Plated bullet differences - Mythbusting at 25/50 yards

[kcofohio]

bds, PM sent.

 

[LiveLife]

This is becoming a THR group project.

As springer99/Jim Watson posted, 9mm Precision Delta JHP and MBC coated cone bullets being sent from kcofohio and 45ACP HAP sent from lauderdale. Will add to the Winchester/Montana Gold/RMR jacketed bullets on hand for baseline/reference comparison testing.

Thank you!

 

[LiveLife]

Following email was sent to Accura Outdoors/Frontier/X-Treme and "Contact Us" online form was used for Hunting Shack Munitions/Speer/Rainier Ballistics.

A new discussion thread on plated bullets was created and we are requesting information from manufacturers - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=808446

Would appreciate if you could provide as much of the following information to update the information posted on the thread:

- Plating thickness of regular/thick plated bullets
- Rated velocities
- Sizing of bullets
- Bullet core alloy type and hardness in BHN

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Keep in mind that this thread is not about jacketed vs plated instead testing for differences among plated bullets.

I do however have a feeling we may end up starting a jacketed vs plated thread.

I think you will be up to your arse in alligators comparing jacket vs plate. Probably best to do a similar thread on jackets and let the user compare. Coatings are covered at Castboolits, but trying to find anything useful is enough to make an Irishman swear off beer.

We could use someone to put the results in a tabular webpage that can be sorted.

 

[LiveLife]

Jesse, I have gotten comparable and smaller shot groups with some plated 9mm loads compared to my Winchester 115 gr FMJ reference load (4.8 gr W231/HP-38 @ 1.130") so another myth busting thread on jacketed vs plated is inevitable (probably with most accurate plated loads from this thread).

We could use someone to put the results in a tabular webpage that can be sorted.

I could compile the results in sortable table file format.

 

[kcofohio]

bds, I got those out in the mail today. PM sent with tracking.

I found I still had some Berry's 115 gr. RN (regular). Sent 50 of those along with the others.

This is another time that I should have paid attention to detail. I see you could have used 40s. I would have sent some Xtreme 165 gr. FN too. I was so focused on 9s.

Thanks for volunteering your services for this project, bds. Really curious of the results. And of what feed back you will receive from the above mentioned companies.

kc

 

[LiveLife]

Thank you. I had finished my order with X-Treme and was getting ready to place orders for Berry's/HSM/PowerBond/Rainier bullets when I saw your post.

 

[LiveLife]

Received reply email from X-Treme and my response.

(FYI, HP/HPCB for X- Treme are Heavy Plate/Heavy Plate Concave Base)

From: Lisa Mcgee (X-Treme Bullets) <[email protected]>
To: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 3:05 PM
Subject: [Freedom Munitions] Re: Xtreme

Dear John:

The article in the link below will provide you with information regarding the difference between plated, jacketed and hard cast bullets.

http://www.ammoguru.com/what-are-plated-bullets/

Our copper plated bullets are 8 to 10 thousands. HP's and HPCB are 8 To 10. Please fill free to call if you need any further assistance.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,

Lisa Mcgee
The Freedom Munitions Team
Howell Munitions & Technology, Inc. | Freedom Munitions | X-Treme Bullets
Phone: (208)746-3668

www.FreedomMunitions.com
www.XtremeBullets.com
www.AmmoGuru.com

From: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
To: X-Treme Bullets <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Freedom Munitions] Re: Xtreme

Thank you Lisa.

Do you know the plating thickness of regular (non-HP/HPCB) bullets?

John

And updated the OP information - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=808446

Speer Gold Dot: Around .018" - http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_const.aspx

Speer Total Metal Jacket (TMJ - Trademark) : Around .015" - http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/plinker/tmj.aspx

Rocky Mountain Reloading Hardcore Match: .012" - .014" (rated to 1500 fps, 11-12 BHN) - https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...15-gr-rmr-hardcore-match-round-nose-plated-2/

Berry's MFG Thick Plated (TP): .006" - .012" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9589491#post9589491

PowerBond/Accura Outdoors: .010" - .011" (rated to 1300 fps) - https://accuraoutdoors.com/product-category/bullets/

X-Treme Heavy Plate Concave Base/Hollow Point (HPCB/HP): .008" - .010" (rated to 1500 fps, lead wire) - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

