does everyone carry their 1911 cocked and locked?

[JH45]

My 45 is carried in condition three.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't care if you take issue with my terminology anymore than I care for you to tell me what I should and should not carry or how I should carry it based on your personal preference and bias. This is not your forum, you do not speak for me and your opinion means no more to me than mine to you. I did not introduce myself to this forum, I made a post, nor did I invite you to dinner, or a movie.

People should carry what they want how they want to based on their own level of comfort not your opinion

Why so hostile? I didn't tell anyone to do anything. I did say IMO and I never implied this forum was mine. I don't know why you are so angry or why you are getting so nasty? This is a discussion and I had an opinion. There is no reason for all the anger, really...

 

[Kynoch]

Why so hostile? I didn't tell anyone to do anything. I did say IMO and I never implied this forum was mine. I don't know why you are so angry or why you are getting so nasty? This is a discussion and I had an opinion. There is no reason for all the anger, really...

I suspect the tenor of chaosrob's retorts were influenced in part by absolutist comments like:

"...Anyone with a 1911 who doesn't carry cocked & locked shouldn't be carrying a 1911..."

"...if you're uncomfortable using a gun as it was DESIGNED TO BE USED..."

Both opinions are factually incorrect. There's no one single correct way to carry an M1911 pattern pistol for all people under all conditions.

 

[WC145]

If you're uncomfortable carrying a 1911 loaded in condition one but are okay carrying some other gun loaded and ready, either put the time and effort into becoming familiar and comfortable with the 1911 or just carry the other gun. But to be willing to carry one type of handgun ready to use and then choose to carry another that isn't makes no sense.

Yes, there are proven methods of loading a gun during the draw. However, the argument for empty chamber/C3/Israeli Method carry never holds up against carrying in C1 for practical use and this is where they fail -
1. Extensive training is required to become proficient.
2. Two hands are required.
3. It's always slower into action than the same gun in Condition 1.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

I think the question comes down to whether an individual feels comfortable carrying any handgun with a round in the chamber - and that's not specific to a particular handgun type.

If you're not comfortable with a round in the chamber regardless of the handgun, then it doesn't matter whether it is a 1911, Glock, SIG, etc.

However, if you are comfortable with a round in the chamber of one type of gun with it in the ready condition, then it makes sense to carry the 1911 in Condition 1 as it is just as safe as any other style of handgun with a round chambered - and it could be argued that it may be more safe as it has two separate safeties.

 

[chaosrob]

I do not know where anyone would think that I was angry because I certainly am not. I do however take issue with peoples opinion being touted as fact. I am not sure when one persons comfort level and method of training trumped another persons comfort level, This is the same mindset that we must face off against with the anti gun crowd. There is no one size fits all. Taking issue is far from anger and hostility.

 

[Kynoch]

If you're uncomfortable carrying a 1911 loaded in condition one but are okay carrying some other gun loaded and ready, either put the time and effort into becoming familiar and comfortable with the 1911 or just carry the other gun. But to be willing to carry one type of handgun ready to use and then choose to carry another that isn't makes no sense.

Yes, there are proven methods of loading a gun during the draw. However, the argument for empty chamber/C3/Israeli Method carry never holds up against carrying in C1 for practical use and this is where they fail -
1. Extensive training is required to become proficient.
2. Two hands are required.
3. It's always slower into action than the same gun in Condition 1.

I didn't see anyone articulate that scenario on this thread.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

People should carry what they want how they want to based on their own level of comfort not your opinion

Actually, people should carry what they want and how they want based on their comfort and an INFORMED opinion, which in turn should be based on facts and experience(s).


Yes, people can (and do) carry the 1911 in a variety of conditions, from unloaded (Condition 4) to four other loaded conditions (ranging from Condition 3 to Condition 0).

And yes, many people have many opinions about when it's appropriate to carry under any given condition.

However, when one is carrying a firearm of any kind for the purpose of self-defense then that firearm should be ready to fulfill that function with a minimum of extraneous manipulations, especially those which require more than one hand to perform.

This is not "opinion", this is "fact".

"Comfort" is likewise not "fact".

