Can I legally ship to out-of-state FFL?

[357Shooter]

Can I (NC) legally ship to an FFL dealer in FL for transfer to a friend?
As I understand it's OK but must be overnight? Just want to make sure.

 

[nalioth]

What are you shipping?

Did you search? (This is a top 10 most repeated question here, and the answers never change.)

 

[docnyt]

The short answer is yes. You must use a common carrier (not USPS), usually overnight, unmarked box (that is not designated as a firearm). You will also want a copy of the receiving FFL's license for your records to verify the recipient. Look up the ATF website and handgunlaw.us for details regarding the regulations and laws.

 

[docnyt]

My reply above pertains to handguns by the way. Long guns are slightly different. Nalioth does make some good points.

 

[357Shooter]

Sorry, my bad. Handgun.

 

[kimbershot]

do you have a local ffl holder that will ship for you to the other state? if so, they can send via us mail--could save you some $$$ on a handgun--vs overnight fees.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I wonder how many posts before the question as to whether you must disclose to the carrier that you are shipping a firearm comes up...

 

[MtnCreek]

Make sure you have a signed copy of the ffl prior to shipping. Only ship to the address shown on the ffl. Ship without the ffl or ship to address other than the one on the ffl and bad things could happen.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Make sure you have a signed copy of the ffl prior to shipping.

There's the first myth. Not required for private parties shipping to FFLs. IF the private party wants to verify the FFL, which is NOT required, only the FFL number is required and the private party can use EZ Check to verify the FFL.

Many FFLs are refusing to provide copies of their license to private parties.

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

I am surprised this myth came up before the notification required by law myth.

The absolute easiest way to accomplish the shipment is to contact the receiving FFL, see what THEY want, and do it THEIR way. Because if you don't do it THEIR way, chances are they will simply refuse the shipment.

 

[nalioth]

Make sure you have a signed copy of the ffl prior to shipping.

This is not even a requirement for dealers, any more.

As an unlicensed person, the shipper must only know that they're shipping to an FFL holder. This can be done via the ATF's EZ-Check.

NavyLT, were you wondering how long it'd be before someone made something up?

 

[NavyLCDR]

NavyLT, were you wondering how long it'd be before someone made something up?

But, if it's a rifle, can I send it to my brother's wife's mother's second cousin twice removed by marriage in the next state over? After all, they are family living in a contiguous state. And, if I leave the rifle's magazine fully loaded, won't that wear out the springs?

There.... got those out of the way for this week, too....

 

[MtnCreek]

If that's a myth, it's news to me. My understanding is that you can only ship to a ffl or yourself. How do you know that you're shipping to a ffl w/o a copy. Let's say you sell a firearm on GBroker. Guy buying gives you the shipping address and says it's their ffl. You ship to that address and it turns out to be his address or some other address. You just transfered a firearm via common carrier accross state line to who knows who. Plus the firearm is still in your name. Something happens with the firearm and ATF comes to see you and all you've got is (maybe) a copy of a money order, an address that belongs to who knows who and a user name from some guy that was on GBroker at some time. I say protect yourself from potential trouble whenever possible; get a copy of the ffl, ship only to that address and save the copy forever.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If that's a myth, it's news to me. My understanding is that you can only ship to a ffl or yourself. How do you know that you're shipping to a ffl w/o a copy.

You did not read post #9. I will repeat the pertinent information for you:

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

 

[nalioth]

How do you know that you're shipping to a ffl w/o a copy

Well, as an unlicensed person, you can:
Call the receiving gun shop, and when they answer the phone with "Joe's Gun Shop", well, there ya go. How do you find the gun shop? Hint: you're using it right now.

Verify their numbers at the ATF's EZ-Check website



If you're not going to exercise due diligence (by calling or checking out the receiving gun shop), well, you get what you get.

While there's nothing keeping you from getting a copy of the FFL, there's nothing keeping your fishy GB seller from sending you a photoshopped one, either.

Firearm still in your name

C'mon folks, in the free states, gun registration is a TV-perpetrated myth.

