Can we ever "win"

[Nushif]

You know, I was thinking about this, an endstate, if you will. Here's my take on our "winning" endstate:

A political climate in which 90+% of the populace is either a gun owner or familiar with the realities of carrying a firearm and where there is no real chance of anti gun legislation getting serious thought.

Imagine the anti lobbies getting as much attention as say ... the "socialist" party in these parts.

Now. The problem with this is that it's entirely undemocratic. I hate to say it ... but if we ever did create this endstate we really wouldn't be giving whatever percentile of the population who really is anti gun a fair voice. And that'd be incredibly hypocritical.
As is, I think the "ideal" state is a political climate where carry in one form or another is legal everywhere (as well as attainable) and where the issue of open carry is contested.
Not because I disagree with it, but because it is democratic that we let the populace decide and actually use their power. Because otherwise it's just a tyranny of the (in this case pro gun) masses.

 

[Gord]

And that'd be incredibly hypocritical.

No...?

Democracy works on a 50% +1 system. It pretty much sucks all the way around, but especially for whomever's on the losing side of a debate by virtue of even one single vote.

As long as 2A is a state issue instead of a Federal blanket policy, the anti-gun folks always have the option of moving - just like we do. The political climate was a huge factor in my move out of California in 2007. If they're ever put into that position, then eff them - they can either deal with it or go in search of greener pastures like everybody else.

 

[Nushif]

I guess our schools of democracy are different then.
I personally believe much more in the "representative democracy" model where a percentile of the representatives mirrors that of the voting public's.
A winner take all is indeed a "tyranny of the masses." And as you so nicely said. IT sucks for everyone, especially those not represented.

 

[Gord]

"representative democracy"

gives you gerrymandering, lobbyists and so on. Yeah, you can vote 'em out of office, but will it happen before their damage is already done?

Representative democracy also gives us wonderful things like the 2000 election, where Dubya received half a million fewer actual votes but won on electoral votes (very narrowly). Under the electoral vote system, California is only four points short of being able to equal the entire rest of the western United States; and we all know how often everyone else shares California's point of view on anything...

I'm not saying that I have any better solution, just that I'm not going to cry too hard when it's the antis' turn to be on the receiving end.

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

Nothing is permanent. We like to think that history is one unending march of progress, but there have been regressions - even in the United States. At the end of Reconstruction, liberty was dealt a blow in the South - it wasn't until the 1960's that African-Americans regained many of the political rights that they used to have. It suffered again in the 1910's when Woodrow Wilson ordered the Federal Government to be segregated.

We're in a good phase right now - the party putatively in favor of gun control had control of the legislature and the executive recently, and they largely sat on their hands on the issue, because like all sensible political animals, they prefer to start fights they can win. In fact, some favorable court decisions came down in the meantime.

Doesn't mean it will always be so. Remain vigilant.

 

[One-Time]

Despite many pro(but really anti) gunners, and the Orgs who claim pro gun but are really pro selves we are currently sorta winning

 

[maganoo82]

Before I post my reply, I want to say it is just what I think and I know not everybody if anybody will agree with me. That being said, here goes.

As far as us getting a "win", no we never will. Unless the people and politicians of this country go back to a constitutional way of thinking. We all know that the constitution and the bill of rights is the basis for our laws, civil rights, and democracy. If our forefathers had not done that we could have just as well ended up as another great britain, or even worse, maybe even a communist state. But guys like jefferson had the foresight to see that coming and put together protection for the new free peoples of america and the country as a whole truly belived in those ideals. The problem now lies with lazyness and greed. The polititians and people of this country now are either too lazy to stand up for whats right and what they belive in, or, too greedy to the point they only stand up and back the constitution when it will benefit them. We have to stand up for the constitution no matter what, whether we like the potential outcome or not because all our rights would be in the balance. Its a give and take. The westboro baptist church is a perfect example. Most people think it was wrong for the supreme court to back them regardless of what the constitution says because of how wrong the actions of westboro are. Personally I am glad the decision was what it was, NOT because I agree with what westboro is doing, but because it gives me hope for the constitution. If they decided otherwise we woulda been screwed, there woulda been the freedom of speech gone so what woulda been next? Damn cryin shame but glad they backed it. We need the country as a whole to go back to a constitutional/right and wrong way of thinking or more than just RKBA will be lost, america will be lost. Untill people stop worrying about what can such and such do for me, and more about what they can do for such and such, it will always be a uphill battle. Kennedy- ask not what my country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Not just a cheesy quote, words we need to live by. People like us just need to stick together and keep working hard to get all the others to see the bigger picture, and not just about the 2A. I still have hope that we can make it happen, in time.

