Carrying a 1911 without the safety on?

[CPshooter]

Would you carry a DA revolver in a holster with the hammer cocked...and believe it's safe?

A revolver doesn't have a grip safety. Also, a cocked revolver typically has much more of a "hair" trigger than the single-action 1911. Most 1911s have a ~5lbs trigger pull that still has a little bit of take-up before it breaks. Revolvers usually have NO takeup, and are lighter too. To answer your question, hell no I wouldn't carry a revolver in SA

I'm not necessarily concerned that I will accidentally pull the trigger once my finger is placed on it. If I have to pull my gun out, it IS going to be used. The length of the trigger pull doesn't matter at that point.

I do see the point you are trying to make though..

 

[notorious]

Yep, revolvers in SA condition is a no-go. Even SA only revolvers have that half-cock as the default safety device. I would do a half-cock on a revolver, never fully cocked. Heck, with my SW M640-1, I have no options but a DA pull for every shot because I couldn't find the bodyguard model.

 

[SuperNaut]

You don't have to use your parking brake either, but it sure beats finding your car at the bottom of the hill inside your neighbors living room.

If you include sweeping the safety during your draw as part of your normal training regimen, there is no time loss and there is no memory involved. Since there is no time loss, and no memory issue, what other benefit is there to keeping the safety disengaged?

 

[rcmodel]

Well, you might get to try out your medical insurance plan, or your lawyer.

rcmodel

 

[notorious]

Exactly... if it's there for an intended purpose, use it. Otherwise, just get a SA gun with no safety like... well... they all come with one, don't they? The manufacturers might be onto something there!

 

[Leadhead]

I like the revolver analogy....with a transfer bar safety it is quite simillar to what you are suggesting.

 

[orchidhunter]

The S&W Model 40 has a grip saftey. The pic I posted is not it, a little to much Xmas cheer, i guess. orchidhunter

 

[orchidhunter]

 

[johnnylaw53]

As mention the 1911 was first designed without the thumb safty the military wanted it added. I carried one for awhile when I was an M.P. we was suppose to carry it with an empty chamber but after inspection most of us would rack it and engage the safty. I feel the 1911 is a great weapon but if it your choice then it the only platform you should use at least until you have trained so much with it it become natrul to pull and disengage the safty when you ready to fire. Now days since i'm requiered to carry a sig on duty and my choice for off duty is a s&w 642 I just leave the 1911's alone.

 

[dmazur]

I believe the Ultra Carry II has the firing pin safety, similar to a Series-80 Colt except it is activated by the grip safety instead of the trigger.

So, Series-80 Colt 1911's, Kimber model II's, and similar have a firing pin safety that prevents discharge unless someone is holding the pistol or pulling the trigger. This is similar, but not identical, to Glock's safe action (?) design which blocks the firing pin until someone pulls the trigger.

The problem with all of these designs is that something can go wrong. There are quite a few LEO's who have found out that holsters, shirt tails, etc. are just as good as a finger, as far as the Glock is concerned.

I believe there is a case of a discharge involving a XD while reholstering, because, after all, the grip safety was depressed...

With 1911's that don't have a firing pin safety, it is definitely questionable to carry cocked with safety off (Condition 0). With those that do, you are perhaps on a par with the Glocks and XD's, which some folks just can't manage to operate without an occasional unintentional discharge.

So, since the modern 1911 has not only a firing pin safety, but a thumb safety, why not just use the darn thing? It isn't that hard to learn to swipe it off, and then you can rest assured that even careless reholstering is an OK thing, provided you flick the safety on before you try it!

 

[notorious]

The manual safety is a good thing and if I had it on my EDCSAG, I would definitely use it. On my 92FS though, I don't bother after I decock because I don't push down with 12 pounds of pressure while reholstering.

 

[quaqor]

The SAS were known for carrying their Browning 9 mm's in Condition 0. Of course, they were known for doing a number of dangerous things. The older Brownings a small safety lever held in place with friction that was not nearly as user friendly as the one found on 1911's.

 

[MythBuster]

Deanimator wrote,

"Actually, it was designed to be carried cocked and NOT locked."

That is 100% BS my friend.

 

[1911Tuner]

That is 100% BS my friend.

Noitain't. Browning's first prototype submitted to the Army for evaluation didn't have a thumb safety. It had the grip safety only.

 

[Old Fuff]

All of Browning's .38 pistols that were submitted to the Army for trial and evaluation lacked both a safety lock (manual safety) and grip safety, as did all of the commercial .38 automatics made between 1900 and 1929.

Colt's first commercial .45 pistol was the model 1905, and it also didn't have either safety, but about this time Browning made his first prototype for the Army that did have an experimental grip safety - but still no manual one. The very last change of any consequence was to add a manual safety to a prototype in late 1910, just a few months before the design was adopted.

It was generally the practice to carry these pistols with the hammer down, on either a loaded or unloaded chamber, and these modes remained popular until Jeff Cooper came along in the late 1970's and told us that condition 1 (cocked & locked) was the only way to go. Many disagreed, and some still do. Most of them are old-timers with experience going back to the late 1930's or 40's - or younger ones that learned the older ways from them.

William Fairbairn, who was in charge of weapons & training in the Shanghai (China) Municipal Police Department between the two World Wars, and later taught British Commandos, armed his officers with Colt .380 Pocket Model pistols that had been modified with a small screw so that the manual safety was blocked in the "off" position. Yes they were carried with the chamber loaded. At the time Shanghai was a world class crime-center, with numerous daily gunfights, and for the most part his officers survived.

The sound you just heard was the cocked & locked /use-a-45 crowd swooning....