 

[MtnCreek]

Used easy check. See below the 'warning' that appeared on the screen above the license information.

Federal Firearms License Results

Warning: No one may use this screen, in lieu of the required certified copy of a Federal Firearms License, to acquire a firearm.

That said, the address of the ffl is included in the provided information. So I agree that just having the ffl number is enough to verify the address.

NavyLT, I'll assume you know what you're talking about as to requirements of unlicensed persons shipping firearms. It is my understanding that you are not correct, but I can't verify without a lot of digging that I'm unwilling to do.

Assuming you're correct, my concerns in post 12 are still valid; would you not agree? I feel strongly that shipping a firearm without having a signed copy of a ffl in hand is asking for trouble. If something happens with a firearm that I ship and ATF comes calling, I'm going to have a signed copy of ffl that I shipped to along with the receipt from UPS, FedEx that shows that I shipped to their address. I feel that advising someone to do otherwise is advising risky behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnCreek
Firearm still in your name

C'mon folks, in the free states, gun registration is a TV-perpetrated myth.

When ATF does a search on a firearm, they start at the top (manufacturer) and work their way down through the documentation. I'm not going to be the one left holding the bag!

 

[nalioth]

It is my understanding that you are not correct, but I can't verify without a lot of digging that I'm unwilling to do.

You're kidding, right?

The "digging" you'd have to do is to find the sticky at the very top of this subforum labeled "ATF FAQs".

To save you from all that work, let me show you the relevant portion:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

I've even highlighted the part you're interested in.

If that doesn't do it, I maintain this resource and keep it up to date: Shipping a gun - who, how, where, when and why which has all the above, plus links to the post office and common carriers firearm shipping policies.

 

[NavyLCDR]

NavyLT, I'll assume you know what you're talking about as to requirements of unlicensed persons shipping firearms. It is my understanding that you are not correct, but I can't verify without a lot of digging that I'm unwilling to do.

So you will admit that your "understanding" is based upon assumption which your are not willing to research to back up with fact.

Assuming you're correct, my concerns in post 12 are still valid; would you not agree?

Nope. Not valid at all. Here's why.

1. I send a firearm to an address based upon a photocopied piece of paper with a signature on it which turns out to not be an FFL....

OR

2. I send a firearm to an address that I obtained from an official ATF database via an FFL number that I received over the phone from the recipient.

Which one do you think is more likely to hold up in court? The photocopied piece of paper, or information in an official government database?

And, since you won't do the research, I will and have done it for you:

18 USC 926:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000926----000-.html

(a) The Attorney General may prescribe only such rules and regulations as are necessary to carry out the provisions of this chapter, including—
(1) regulations providing that a person licensed under this chapter, when dealing with another person so licensed, shall provide such other licensed person a certified copy of this license;

Notice the bolded and underlined part? When an FFL receives a request from a private party for a certified copy of their license, the FFL is more than within their rights to say, "Pack sand, buddy. I am only required to provide that to another FFL." And they would be prudent to do so. You are addressing this issue only from the concerns for CYA of the shipper. There are also concerns for CYA of the licensed dealer as well.

 

[brickeyee]

When ATF does a search on a firearm, they start at the top (manufacturer) and work their way down through the documentation. I'm not going to be the one left holding the bag!

If you are the original purchaser at retail from an FFL the trail will end at you every time.

There is no way to match up later transfers in most states.

 

[MtnCreek]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnCreek
It is my understanding that you are not correct, but I can't verify without a lot of digging that I'm unwilling to do.

You're kidding, right?

Not kidding.

The "digging" you'd have to do is to find the sticky at the very top of this subforum labeled "ATF FAQs".

To save you from all that work, let me show you the relevant portion:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ATF FAQ
Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

I've even highlighted the part you're interested in.

If that doesn't do it, I maintain this resource and keep it up to date: Shipping a gun - who, how, where, when and why which has all the above, plus links to the post office and common carriers firearm shipping policies.