Not carrying any give firearm in a condition to be readily employed as an applicator of deadly force for the purpose of self-defense is a condition referred to as "compromise". One compromises that readiness because of some perceived notion (factual or otherwise) that they do not desire or require that level of readiness for other reasons not related to self-defense.


The following are examples of such compromises:

"I want to carry a 1911 for self-defense. However, I'm not comfortable carrying it Condition 1, so I'll carry it Condition 3."

or

"I want to carry a 1911 for self-defense. However, I'm not comfortable with carrying a loaded gun, so I'll carry it Condition 4."

 

[Kynoch]

I wonder what the average time difference actually is to draw, charge/cock (if needed), aim and shoot one's sidearm between C1 and C2 or C3?

If shaving milliseconds were truly that important, wouldn't we all be carrying our sidearms in C0 at high ready with a handkerchief draped loosely over them? At the very least wouldn't we all be wearing quick draw holsters suitable for Steel Challenge or maybe Doc Holliday quick-draw shoulder rigs?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I wonder what the average time difference actually is to draw, charge/cock (if needed), aim and shoot one's sidearm between C1 and C2 or C3?

If shaving milliseconds were truly that important, wouldn't we all be carrying our sidearms in C0 at high ready with a handkerchief draped loosely over them? At the very least wouldn't we all be wearing quick draw holsters suitable for Steel Challenge or maybe Doc Holliday quick-draw shoulder rigs?

If all we're talking about here is speed drawing under controlled situations wherein the many different unknown factors dealing with possible every-day self-defense scenarios don't exist, then I rather suspect that it's not all that significant.

But suppose you have to draw your pistol while seatbelted in your car. Or you require the use of your other hand for other simultaneous tasks, such as holding a flashlight, opening a door, yanking your child back behind you, or fending off a reaching attacker. Or you have a physical injury which prevents you from using two hands. Or you need to maintain control of your dog that you're walking.

And another aspect to think of...drawing one's weapon is a defacto demonstration of intent to use deadly force, whether you do so or not at that time. It's a threatening gesture that may escalate actions prematurely or, under some circumstances, fall under some "brandishing" law. Having to chamber a round means having to draw your weapon to do so...and if all you're really trying to do is prepare ahead of time (i.e. before the scenario reaches the point where you would actually be required to use deadly force in self-defense), then you could end up making things worse.

Just food for thought.

 

[chaosrob]

You're forgetting the impact of training. Take the following two scenarios;

Scenario #1
A person carries cocked and locked but carries under two layers of clothing, does not train at all and walks around with their head in the clouds or staring at the ground hands in pockets. Never practices drawing from concealment and most likely has his/her firearm stuffed with the latest and greatest whizbang ammo but hasn't even tested it through their firearm because it is too expensive to "waste" in practice. Uses winchester white box twice a year shooting at some cans from a rest for "practice".

Scenario #2
A person who carries condition 3 but trains to draw and rack from a well thought out carry position and pays attention to their surroundings. They shoot often and have run at least two hundred rounds of their carry ammo through their firearm to make sure it would feed reliably. Carries head high, always looking around hands free and available

Things aren't always cut and dried, there are many factors involved in rendering a verdict on who is better prepared for a scenario than just the mode they choose to carry their firearm in.

BTW, thank you for your service

Actually, people should carry what they want and how they want based on their comfort and an INFORMED opinion, which in turn should be based on facts and experience(s).


Yes, people can (and do) carry the 1911 in a variety of conditions, from unloaded (Condition 4) to four other loaded conditions (ranging from Condition 3 to Condition 0).

And yes, many people have many opinions about when it's appropriate to carry under any given condition.

However, when one is carrying a firearm of any kind for the purpose of self-defense then that firearm should be ready to fulfill that function with a minimum of extraneous manipulations, especially those which require more than one hand to perform.

This is not "opinion", this is "fact".

"Comfort" is likewise not "fact".

Not carrying any give firearm in a condition to be readily employed as an applicator of deadly force for the purpose of self-defense is a condition referred to as "compromise". One compromises that readiness because of some perceived notion (factual or otherwise) that they do not desire or require that level of readiness for other reasons not related to self-defense.