Given his reputation and experience ya' can't exactly say that Fairbairn didn't know what he was doing...

 

[1911shooter]

Carry a 1911 with the safty off, NEVER EVER do it under any condition, and i would never ever holster a cocked double action revolver either.

 

[rjsixgun]

The reason the original Browning design didnt have a thumb safty was because it was designed to be carried hammer down on a loaded chamber....Yeup you heard me right, hammer down on a loaded chamer.
Browning designed the pistol with a "IRON" fireing pin and a strong spring, the Fireing pin is shorter than the pins channel, this made it safe to have the hammer at rest with out the pin comeing in contack with the live round.

You'll find a nice article in the NRA magazine from about 3 years ago on this topic.

The only reason Army wanted a thumb safety is because a calvery guy might slip when decocking it and might kill his horse.

In 1910 the final prototype for the Model 1911 pistol, incorporating the addition of the manual safety lever, was put through an exhaustive test regimen. At one point, six thousand rounds were fired through a single pistol without a single jam or failure. On May 5, 1911 the Colt pistol was officially accepted as the "Automatic Pistol, Calibre .45, Model of 1911."Following its adoption by the Army, the M1911 was also accepted by the Navy and the Marines. It was also adopted by Norway, for use by their armed forces. Supplemental production capacity was set up at Springfield Armory, in order to meet the heavy demand for the pistol. When the United States entered World War I, demand for the pistol was so great that contracts were let out to several other manufacturers. Only Remington/U.M.C. actually went into production, however, before the war ended, resulting in the abrupt cancellation of all outstanding contracts

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/hist_dev.htm

 

[Boba Fett]

Haven't read all the posts, but here's my two cents:

If the gun has a safety, I'd probably use it 99.9999% of the time. ESPECIALLY on a 1911. All the 1911s I've seen have very easy trigger pulls. The Kimber Ultra Carry II has a 4-5 lb pull.

Versus something like the Sig P220 Compact which doesn't have a safety, but does have a DA/SA trigger. DA 10 lb / SA 4.4 lb.

With the trigger being that light, I think it's nuts to carry it with the safety off.

 

[Old Fuff]

and i would never ever holster a cocked double action revolver either.

Well it would probably be a good idea not to, but that was one issue the Cavalry had with the automatic pistols that Mr. Browning and Colt were submitting. They favored Colt’s improved New Service .45 revolver because it had not one, but two internal mechanical safeties that would prevent an accidental discharge; even if it was holstered by a trooper on a bucking horse with the hammer cocked. If the hammer should fall a discharge would be prevented unless during the time the hammer was falling the trigger was held back. This was considered to be improbable if not impossible because of the design of the issue holster that fully covered the trigger guard.

Even today, many shooters are unaware that since about 1908 Colt revolvers had positive mechanical safeties that functioned without requiring any manual operation by the user, and the same was true of Smith & Wesson’s after 1944.

A user might forget to engage (or disengage) a manual safety on a pistol, but with a revolver it wasn’t necessary they do anything.

 

[Old Fuff]

Versus something like the Sig P220 Compact which doesn't have a safety, but does have a DA/SA trigger. DA 10 lb / SA 4.4 lb.

No, it has an internal mechanical safety the blocks the firing pin and requires no manual operation. The safety is disengaged only when the trigger is pulled and held all of the way back.

 

[Boba Fett]

No, it has an internal mechanical safety the blocks the firing pin and requires no manual operation. The safety is disengaged only when the trigger is pulled and held all of the way back.

Sorry, since we were talking external safeties with the 1911, I wasn't think thinking about that.

I should have said "doesn't have an external safety."

 

[Old Fuff]

I wouldn't make an issue of it, except that it seem that some members who are posting on this thread seem to think that double-action/hand ejector revolvers don't have safeties, and pistols without obvious manual safeties don't either. This of course is far from the truth, and in some ways mechanical safeties have the advantage of always working without being dependent on the shooter remembering to do something.

Returning to the original post, it would seem to me that those that don't want to be bothered with a manual safety should consider those handguns that have mechanical ones. Then they can forget "flipping the switch," while being completely safe. Why take on any extra risk?

 

[Boba Fett]

I wouldn't make an issue of it, except that it seem that some members who are posting on this thread seem to think that double-action/hand ejector revolvers don't have safeties, and pistols without obvious manual safeties don't either.

No problem Fuff. In fact, I'm glad you pointed it out for the reason you stated above. Clarity is a good thing and more information adds to clarity.

Then they can forget "flipping the switch," while being completely safe. Why take on any extra risk?

Why indeed? Perhaps the OP can answer that since it was his idea...

 

[DarkSoldier]

To the OP,

I carry mine cocked and locked. Never any other way. Ever. Releasing the safety is not an issue.

But that's just me and not intended as advice or instruction for others who may know better.

For someone just starting out on 1911 platform, my best advice would be to seek competent instruction from qualified professional instructors who are proficient in the defensive application of that particular pistol.

Find out how the FBI HRT, LAPD (SWAT and SIS) and other LE agencies who use the 1911 carry them. Learn the weapon. Devote yourself to the never ending process of mastering it.

It matters little how the gun was designed to be carried, or intended to be carried, a century ago. What matters is finding the safest and most efficient way to use it in 2009.

Respectfully,

DarkSoldier

 

[ezypikns]

Maybe you could eliminate another step.

Just carry it, safety off, finger outside of trigger guard, in your shooting hand all the time.

Actually, if you take it one step further (your MIND is the ultimate safety), just go ahead and ease your finger on to the trigger. YOU know you'll never pull it by mistake. right?

I believe I'll just carry cocked and locked, and sweep the safety off on the draw.