Thanks for highlighting. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. Correct. That's the whole purpose of the licensed dealer in this transaction.

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

So which are you doing? Transfering across state line to a licensee (legal)or non-licensee(federal crime)? I know because I have the ffl and I shipped to the address on the ffl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnCreek
NavyLT, I'll assume you know what you're talking about as to requirements of unlicensed persons shipping firearms. It is my understanding that you are not correct, but I can't verify without a lot of digging that I'm unwilling to do.

So you will admit that your "understanding" is based upon assumption which your are not willing to research to back up with fact.

No. I'm willing to admit that it's my understanding. My understanding is based on discussing with people that should know. I'm willing to 'assume' for the sake of argument that you're correct.

Quote:
Assuming you're correct, my concerns in post 12 are still valid; would you not agree?

Nope. Not valid at all. Here's why.

1. I send a firearm to an address based upon a photocopied piece of paper with a signature on it which turns out to not be an FFL....

OR

2. I send a firearm to an address that I obtained from an official ATF database via an FFL number that I received over the phone from the recipient.

Which one do you think is more likely to hold up in court? The photocopied piece of paper, or information in an official government database?

When did we start discussing documenting the FFL; it was in my original post. Here she is:

Make sure you have a signed copy of the ffl prior to shipping. Only ship to the address shown on the ffl. Ship without the ffl or ship to address other than the one on the ffl and bad things could happen.

I stand behind it 100%. Good advice and here's the responce:

There's the first myth. Not required for private parties shipping to FFLs. IF the private party wants to verify the FFL, which is NOT required, only the FFL number is required and the private party can use EZ Check to verify the FFL.

If the above is how you'ld handle the transaction, go for. I think it's bad advice. Get a copy of the ffl and ship to that address.

When an FFL receives a request from a private party for a certified copy of their license, the FFL is more than within their rights to say, "Pack sand, buddy. I am only required to provide that to another FFL." And they would be prudent to do so.

Private Party is free to do the same.

You are addressing this issue only from the concerns for CYA of the shipper. There are also concerns for CYA of the licensed dealer as well.

Correct. This thread was started by a nonlicensed shipper. I was addressing his situation and my advice was sound.

 

[NavyLCDR]

The point is all you are getting is a photocopied piece of paper in the mail or via fax with a signature on it. That's all you are getting. That is no proof of an FFL. It's just a photocopied piece of paper with a signature on it.

 

[MtnCreek]

The point is all you are getting is a photocopied piece of paper in the mail or via fax with a signature on it. That's all you are getting. That is no proof of an FFL. It's just a photocopied piece of paper with a signature on it.

I'm with ya. Now I'm going back to work.
Thanks.

 

[nalioth]

If the above is how you'ld handle the transaction, go for. I think it's bad advice. Get a copy of the ffl and ship to that address.

I think this is bad advice.

If the receiving FFL doesn't want to send a copy of their license to an unlicensed person, your advice will leave the shipper high-and-dry.

We've offered perfectly legal alternatives that are easier to achieve.

 

[NavyLCDR]

We've offered perfectly legal alternatives that are easier to achieve.

And more reliable.

If I want to verify an FFL, I am going to enter the number into EZ Check, verify it, and send the gun to the address that EZ Check gives me. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever if that FFL number came from a photocopied piece of paper I got in the mail, email or fax machine, or if that number came from a stranger's voice on the other end of the phone.

All that requesting a signed copy of an FFL license is going to do is to cause inconvenience and delay in the transaction.

 

[357Shooter]

Well, Hmm,
Thank you all for the input, I appreciate it. It is not apparently a "done" subject, and these situations and laws do change, sorry if I brought up something already asked, but I learned a bunch and I hope others did also. Thanks again for all the great insight. I also think "Debate" is a good learning tool if you read throughout the lines. Thanks again.

 

[MtnCreek]

NavyLT and Nalioth may very well be right about just getting the ffl #. Either way, just make sure you know that you're shipping to a ffl and keep the records of that (including shipping receipt).