I'm applying.

The block will continue building speed (the speed increases will be smaller as time goes on since the force I'm pushing with will get smaller over time and as the force imbalance gets smaller, the amount of acceleration reduces) until we get to 9 seconds. At that point, the force I'm pushing with (1 unit--> 10 units - 1 unit per second for 9 seconds) is equal to the force that is resisting the block. Let's say when I detect that moment, I stop decreasing my force and continue pushing with a constant force of 1 unit. Now, since the forces equal, the acceleration will stop--no more speed will be added. It won't slow down, but it will stop speeding up.

If I reduce my pushing force further, now the resistance force of 1 unit is greater than the force I'm pushing with and the block will actually start to slow down.

So, the issue isn't whether the pressure is increasing or decreasing, the issue is whether the pressure is pushing on the back of the bullet with more force than the combined forces that are trying to slow the bullet down. Whether the pressure is increasing or decreasing, the bullet will accelerate as long as the force on the back is greater than the combined slowing forces. Whether the pressure is increasing or decreasing, the bullet will slow down if the force on the back of the bullet is less than the combined slowing forces.
 
Even if the powder has all burned, and the pressure goes down, there can still be plenty of pressure present to continue to accelerate the projectile.
Well I’m not a physics nerd so I guess I don’t understand how that is possible. Since the copper bullet against the steel barrel is causing friction at all points (to the best of my knowledge), and the bullet is being pushed by the expanding gasses. Once the powder is completely burned, there is nothing to continue to create more gas expansion. So I would think at that point, the gas pressure begins to decline. Once the pressure begins to decline, so would the speed of the projectile since it’s only being forced out of the barrel by the gas pressure inside it and to a very small degree, the bullet’s momentum.

Again, I’m no physics expert.
 
Is it possible for a bullet to actually start slowing down by the time it exits the muzzle?

Absolutely. If they couldn’t one would never get stuck in a barrel, it would magically enter then exit at the same or greater speed.
 
Cool. Then you have actual data that supports your claim. Right? Please share it with us.

As requested

Edit: conclusion state 3 should say insufficient, not sufficient and I apologize for reusing lowercase a. in F=ma it's acceleration and everywhere else it's the area of the back of the bullet.

That's for a bullet that's flat in the back as a curved one would involve more work and not add anything to the model.
 

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If not, there could be no squib load/lodged bullet. It had to gain some speed to be forced down the barrel, then had to lose speed to stop.
 
Ok I completely understand it can happen. But at normal velocity ranges in a high powered rifle?

I guess it has to happen. That picture I posted ought to prove that there exists conditions, albeit specific and hard to measure, which would cause a decrease in ole dx/dt over the course of the bullets travel through the barrel.
 
Ok I completely understand it can happen. But at normal velocity ranges in a high powered rifle?

You can constrain variables like powder charge, burn rate, projectile and barrel length and make it not happen but if you change just one of them you could obviously can make it happen.

Look at the numbers here for .223 55 gn. How many more inches do you think it would take for the bullet to begin to slow?

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html

For 9mm it looks like it’s about 17” for the loads they tested, they were slowing in the 18” barrel.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
 
What physics nerds seem to ignore is f=ma. As long as the pushing force (gas pressure) exceeds the constraining force (friction on the bullet), the bullet will continue to accelerate down the barrel. The bullet doesn’t need 50,000 psi to continue accelerating.

But facts and centuries of data don’t matter, as long as you can scribble on a whiteboard someone will listen..... ;)

126284CA-7C0A-4D7A-9BF3-36357BCF01AD.gif


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