Carbine for Home Defense??

[Navy87Guy]

I currently have my Saiga S12 rigged in my closet as my HD weapon. We have kids in the house, so it's locked up, with the magazine nearby - so I can probably have it in action in about a minute.

Today I traded one of my AK's for a Beretta CX4 carbine. It's the 9mm version that uses 92FS magazines. It also has accessory rails for mounting optics (I have an EO Tech that's not getting any use) and a weapon light.

What are your thoughts on using a carbine for home defense? Here are my thoughts:
- Easier to manuever around the house than the shotgun
- Easier for my wife to handle
- Magazines are easier to carry -- 15 rounds per mag and I have about 10 laying around the garage
- Better ballistic performance for the 9mm round than a handgun could deliver
- Wider choice of HD ammo (I have #4 shot in the S12, with 00 buck and slugs available)

For those who advocate rifles over shotguns or handguns, what do you think?

Thanks.

Jim

 

[BrianB]

What is the home made of? How far is the closest neighbor? With kids, is there a floorplan that could place the bad guy between you and them?

Generally, a shotgun has advantages, given the flexibility of ammunition. Problem is that its length could be used against you in close quarters (bad guy grabs it in the dark as your wife comes around the corner).

The handgun is easier to maneuver with, but the ammo isn't quite as flexible. However, if you can more consistently place a hollowpoint, you have less over-penetration to worry about.

The carbine seems to suffer from the disadvantages of the handgun and shotgun, but just my $.02

 

[Navy87Guy]

What is the home made of? How far is the closest neighbor? With kids, is there a floorplan that could place the bad guy between you and them?

Standard drywall/2x4 construction. The layout has the typical problem with lines of fire -- especially on the top floor with 4 bedrooms.

Overpenetration was one of the reasons I opted for #4 shot over 00 buck in the 12 gauge. I know that short of frangible/Glaser rounds, there's not much in a standard house that will contain a 9mm round.

Jim

 

[BrianB]

I'm in the same boat. I have the #4 followed by 00. Such a tradeoff. Still wrestling with it. My tight corners make the long guns impractical.

Keeping the handgun as primary for now, and needing lots more practice/training.

The wife is so tiny, we'll have to get her something she can call her own.

 

[sacp81170a]

A pistol caliber carbine is, like any other choice of HD weapon, a set of compromises.

Pluses:

1. Light recoil. This can be an issue for a weapon that might be used by all members of the family.

2. Cheap(comparatively) ammo for practice. If you choose 9mm you'll probably be able to afford to practice more.

3. Commonality of magazines/ammo. If you have lots of mags for your pistol already, it won't be as expensive to equip your carbine.

4. Higher velocities and improved performance over the shorter barrel of a handgun. Add 50 fps per inch of barrel seems to be a good rule of thumb. Once you get past about 18 inches, this drops off, but you can still push a pistol caliber cartridge significantly faster than with a handgun.

5. Less danger if you miss. A lot of arguments have been made about overpenetration but this fact remains: a pistol caliber bullet that "flies free", i.e. misses everything or meets minimal resistance(think windows) has a shorter lethal range than a rifle caliber bullet. Lethal ranges for rifle calibers can be well over 1000 meters, depending on the angle of the dangle. Pistol caliber rounds may have a lethal range of less than half of that, simply as a function of ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity. They just don't carry as far.

6. Not as loud as rifle caliber rounds. Less problems with hearing damage.

7. Enhanced accuracy. It's easier to hit things with a long gun than with a handgun.

Minuses:

1. Not as handy as a pistol. It takes some practice to negotiate the average dwelling with a longer weapon. Carbines mitigate this, but they're still more liable to be snatched than a handgun.

2. Not as effective as a rifle caliber or a shotgun. Shotguns hit (and kick) harder, rifles penetrate most body armor.

Those are what I can think of off the top of my head. So far, more pluses than minuses. If a pistol caliber carbine is your choice I think it's a good one. Don't forget lever action carbines in pistol calibers. My wife has chosen a Marlin 1894C guide gun in .44 mag. It's light, handy, and with .44 special cowboy loads, a 250 gr. LRN at ~1000 fps is nothing to sneeze at. She has problems with the manual of arms on a semi-auto, but a lever action is simple and easy to learn.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

A home intruder isn't likely to grab any barrels whether shotgun,rifle or carbine. While it certainly is possible,it isn't very likely and it makes for better television than reality. A carbine is a very good choice for HD,a good compromise between manueverabilty and power.