The following are examples of such compromises:

"I want to carry a 1911 for self-defense. However, I'm not comfortable carrying it Condition 1, so I'll carry it Condition 3."

or

"I want to carry a 1911 for self-defense. However, I'm not comfortable with carrying a loaded gun, so I'll carry it Condition 4."

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

You're forgetting the impact of training. Take the following two scenarios;

Scenario #1
A person carries cocked and locked but carries under two layers of clothing, does not train at all and walks around with their head in the clouds or staring at the ground hands in pockets. Never practices drawing from concealment and most likely has his/her firearm stuffed with the latest and greatest whizbang ammo but hasn't even tested it through their firearm because it is too expensive to "waste" in practice. Uses winchester white box twice a year shooting at some cans from a rest for "practice".

Scenario #2
A person who carries condition 3 but trains to draw and rack from a well thought out carry position and pays attention to their surroundings. They shoot often and have run at least two hundred rounds of their carry ammo through their firearm to make sure it would feed reliably. Carries head high, always looking around hands free and available

Things aren't always cut and dried, there are many factors involved in rendering a verdict on who is better prepared for a scenario than just the mode they choose to carry their firearm in.

BTW, thank you for your service

You're welcome...and thank you for noticing!


No, I'm not forgetting training. Training is a huge part of any self-defense tactics, of course. But training can only go so far in making up ground from a less advantageous starting position in the first place.

You and I can always come up with specific scenarios in which one or the other method/tactic does or does not work well. But it's not the specifics being discussed here...it's the generalities. We can each envision specific scenarios in which one method clearly overshadows the other.

However, for a firearm of any kind to be readily used as a means to effectively project deadly force, it must be ready to use in that manner with the least amount of time and effort. This is a general truism that, when deviated from, requires ever increasing efforts in other ways in order to make up for any losses engendered.

If the firearm is ready to use in such a fashion, then it provides two distinct and important advantages to the defender:

1. It enables the defender to more rapidly and reliably bring his firearm into effective use.

2. It enables the defender to use his free hand/arm to provide him with other tactical/strategic advantages at the same time, giving him more options.


If you compromise this general truism, then you narrow down some of your options by having to tie up your other hand/arm in order to make your firearm ready for use.


It's been said that no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy, and self-defense is no different. The key lies in giving yourself all the advantages you can while providing yourself with the best and most options that you can. And yes, having the training to effectively set up and utilize these as well.


Going back to your above scenarios, if two people are trained in both methods of carrying an presenting their firearms in Condition 1 and Condition 3, then the advantage lies with the person who chooses to carry Condition 1 over the one who chooses to carry Condition 3. It's not just a matter of training...it's a matter of simple mechanics.


Now, lest you (or anyone else) think that I'm arguing for one method over another over some personal opinion, let me reiterate my stand here: I'm for people making their own decisions based on informed facts and experience(s), not simple personal opinion.

How one carries a firearm is based on many factors, but the "HOW" of carrying a firearm involves "compromises" from one condition to another based on the sheer mechanics involved in being able to effectively utilize the firearm from each given condition.

 

[RustyShackelford]

cocked & locked SFS....

I like both styles;
Cocked & locked(condition one) and the custom SFS.
If I were doing open carry often or worked as a armed professional in areas where a weapon retention issue may come up or a lot of movement(bending/run/jump), Id opt for the SFS.
My state just allowed the use of .45acp & .40S&W pistols for armed security officers.

Saying always & never re: guns is something I avoid.

 

[1911Tuner]

A holstered cocked and locked 1911 or High Power is as safe as any loaded gun can be. There are still some who are nervous over the cocked hammer, but if they understood how the system functions, they probably wouldn't be quite as nervous...but too often perceptions are hard to work through.

Unless there are some really wonky circumstances, guns don't discharge when they're nestled in holsters. It's when we handle them that things can go wrong...and that's purely operator error and not the fault of the gun. Pulling the trigger fires the gun...whether we mean to or not...and that pretty much sums it up.

Be careful. Mind your muzzle and your trigger finger.

 

[1911Tuner]

Condition two requires fine motor skills and breaking your grip.

