Carbine load testing with mixed range brass/plated bullets in 9mm-40S&W-45ACP

[LiveLife]

lauderdale, Jake emailed back and they have some 45ACP 185 gr and should be back on the website.

Will put an order in and thanks for the offer!

 

[LiveLife]

UPDATE: Good news! I have been working out of town the past 2 years and only been able to shoot on my days off (recently wife got 50 chickens/2 goats and been busy building their houses and reason for no recent range testing) but got a job in town so will be able to spend more quality time with wife/family and do more range testing on a weekly basis (BLM shooting areas are about 30-40 minutes away) if wife will slow down the pace for honey do's.

I am ordering more plated bullets for the new Plated bullet differences - Mythbusting at 25/50 yards thread (essentially every plated brand except Frontier - Berry's/HSM/PowerBond/Rainier/RMR/X-Treme) so I will be able to do other brand plated bullet testing for this thread as well in addition to Berry's HBRN-TP/RMR HM RN I have on hand.

Big thanks to members Duvel/kcofohio/lauderdale for sending plated/jacketed bullets for testing and I will start a new jacketed vs plated thread as I work on ordering jacketed bullets in coming months (All this bullet buying is really cutting into my retirement vintage Starcraft fishing boat/vintage Sears garden tractor restoration fund - my other "fun" hobbies).

 

[LiveLife]

RANGE TEST UPDATE: I bought a new scope (Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 6-18x50 AO) for JR carbine as I plan to use the CenterPoint 4-16x40 AO for PSA carbine and when I went to take off the CP scope from JR carbine, I found the Allen bolts on the scope mount rings were loose! (I did check the riser bolts on each range session but not the scope ring mount bolts - So much for this human error ) So the shot groups I got on this thread so far is very suspect and will likely have to redo the 50/100 yard testing.

To zero the scope, I loaded up RMR's own new 115 gr FMJ and HM RN with 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 at 1.130" (.376" taper crimp for .3555" sized FMJ and .377" for .356" sized HM RN).

While I shot mostly at 50/100 yards for this thread, I decided to start at 25 yards for the new "Plated bullet differences" thread. After the first shot of 115 gr HM RN, I couldn't see the subsequent shots. After some head scratching, I realized the subsequent shots were going in the same hole! (I guess tight scope mount bolts sure helped. )

Another thing I confirmed (as Walkalong already mentioned) is that I really need a fixed stock for any precision shooting as the collapsible stock's looseness hindered accurate shooting (especially evident after loose scope mount bolts were tightened ). Due to this reason, I ordered two Magpul CTR buttstocks for JR/PSA carbines for testing as they are MOE buttstocks with locking levers for greater tightness but I think I will order Magpul fixed stock like this for test carbines if CTR buttstocks are not steady enough for precision shooting - https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-fixed-carbine-stock-mil-spec

I will also consider rear bag/adjustable mount as my support hand on the bottom of the stock is another variable.

So I got initial 5 shot group at 25 yards less than 1/2 inch with RMR 115 gr HM RN and just over 1/2 inch 5 shot group after adjusting POA. With RMR 115 gr FMJ, I got 10 shot group of just over 1 inch but I was shooting sloppy just to verify zero of scope, not for utmost precision (that will be done with fixed stock and rear bag/mount).

Chrono data:
RMR 115 gr FMJ: 1251-1279-1257-1254-1272 fps
RMR 115 gr HM RN: 1303-1289-1298-1311-1323 fps

I did a quick 50 yard group with RMR 115 gr FMJ and got just over 1 inch single hole group (once again, this is with sloppy adjustable stock).

I need to do some honey do's for wife and will post pictures of targets tonight.

 

[Walkalong]

I will order Magpul fixed stock like this for test carbines if CTR buttstocks are not steady enough for precision shooting - https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-...stock-mil-spec

I got a Moe fixed stock like in the link for my 9MM AR and it works OK on the bags, but is shorter than I like. A fixed A2 is better IMHO, both from a length standpoint and how it rides the bag.

I have a Simmons Whitetail 6.5-20X50 that they often put on sale for $110 at Midway, and have it in Zee rings on YHM risers. I can move it from AR to AR to do accuracy testing. It has nice clear glass and can focus down the 25 yards.

 

[LiveLife]

I will see how the Magpul CTR stocks with locking levers work out.

If not, I could consider moving the fixed stock from 20" Bushmaster HBAR for testing but think I will keep the JR carbine as accuracy testing platform (like railed Sig 1911 for 45ACP testing) due to caliber change option with barrel swaps.

As to scopes, I paid $100 for 18X Bushnell but would have happily paid $110 for 20X Simmons (currently $250). But for my 100 yard carbine testing, I think the 18X Bushnell (and even the 16X CenterPoint) should be more than plenty AS LONG as I keep the bolts tight. :banghead:

 

[egd]

I think others have said it too, but it doesn't hurt to say it again. THANKS for all the work you put into these two tests.