 

[strat81]

More police departments are switching to 5.56 carbines (AR-15) from 9mm carbines (MP5, etc) due to penetration issues. Check out the Box O' Truth and make a decision based on that.

But yes, I'd probably take the 9mm CX4 over a shotgun. More ammo capacity, less recoil. Load it up with some hot +P or +P+ JHPs if you stick with 9mm.

 

[C-D-P]

#4 buck is a good choice for home defense. But if you have long hallways you may run into a problem with under penetration. IIRC 3 yd is about perfect with it.

 

[Dksimon]

I think that the CX4 would make a good HD gun and if you do decided to replace it sometime they are great fun just to plink wit.

 

[thebear101]

I have the uzi carbine, and the new thompson 1927 pistol with drum mag that are both short, and to me the uzi is reliable if time was taken to polish the ramp and adust the hight of the magazine, the thompson is reliable and the one I have open to use right now is the AR15 pistol with beta mag flashlight and lazer dot sight, all are heavy though, and all are about carbine size, from Andy

 

[Jeff White]

I really don't see the advantage of a pistol caliber carbine for defensive use. It has no ballistic advantage over your hand gun, requires a bit more training to maneuver with in a tight space. I keep a carbine for home defense, but it's a Colt 6920, the same one that rode in my squad car.

Pistol caliber carbines have been fun plinkers for me. In a pinch I'd use one for a defensive weapon, but given a choice, I'm going to use a rifle round to take advantage of the ballistics.

Jeff

 

[C-D-P]

Jeff. A pisol caliber car would have several advantages.

1. Longer barrel, higher muzzle velocity.

2. Longer sight radius, more room for error when aiming.

3. More stable platform for follow on shots because there is more mass to the weapon, so felt recoil will be less.

This does not mean that I think it would be better than a rifle cal car.

 

[sacp81170a]

I really don't see the advantage of a pistol caliber carbine for defensive use.

Jeff:

For me and you an M4gery or some other .223 or 7.62x39 (don't wanna forget the AK crowd here) variant may be ideal. In fact an M4gery is what I choose. My wife has a problem with the charging handle, magazine swaps, safety, etc. She much prefers the simplicity of a lever action that still has respectable power.

Choice will vary by user and intended use. In the end, if you use something that's effective that you can hit with you'll be ahead of the game.

 

[Kragman71]

When we had the "race riots" here in the Northeast.I kept a double barreled shotgun loaded with double 0 buck and #4 shot.
I also had a loaded clip near my 30 cal carbine.
Lately,my only home defence is My S&W model 36.p pistol.
Frank

 

[Deanimator]

I have a 16" AR carbine that I bought for self-defense. I lived someplace else when I bought it. It (and any other long gun) is wholely inappropriate as my first line of defense where I live now.

If you've got room to maneuver, a long gun is a good choice, especially an AR type firearm which allows you to switch top ends and calibers at will. If I wanted to I could switch to a pistol caliber upper or something like the .50 Beowulf.

Where I am now, a long gun is virtually useless, unless I want to stay in one end of the place, not knowing what's going on elsewhere, or even if there's a problem. I'll stick with my Glocks and my 4" Model 29.

 

[Tomac]

Although pricey, I find the FN PS90 nearly ideal for HD: Short, manueverable, negligible recoil, mild muzzle blast, no muzzle flash, 50rd mag, easy to aim/fire effectively with one hand or prone if needbe, fully ambidextrous and fires a cartridge specifically designed not to overpenetrate.
Tomac

 

[dvcrsn]

Particularly in places like California--carbines like my Marlin in 44mag (also applies in 45lc and 357) do have certain advantages over AR variants in court--and a 44mag or357 with hollowpoints make for a nice stopper

 

[C-D-P]

The 5.7 makes an ice pick. Not worth a damn, but fun to shoot.