Rocky Mountain Reloading Regular: .008" - .010" (no velocity rating yet) - https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...9mm-124-gr-rmr-round-nose-plated-bullets-new/

Berry's MFG Regular: .0035" - .008" (rated to 1250 fps) - https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq#FAQ6

Hunting Shack Munitions: Around .005" (no fps rating) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/26...ameter-124-grain-plated-round-nose-box-of-500

Rainier Ballistics: Around .004" (rated to 1500 fps?) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-9mm-355-diameter-115-grain-plated-round-nose

X-Treme Regular: .006" - .008" (rated to 1200 fps, lead wire) - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

Frontier CMJ (Complete Metal Jacket): Can't find plating thickness or fps rating - http://www.frontierbullets.co.za/product/complete-metal-jacket-bullets/

 

[Jim Watson]

I recall an old gunzine project in which bullet jackets were dissolved in nitric acid, leaving the lead core which was resistant to the acid. The result was in relative mass of jacket and core.
Would it be accurate enough to measure plating thickness? I dunno.

 

[LiveLife]

Even with my year as BioChemistry major, I won't attempt such to determine the thickness of copper plating as plating thickness can vary depending on the location of the bullet. I think this is why some manufacturers advertise the plating thickness in range instead of a single number average.

Until more reliable measurement of plating thickness can be obtained, I am going to continue relying on information from the manufacturers and retail vendors.

 

[Duvel]

bds

I suspect BHN might be a greater influence on accuracy than thickness of plating, would be nice to include that number if it's available.

I have about 77 different .40 cal (plated / heavy, jacketed, coated) bullets.

The list: http://10mm-reloaded.com/load_data/supplemental/40_cal_bullet_details.html

In 9mm I've got: X-Treme (115, 124, 147), Berrys 115 & 124, Zero 125gr JHP, Bayou, 115gr XTP, 124gr Golden Saber, 124gr Gold Dot, 124gr XTP, 115gr Hornady HP, 115 & 124gr Montana Gold.

If there's any that would be of use to the effort let me know and I'll send em' out

 

[LiveLife]

Duvel, yes and I have requested that information from manufacturers. < PM sent >

Jim, I have thought about measuring plating thickness (still thinking) and what I may do is to cut the bullets in half and take comparison close up pictures.

For now, I have decided to limit the testing to 9mm bullets - I have Berry's 115/124 HBRN-TP bullets and RMR 100/115/124/147 HM RN/HP bullets along with Winchester/RMR 115 FMJ and RMR 124 JHP. kcofohio is sending Precision Delta 124 JHP and MBC coated cone bullets. I will update bullets Duvel will be sending (due to large quantity of bullets, I offered to compensate).

I ordered X-Treme 115/124 regular/HPCB bullets and depending on what other THR members offer for the testing, will be ordering HSM/PowerBond/Rainier and Zero FMJ bullets next (I believe there definitely will be another myth busting thread titled "Jacketed vs plated at 25/50 yards").

I am not planning to order Frontier bullets unless there's enough requests to test them also.

 

[GaryL]

Tagging to watch this develop. Should be good stuff.

 

[Walkalong]

I believe fit has a lot to do with how much velocity a plated bullet can take. A Ruger Blackhawk taught me that.

I know the 125 Gr .357 Powerbond can take 1250 plus (.357) and shoot very well. The 124 Gr 9MM Powerbonds can take 1350 plus (.38 Super) and shoot very well. I know the X-Treme 158 Gr SWC can take 1225 plus (.357) and shoot very well, if they fit. I know the 9MM Berrys HBRN-TP can take 1350 plus. (.38 Super) I haven't pushed the RMR HC Match 124 Gr 9MM bullet hard, but at .3555 with a thicker coating I bet it will hold up.

Anyway, I think fit enters into the equation along with plating thickness.

 

[LiveLife]

Yes. I think that's why Jay Phillips (no longer with Berry's MFG) posted in past THR threads that 9mm bullets were sized larger around .3555" and larger as sizer wore and the reason why they advertise 9mm sizing as .356" as their testing showed greater accuracy from slightly larger sizing. Jake from RMR also posted they size the 115 gr HM RN bullets larger at .356" and the new 115 gr FMJ at .3555" for the same reason.