 

[LiveLife]

Following are 9mm plated loads along with jacketed reference loads tested so far (ambient temperature in parenthesis):

115 gr Winchester FMJ 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.135": 1315-1234-1334-1307-1296 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
115 gr RMR FMJ 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130": 1251-1279-1257-1254-1272 fps (79 F - JR carbine)
124 gr RMR JHP 3.2 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.125": 820-838-784-807-860 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)

100 gr RMR HM RN 5.2 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.050": 1459-1424-1423-1465-1413 fps (56 F - JR carbine)
100 gr RMR HM RN 5.5 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.050": 1493-1468-1432-1479-1454 fps (58 F - JR carbine)

100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1442-1428-1478-1431-1462 fps (58 F - JR carbine)
100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1478-1475-1480-1471-1467 fps (58 F - JR carbine)
100 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.050": 1458-1450-1445-1442-1448 fps (71 F - JR carbine)

115 gr Berry's HBRN 4.6 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.135": 1264-1270-1233-1246-1288 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
115 gr Berry's HBRN 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130": 1306-1328-1322-1313-1317 (75 F - JR carbine)

115 gr Berry's HBRN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1275-1261-1316-1287-1294 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
115 gr Berry's HBRN 4.5-4.6 gr Promo @ 1.130": 1414-1377-1375-1420-1372 (75 F - JR carbine)

115 gr RMR HM RN 4.6 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.135": 1187-1240-1290-1239-1260 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130": 1275-1263-1253-1290-1248 fps (56 F - JR carbine)
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130": 1303-1289-1298-1311-1323 fps (79 F - JR carbine)
115 gr RMR HM RN 5.0 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.135: 1380-1368-1378-1387-1399 fps (71 F - JR carbine)

115 gr RMR HM RN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1204-1276-1259-1273-1247 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.0-4.2 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1331-1358-1346 fps (59 F - PSA carbine - ran out of test rounds)
115 gr RMR HM RN 4.5-4.7 gr Promo @ 1.135": 1351-1364-1363-1357-1342 (71 F - JR carbine)

124 gr RMR HM RN 4.3 gr HP-38 @ 1.160": 1078-1116-1124-1104-1103 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)

124 gr RMR HM RN 3.9-4.0 gr Promo @ 1.160": 1231-1201-1210-1227-1193 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)
124 gr RMR HM RN 4.2-4.3 gr Promo @ 1.160": 1258-1263-1251-1244-1266 fps (68 F - PSA carbine)
124 gr RMR HM RN 4.2-4.3 gr Promo @ 1.160": 1298-1277-1261-1276-1293 fps (68 F - JR carbine)

124 gr RMR HM RN 5.2 gr BE-86 @ 1.160": 1179-1149-1178-1170-1197 fps (59 F - PSA carbine)

 

[egd]

In your first group, 124gr. RMR jhp--is 3.2 correct? should that be 4.2 which is closer to my load for 124gr RMR rn.
Although, after a second look, those speeds are a lot lower than mine, so maybe it is correct. Sorry for engaging fingers before brain.

 

[longdayjake]

In your first group, 124gr. RMR jhp--is 3.2 correct? should that be 4.2 which is closer to my load for 124gr RMR rn.

Look at the velocities. My guess is 3.2 is correct for the velocities he was getting.

 

[LiveLife]

Yes, since it was initial testing with W231/HP-38, I used lower velocity/conservative load data before using higher velocity loads with slower powders.

Since I could not find published load data for 124 gr JHP, I referenced 125 gr Hornady HAP load data - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

125 GR. HDY HAP W231/HP-38 COL 1.069" Start 2.8 gr (753 fps) 25,300 PSI - Max 3.3 gr (876 fps) 33,600 PSI

I am thinking about testing 124 gr JHP with BE-86 at 1.125" using perhaps 4.7/5.0/5.3/5.5 gr charges - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...wderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=38&cartridge=23

9mm Luger 124 gr JHP BE-86 OAL 1.120" Max 5.9 gr 1,175 fps

 

[egd]

FWIW, my load for the RMR 124 rn with BE-86 is 4.9 @ 1.135.

 

[Dudedog]

I used the SIE 125gr FMJ data from Hodgdon and found it to be pretty close with HP38 and CFE-P with the RMRs jacketed HPs at 1.095 OAl.
I started with 4.3 of WSF with since I was using a shorter OAL than their WSF data and 4.3gr of WSF was around 1000fps @ 1.095.

 

[AR-Bossman]

I am in the same boat. I found this thread once and it convinced me to get some 100gr bullets.
I have them loaded but the weather is too cold for me.
I really thought the PSA 16 was gonna be a tac driver @50y with any 9mm and I was dead wrong. Many other carbine users report crazy accuracy results. I wonder if the PSA stuff is just not accurately made.