As for westboro baptist, I did fight to defend our rights against all enemies, and they should have the right to their opinion, but I would still like to have a fist to face.....err face to face conversation with all them. RIP to all our fighting men and women that we have lost.

Happy shooting everyone

 

[kingcheese]

to change an antis mind it takes education, most dont want to be educated, so the closest way to winning is keep any more people from becoming anti second amendment


most people who are against the use of firearms have some missconception about the typicall gun owner, and they are as stuburn as we are, so we cant win right now, but if we wait for the older anti gun leaders to fade out, die off, then all that will be left is us

 

[Sky]

Hey look at it on the bright side. When all the battles are won ( never happen G.I.) then life gets kinda boring! Great post guys/gals!

 

[geekWithA.45]

We will always have opponents and their tools, but yes, we can in fact "win".

We win when the vast majority of our society understands, values and practices a robust and vibrant right of arms, when the contrary position is understood to be defective, and those holding it are held in universal suspicion and contempt.

I've seen it on small, localized scales. It's delicious.

 

[M2 Carbine]

to change an antis mind it takes education, most dont want to be educated, so the closest way to winning is keep any more people from becoming anti second amendment

so we cant win right now, but if we wait for the older anti gun leaders to fade out, die off, then all that will be left is us

No, we are the ones dying out.

The new generations in public school have been taught, for some time now, that anything to do with guns is bad. We have all heard of such as 4 year old boys being expelled from school for just pointing their finger at another kid or drawing a picture of a gun.

My friends teen age daughter, who I taught to shoot, came home upset because the teacher is teaching that the 2nd Amendment is "so the military can have guns".

Brainwashing virtually all the country's young, in a captive environment, is a powerful anti gun tool.

And this anti gun "education" continues into college.

 

[ForumSurfer]

successfully end the debate

No.

It is a free country. People have the right to disagree. I only object to their disagreements when it infringes on my right to keep and bear arms.

To my thought, point, or whatever it is. We already have what we want. We have the right to keep and bear arms.

No we don't. Depending on where you are, your right is thoroughly crippled. Whether it may be no open carry, no concealed carry (or conceal carry permits that are impossible to obtain) or not being able to store/transport loaded weapons.

 

[C5rider]

I have several hobbies. Interestingly, each one is in a current struggle with opposing forces that want to abolish, or severely limit the legal activities of those who enjoy them. I'm not talking about severe, extreme hobbies like BASE jumping or anything like that. I enjoy flying R/C airplanes and riding motorized bicycles. Each one has a group that feels that I should NOT be able to enjoy doing such things. Then, I get back into shooting and find out that again, there are those who feel they know better than I about my safety. :banghead:

The thing that frustrates me most is that many of these folks are so "vanilla" that they really don't have anything they're passionate about (other than watching out for what we're doing) so you can't say, "Well, then YOU give up YOUR ......!"

Wonder if these are the same people who camp out in the left hand lane and refuse to get over because "they're going the speed limit"?