 

[Tomac]

The 5.7 makes an ice pick. Not worth a damn, but fun to shoot.

Thank you for such an objective & informative post. Got any hard data to back it up?...
Tomac

 

[C-D-P]

5.7 55 gr must impact the target at at least 1700 fps for it to fragment during its yaw. MV from the P90s 10.4" barrel firing that 55gr projectile is only 1000 fps.

At that velocity you will not see yaw until 20cm of penetration.

Hence ice pick!

 

[Jeff White]

Thank you for such an objective & informative post. Got any hard data to back it up?...
Tomac

There is all kind of hard data. Do a search on 5.7 and you'll find it. The 5.7mm is not a suitable defensive round. Jacksonville FL SWAT probably has more actual shootings with it then any other agency and they dropped the round like a live grenade.

Jeff

 

[The Giant Skunk]

concerns about caliber aside, the CX4 is a very nice carbine. I have one with a good holosight and a light. It feeds 124 gr hydra-shoks 100%. My wife likes to shoot it and best of all it is convertable for us left handed shooters. One of the most fun guns I own and eminently practical.

 

[Tomac]

5.7 55 gr must impact the target at at least 1700 fps for it to fragment during its yaw. MV from the P90s 10.4" barrel firing that 55gr projectile is only 1000 fps.
At that velocity you will not see yaw until 20cm of penetration.
Hence ice pick!

1) 55gr fragmentation is an engineering accident caused by a sufficiently thin jacket under the cannelure, not a design feature. Wolf 55gr .223, for example, has too thick a jacket to fragment.
2) The 5.7 was not designed to use a 55gr bullet.
3) 32gr SS190/SS192/SS195 (rds designed for the P90/PS90/FN Five-seveN) chrono at 2,300fps from the P90, 2,600fps from the PS90.

There is all kind of hard data. Do a search on 5.7 and you'll find it. The 5.7mm is not a suitable defensive round. Jacksonville FL SWAT probably has more actual shootings with it then any other agency and they dropped the round like a live grenade.
Jeff

There will always be caliber debates (9mm v 10mm v .45 v .357 v etc ad nauseum with documented failures to stop for every one of them) but the bottom line is that the only certain one-shot stop is a hit to the CNS, even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10+ seconds of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to return the favor. Shot placement & sufficient penetration, all else is secondary. I'm sure I could find reports of any number of PD's or agencies that have dropped one caliber or the other for whatever reasons (IIRC the FBI dropped the 9mm after the notorious Miami shootout but how many still consider the 9mm adequate for defense?), numerous PD's and agencies still use the 5.7 but I asked for hard data, not "it's out there, go look for it". I've never claimed the 5.7 is better than any other *pistol* caliber but here are a few reports of it's use:

Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."

Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.

Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived.

I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."

Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.
The Jacksonville, FL shooting(s) are often severely represented. Some 5.7 opponents even go so far as to claim that the incident involved "all 50 rounds into the BG" and that the victim(s) merely reacting by "asking the officers to stop shooting them". Not only do statements from Jacksonville PD indicate that none of these subjects survived, but no one from or in contact with Jacksonville PD has given details on where or exactly how many times the subjects in these shootings were hit.

To categorically state that a given caliber is unsuited for defensive use w/o a statistically significant amount of data to back it up is questionable at best...
Tomac

 

[sacp81170a]

Particularly in places like California--carbines like my Marlin in 44mag

Forgot about that part, good point. I would also argue that a lever action is still a very viable option for tactical situations, at least as much as any pump shotgun. Probably the biggest reason that military forces switched to bolt action rifles wasn't so much because of their superior accuracy or usefulness but because the advent of the machine gun made standing up and firing or riding one's horse across an open field pretty much suicidal. The difficulty of using a lever action from a prone position coupled with the limitations in cartridge selection pretty much spelled the end of the lever action for military arms. It is, however, easier to use than a bolt action rifle from a standing position. Grandpa's old 30-30 probably would make a pretty good HD gun, especially with some of the newer LeverRevolution ammo.

(Hope this isn't OT, but the OP did ask about carbines.)

 

[Jeff White]

tomac,
Read this thread: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000050#000000
Make sure you read the linked info in that thread.

Jeff