 

[LiveLife]

We have discussed the varying accuracy reports of 9mm carbines before and I found following factors are involved:

- Bullets slowing through transonic speed before reaching target and vertical stringing
- Wobbly adjustable stock affecting POA/POI
- Barrel twist rate

To verify these:

- I tested 100 gr bullet loads which maintained supersonic speed to target and this reduced group size and vertical stringing from bullet drop, especially at 100 yards.
- I was using Magpul MOE adjustable stock and using Magpul CTR stock with locking bar and fixed A2 stock reduced group size.
- PSA barrels have 1:10 twist rate and using Just Right carbine with 1:16 twist rate reduced group size.

So I would suggest using loads that remain supersonic or start subsonic for carbine accuracy testing at 50 yards along with fixed stock. As to 1:10 vs 1:16 barrel twist rate, I will be testing more after the machine rest is built to rule this out as many reported good accuracy out of Colt and other brand 9mm carbines that have 1:10 barrel twist rate.

Towards the end of the thread, I found despite my checking of scope mount nuts, one of the nuts was loose (thus putting results of the thread in question) so I will be repeating some of the accuracy test in the future with tight checked nuts.

 

[wally]

I think this is seriously over thinking things. You want inexpensive reloads for "plinking" at reasonable ranges. If your ammo is shooting 2 moa just choose targets that are 4-5 moa and just have fun! Don't over think it! Time is money too!

 

[LiveLife]

You want inexpensive reloads for "plinking" at reasonable ranges.

Yes, that was my "original" intent for the thread - to develop "plinking" carbine loads using cheap plated bullets and "mixed" range brass to replace 22LR plinking ammo.

But you know, I have a touch of OCD (well, maybe more than a touch) and some THR members didn't help by making suggestions to improve accuracy ... and now we have a full blown accuracy testing using a machine rest with just about every plated bullet currently manufactured on this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ng-at-25-50-yards.808446/page-2#post-10346110

I recently changed jobs and just finished 7 week orientation but it has rained almost solid for the past 3 weeks with a long honey do list so I haven't had a chance to do any shooting. The blown transmission in the Suburban has been rebuilt (the cage exploded) with all components upgraded so it should be in good shape to drive me to the shooting areas in the hills.

I will work on keeping this thread focused on "plinking loads with mixed range brass" and resume range testing soon (I am working on a rain setup so I could range test prone with bipod in the Suburban even on rainy days ).

 

[AR-Bossman]

I think this is seriously over thinking things. You want inexpensive reloads for "plinking" at reasonable ranges. If your ammo is shooting 2 moa just choose targets that are 4-5 moa and just have fun! Don't over think it! Time is money too!

I would have been fine if everyone else with a carbine wasn't bragging about how accurate they were.
I got mine and was unpleasantly surprised it wasn't as accurate as I thought carbines were supposed to be.

What is cool is changing your load design and having those changes show up in improved hits on a target. Those changes don't cost me anything other than switching up components and procedure.

So my "plinking" rounds are more accurate, but it didn't really cost me anything except the time to understand and research what was going on.

 

[Toprudder]

I know, this is a really old thread, but I think my recent data is relevant and don't need to start another thread.

Last weekend I took my 9mm 16" AR to the range, and my friend had his Labradar with him, so I thought we would measure downrange velocities of my RMR 115fmj loads. I use Power Pistol at a charge of 6.1gn, which is not max charge, but was the most accurate load I tested out to 50 yards. I seat these bullets to 1.100" since my AR has a fairly short leade. All mixed brass.

We had the Labradar setup to measure velocity at 5, 20, 50, 75, and 100 yards. It calculates the actual muzzle velocity (V0).

9 shots.
15.24fps SD
48.49 extreme spread.

V0 = 1522
V5 = 1499
V20 = 1429
V50 = 1299.8
V75 = 1206.2
V100 = 1126.9

At 100 yards, the group size was about 2.5". I zeroed the scope for 100 yards.

I had some other loads in 223 that I wanted to test at 500 yards, so after finishing up at the 100 yard range (paper only) I moved to the 500 yard range (steel only, at 300, 400, and 500 yards). When I got done with those loads, I decided just for fun that I would try to hit the steel at 300 yards with my 9mm. I don't have finger adjustable turrets on my cheap Centerpoint Walmart special scope (3-9x) but the reticle does have dots that equate to 4moa each, at max magnification. So my friend spotted for me and I walked the rounds in, the 4th shot hit the steel. The adjustment was 28moa up (84 inch drop), and 10moa left (30 inches). With that, I was able to ring the steel silhouette 9 out of 10 shots. I thought this was pretty consistent, given the distance and the fact the round was passing transonic well before reaching the target. What was interesting to me was the amount of correction to the left that I had to make. The wind was light and variable, so I don't think the drift was from the wind, I am wondering if I am seeing spin-drift.

Anyway, I just thought I would add my data to this thread.