Big thanks to members Duvel/kcofohio/lauderdale for sending plated/jacketed bullets for testing and I will start a new jacketed vs plated thread as I work on ordering jacketed bullets in coming months (All this bullet buying is really cutting into my retirement vintage Starcraft fishing boat/vintage Sears garden tractor restoration fund - my other "fun" hobbies).

I am also planning to order Zero 115 gr FMJ from Powder Valley to add to the baseline/reference testing.

Starting to test baseline of 115 gr FMJ and plated RN on the carbine/plated/mixed range brass thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10338508#post10338508

Will post updates as bullets arrive.

I took next week off before I start a new job so should be able to range test most of the loads.

 

[LiveLife]

Got another response from X-Treme bullets. Here are clipped emails in chronological order:

From: Lisa Mcgee (X-Treme Bullets) <[email protected]>
To: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 3:05 PM
Subject: [Freedom Munitions] Re: Xtreme

Dear John:

Our copper plated bullets are 8 to 10 thousands. HP's and HPCB are 8 To 10.

Lisa Mcgee
The Freedom Munitions Team
Howell Munitions & Technology, Inc. | Freedom Munitions | X-Treme Bullets
Phone: (208)746-3668

From: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
To: X-Treme Bullets <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Freedom Munitions] Re: Xtreme

Thank you Lisa.

Do you know the plating thickness of regular (non-HP/HPCB) bullets?

John

From: Lisa Mcgee (X-Treme Bullets) <[email protected]>
To: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 10:16 AM
Subject: [Freedom Munitions] Re: Xtreme

Good morning John

Yes. The copper is 8 to 10 Thousands thick.
I hope this helps
Have a great day

Lisa

From: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
To: X-Treme Bullets <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Freedom Munitions] Re: Xtreme

Hi Lisa,

Thank you for the information. So it is my understanding that both your regular and HP/HPCB bullets have .008"-.010" copper plating.

However, your Bullet/Load Info page states the following - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

"Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second)

Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second)"

So are you saying all of your bullets are rated to 1500 fps but you recommend HP/HPCB bullets for loads above 1200 fps?

Thank you.

John

 

[LiveLife]

I think we finally got the information we have been looking for from X-Treme:

From: Lisa Mcgee (X-Treme Bullets) <[email protected]>
To: John John <*******@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 3:42 PM
Subject: [Freedom Munitions] Re: Xtreme

Hi John,

No. The HPCB and HP's are 8-10. So sorry about that. The regular Bullets are 6-8 thousands.

Lisa Mcgee
The Freedom Munitions Team
Howell Munitions & Technology, Inc. | Freedom Munitions | X-Treme Bullets
Phone: (208)746-3668

And updated the OP information (PM sent to Walkalong) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=808446

Speer Gold Dot: Around .018" - http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/gold_dot_const.aspx

Speer Total Metal Jacket (TMJ - Trademark) : Around .015" - http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/plinker/tmj.aspx

Rocky Mountain Reloading Hardcore Match: .012" - .014" (rated to 1500 fps, 11-12 BHN) - https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...15-gr-rmr-hardcore-match-round-nose-plated-2/

Berry's MFG Thick Plate (TP): .006" - .012" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9589491#post9589491

PowerBond/Accura Outdoors: .010" - .011" (rated to 1300 fps) - https://accuraoutdoors.com/product-category/bullets/

X-Treme Heavy Plate Concave Base/Hollow Point (HPCB/HP): .008" - .010" (rated to 1500 fps, lead wire) - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

Rocky Mountain Reloading Regular: .008" - .010" (no velocity rating yet) - https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...9mm-124-gr-rmr-round-nose-plated-bullets-new/

Berry's MFG Regular: .0035" - .008" (rated to 1250 fps) - https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq#FAQ6

X-Treme Regular: .006" - .008" (rated to 1200 fps, lead wire) - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

Hunting Shack Munitions: Around .005" (no fps rating) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/26...ameter-124-grain-plated-round-nose-box-of-500

Rainier Ballistics: Around .004" (rated to 1500 fps?) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-9mm-355-diameter-115-grain-plated-round-nose

Frontier Complete Metal Jacket (CMJ): Can't find plating thickness or fps rating - http://www.frontierbullets.co.za/pro...acket-bullets/

 

[edleit]

It would be interesting to do a physical sampling of plating thickness along the profile of the entire bullet. If any member has access to an optical comparator (shadowgraph) in their metrology or QC lab, perhaps they might be interested in a side project? A sample bullet, sliced at the centerline from nose to base, then polished, would yield a nice specimen for examination and measurement.