 

[Ole Coot]

I don't think we are winning, only on defense. I have learned over the years, in life, combat or just living one cannot win playing defense against constant attacks. It is our right and we are way too passive. I don't believe in being obnoxious, loud and profane yet the "people" who wish to remove our rights are. We can't sit back, we need to press our rights. How? I honestly don't know, beyond me as I have had firearms in my life since birth. Where I live now everyone I know is pro gun. Surely someone can think of a plan to preserve our rights once and for all. It has worked for discrimination of any type by law so why can't we use the same argument? We are discriminated against by our own government. My personal opinion only.

 

[Heretic]

I agree with whats being said here save one. I keep hearing the word democracy. We live in a Republic. A democracy it is said, is two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner. In a republic, the wolves cannot eat the sheep(regardless of the outcome of the vote),because the sheep has rights.

The answer is simple. Follow the example set by Kennesaw GA. They made a law the compells every citizen to own a gun. I realize that this is not realistic, but is an ideal to shoot for. The closer we come, the better off we will all be. Anyone who absoulutly refuses to own can be invited to leave the country as they are not wanted here. I'm sure they will be welcome somewhere "safe" like england or china.

 

[DammitBoy]

I'll consider we are winning when the 'sporting clause' gets eliminated.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

At The Risk . . .

. . . of repeating myself . . .

The bad news: our education and mental health systems are rigged against us.

The good news: there are committed, effective, and active groups currently working to reverse the educational and mental health trends. They're slowly winning back lost ground in literacy and sanity.

We're currently winning.

Don't expect the evil, stupid, and lazy elements around us to just give up. Just know that they are there, that they have been there a long time, that they will be with us for quite a while longer, but since evil, stupidity, and laziness are all engendered by miscalculations of one degree or another, realize that making mistakes is baked into the attitudes that drive them.

Yeah, it's a lot of work, but clarity of vision and purpose, unbreakable resolve, and unfaltering persistence will see us through.

I know that I tend to get a little long-winded, and I know that this results in some of my stuff not getting read, but I see a trend of defeatism that I think needs a kick in the pants.

We don't have to lose.

We can win.

And, if we commit to it, we will.

 

[earlthegoat2]

No.

Too much money changes hands on both sides of the second amendment table from crooked politicians and pork barrel politics in general.

Pro 2nd amendment people will even change money with antis to further their own agenda.

Simple Politics 101.

 

[Taurus 66]

Can we ever "win"

No, so you must defend what you have or lose it. If you surrender ANY of your Constitutional rights you will lose them all.

 

[Old krow]

Win what? Will we be any more free than we started? In that sense, I'd say "no, we cannot win, but we do not have to lose either." Freedom will always be in a constant state of struggle. The best that we can ever do to to dig in, hunker down, fight, and pass that legacy off to the next generation.

If by winning we simply mean maintaining our state of freedom, or possibly even regaining the lost ground, then yes we can be winning. But, we will never be able to say that we won. As long as we are free, we will be fighting for it!

As for westboro baptist, I did fight to defend our rights against all enemies, and they should have the right to their opinion, but I would still like to have a fist to face.....err face to face conversation with all them. RIP to all our fighting men and women that we have lost.

I believe that THIS is the one of the better examples of freedom. As someone who has taken the same oath I am happy that they have the right to the speak freely and protest the funerals. I am exceedingly happier that groups like the Patriot Guard have that same right and exercise it accordingly. I do not believe that there is a more beautiful example of the First Amendment out there.

No, we are the ones dying out.

It is imperative that do not simply die out. IMHO, this is the battle ground.

The new generations in public school have been taught, for some time now, that anything to do with guns is bad.

This is true, but, I take an active role in my son's education. He may have had a teacher or two, or three, or twelve TELL him just how bad guns are, but I have SHOWN him just how safe they can be.

 

[Cheap&Reliable]

Why would we want to win? If we were to win then there would be no struggle, if there was no struggle then soon the young will take the 2nd and frankly all the amendments for granted. we may win the rights but the younger generations would forget them. The strong movement that is Gun ownership would slowly whittle away. Then when people have forgotten the wonders and the joy of firearm ownership it will take virtually no effort to take away the right. I rather us be on the winning side of the struggle indefinitely than for us to win a future loss. But maybe thats just my inner Libertarian

 

[azmjs]

We've already won, we won with Heller, and McDonald.