Not if ya know how.

It also requires easing the hammer down over a loaded round.

Not a problem if ya know how.

Lowering a hammer isn't normally something that's done in a hurry or when adrenalin is smokin' hot. Observance of proper technique and keeping the muzzle pointed in a direction that negates any lasting damage should the gun fire is the key. Learn how. Do it correctly. Be careful. Take your time.

These things can also apply when handling or operating other potentially dangerous machinery...from carving knives to chain saws to automobiles. Common sense stuff.

At the end of the day...is gun. Gun not safe.

 

[red rick]

If you're not going to carry a 1911 cocked&locked you should probably carry a different style handgun.

Why do some people feel safe with a Glock with no manual safety but unsafe with a 1911 which has a manual safety and a grip safety?

Back 40+ years ago not many who carried a 1911 gave a second though to carrying cocked&locked because that was the way you carried a 1911. These days with all the false safety hype and so many people thinking guns are for the most part unsafe, way too many are afraid of way too much. Add the fact that over the past 10 to 20 years the move away from a 5" barreled heavy gun to very small very light handguns, you have a large percent of the carry community who are not accustom to carrying a 1911 so it seems dangerous to them. There aren't many 21+ year-old guys who carry a 1911 any more, mostly the 40+ year old guys do. (there are exceptions so don't focus on this part of my post only)

I agree with ArchAngelCD on this .

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

"Cocked and locked" is the best way to have a 1911 both safe and instantly ready for action. It is best reserved for carrying on your person, in a holster, not knocking about loose. Especially with modern ones with short hammers and beavertail grip safeties, cocking the hammer before firing and one-handed is too difficult and takes too much time. Chamber empty requires extra time and both hands.

 

[sealer]

always condition 1
dennis

 

[Normandy]

Don't forget the10% of us who are left handed.
*The cocked hammer makes the pistol a little bit more snag-able.
*If you try (left handed) to operate the safety one handed, you could drop the pistol. Or, it would require two hands.
*It's as easy for a lefty to cock the hammer as it is for a righty to drop the safety.

 

[1911Tuner]

Don't forget the10% of us who are left handed.

A friend of mine...a southpaw who never liked any of the various ambi safeties...taught himself to disengage the safety with his index finger as his hand found the grip. After working with the technique for a few months, he could equal my time for first accurate shot from the leather. I'm no Jelly Bryce, but I'm not slow.

Of course, that places the gun in Condition Zero as its drawn, but the trigger still has to be pulled in order to fire it.

There are ways around the obstacles if one is willing to work at it.

 

[HexHead]

If you're not going to carry a 1911 cocked&locked you should probably carry a different style handgun.

Why do some people feel safe with a Glock with no manual safety but unsafe with a 1911 which has a manual safety and a grip safety?

Because a Glock is not fully cocked until you pull the trigger. Until you do that, it's a paperweight. You don't need an external safety on an uncocked gun.

To the OP, if you're not comfortable carrying a 1911 in Condition 1, it's not the right gun for you. Keep it as a range toy only or get a different platform.

 

[bannockburn]

If I'm carrying a 1911 or Browning Hi-Power it's going to be in Condition 1-Cocked and Locked.

 

[HexHead]

The gun was never designed to be carried cocked and locked, the thumb safety was an add on by request of the military so that it's cavalry could temporarily safe a loaded pistol It was not a part of JMB's design, see the M1910.

Take a look at Browning's earlier designs, the 1903 and 1908. Both have a thumb safety and grip safety.

 

[Armored farmer]

If you're not going to carry a 1911 cocked&locked you should probably carry a different style handgun.

I was carrying a different gun, a snub revolver. I have decided that the 1911 Officer is a better carry weapon for me in so many ways. Yes...the revolver was just a trigger pull away from firing at any time also.

 

[1911Tuner]

Take a look at Browning's earlier designs, the 1903 and 1908. Both have a thumb safety and grip safety.

Those two didn't have exposed hammers.

All of Browning's "hammer" guns used the half-cock as the only manual safety until the US Cavalry requested the manujal, slide locking safety that we know as the thumb safety.