A very time and labor intensive process however! Plus, we don't want to put anyone's job in jeopardy.

 

[WelshShooter]

It would be interesting to do a physical sampling of plating thickness along the profile of the entire bullet. If any member has access to an optical comparator (shadowgraph) in their metrology or QC lab, perhaps they might be interested in a side project? A sample bullet, sliced at the centerline from nose to base, then polished, would yield a nice specimen for examination and measurement.

A very time and labor intensive process however! Plus, we don't want to put anyone's job in jeopardy.

Fortunately, we have a few shadowgraphs here at work. Unfortunately, it is the manufacture of medical devices so would definitely lose my job if I stuck these on the shadowgraph! Plus, I reckon I would be on the 10 o'clock BBC news....

 

[243winxb]

Plated Bullet accuracy

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494465 photos of plated bullets in this thread. The Bullseye pistol shooters have tested for accuracy using the Ranson rests at 50 yards, with all types of bullet construction, except PC. http://www.bullseyeforum.net Mostly with 45acp. The Speer gold dot 45 acp bullet is said to be very accurate? Always good to do your own testing. Awaiting results of your findings.

 

[longdayjake]

No. The HPCB and HP's are 8-10. So sorry about that. The regular Bullets are 6-8 thousands.

This makes me giggle a little.

 

[longdayjake]

I got a little bit curious so I filed one of our bullets (rmr HC Match) in half. I then melted out all the lead I could. Did my best to get ALL the lead off the jacket. Then I used a smooth face hammer on a steel surface to pound it as flat as I could. I tried not to pound it too hard so as not to thin it out even more. Here is what I got.

 

[LiveLife]

Thank you for the confirmation.

 

[LiveLife]

All the plated and jacketed bullets are ordered and waiting for shipping. BIG THANKS to Duvel and kcofohio/Dudedog for sending 9mm bullets!

I haven't gotten any more email responses from manufacturers so will maintain posted OP information until we get updates. Will start compiling bullet dimensions/weight averages and variance. Will test W231/HP-38 loads from the carbine plated bullet thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10338994#post10338994

I have the following/ordered for 9mm testing:

115 gr Jacketed:
- Hornady HAP
- Hornady XTP
- RMR FMJ
- Winchester FMJ
- Zero FMJ

124 gr Jacketed:
- Hornady HAP
- Hornady XTP
- Montana Gold JHP
- Precision Delta JHP
- Remington GS JHP
- RMR JHP
- Zero JHP

115 gr Plated:
- Berry's Regular RN
- Berry's HBRN-TP
- HSM RN
- PowerBond RN
- Rainier RN
- RMR HM RN
- Speer TMJ
- X-Treme Regular RN
- X-Treme HPCB RN

124 gr Plated:
- Berry's Regular RN/FP
- Berry's HBRN-TP
- HSM RN
- PowerBond RN
- Rainier RN
- RMR HM FP/RN/HP
- Speer Gold Dot HP
- Speer TMJ
- X-Treme Regular RN
- X-Treme HPCB RN

147 gr Plated:
- RMR HM HP
- X-Treme HP

Coated lead bullets:
- Precision 115 gr TC
- Blue bullet 125 gr RN
- MBC 124 gr Cone Nose
- Lee 120 gr TC (11 BHN coated with RAL)

 

[LiveLife]

We could use someone to put the results in a tabular webpage that can be sorted.

I could compile the results in sortable table file format.

While waiting for ordered bullets to arrive (believe me, wife has plenty of honey do's), I did a sample spreadsheet shown below which has been sorted by column "B".

(Note: While X-Treme 147 HP is sized .355", 147 RN is sized .357" and 147 HPCB is sized .356". Jake from RMR confirmed Hardcore Match 115 gr are sized .356", 124 gr are sized .3565" and 147 gr are sized .357")

I decided to leave the BHN column out for now. Let me know if you want additional columns added.