Heller stated that guns shall not be outlawed, because individual ownership of guns for the purpose of self defense, specifically handguns but not exclusively, is a right protected by the constitution.

 

[Patriotme]

Can we ever win?
No. We can however keep fighting the good fight and we can resist the anti gunners.
I don't consider this as disheartening. We can never stop rape, robbery, murder, etc entirely but we can work against criminals. We can have a War On Poverty that lasts decades without success and I won't even go into our education system.
Sometimes you just have to keep fighting for what's right.
The anti gunners are funded by a lot of very wealthy people and government organizations. They have most of the media on their side, our education system and tens of millions of sheeple. They have both private organizations and government officials that work towards gun bans. Even the UN supports their cause.
I don't however believe that the anti gunners are our worst enemies. Those that like their guns and want their 2nd Amendment rights while sending anti gunners to Capital Hill do as much harm as the Brady Campaign, VPC and the AHSA. I consider these gun owners as parasites. They want their rights while finding reasons to justify stripping others of their Constitutional Rights. I know many of these people and sometimes take them to the range. I also listen to them defend Obama (with cult like devotion) and his support for total gun bans in DC and Chicago. I listen to them defend the anti gunners on the SCOTUS and try to justify keeping DC residents from enjoying the same rights that they enjoy.

 

[x_wrench]

Well, we can win the war, but there will always be pockets of resistance, stabbing us in the sides, every chance they get. And unfortuneatly, the largest, most powerful of our opponents is the media. If you can figure out how to stop their insacious whining, you will likely be voted in to the head of the n.r.a.

 

[ZeSpectre]

There's always someone who wants control, or some elitist who thinks "okay for ME but not for Thee".

With that in mind I'll quote myself from a related topic a while back....

Any of us who've been fighting the good fight to protect our rights are subject to what I call "Activism Fatigue". That point at which you are just exhausted, depressed, feel like you are making no progress and that the tide of moonbats and blissninnys is simply endless. You find yourself thinking "so what's the point?"

There are things you can do to help deal with this fatigue, or even avoid it in the first place.

Make a realistic assessment of what RKBA activism really means. If you are looking for a "short and victorious war" you are destined for disappointment. The battle for our rights has been going on for 100+ years. Operating with the realistic understanding that rights activism is like doing dishes or laundry (there will always be more to do) starts you off on the right foot with the necessary "long term view" of the situation.

Focus your energies on a targeted task. Much like washing your car with a pressure sprayer, if you diffuse your energies and attention too widely you aren't ever going to accomplish anything but a "focused stream" works a lot better to "wash off that mud". Pick one "pet" item (as an example, Concealed Carry in National Parks is mine). You can certainly work on other items as well but keep yourself focused and on track.

Define some intermediate "goals". Let's be honest, a complete and across-the-board WIN of the rights war is unlikely in your lifetime. That doesn't mean you can't set interim goals and celebrate your WIN when you achieve those goals. The accumulation of small victories is every bit as important.

Understand that sometimes the point actually isn't to win, the point is to keep the pressure on...constantly.

"Sing in Chorus". What I mean is that no one person holds a long note in a chorus. When one singer is running out of breath and needs to inhale, another singer will pick up (also known as staggered breathing). If you need to breathe don't be afraid to "hand off" to someone else for a bit. Go on vacation, shut off the computer, play with your kids/dog/wife/friends, and then resume the "note" again later when you are recharged. Do this BEFORE you pass out!

Expect setbacks but know they aren't forever. It seems to us like the tide of moonbats and anti-rights types is endless. It can feel overwhelming. But remember, to them it seems like WE are also an endless tide. You are NOT alone in the fight and you do have backup/support (see the "sing in chorus" note).