CARRYING A CHAMBERED AUTO - OR NOT

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The Israelis generally don't have one in the pipe for safety. While there is the fact of it being a bit slower, they feel that having the extra time to really check the situation out befopre they get to shooting increases safety dramatically.
Before people prime their flamethrowers, I have personally met and discussed this with some Israeli citizens with military and/or police experience. They were imminently practical in all facets of self-defense techniques and applications and their choice of an empty chamber has served them in good stead during a constant war footing for more than 50 years. They have fought terrorism on a scale that our 'spec ops badboys' would only see in their nightmares and still choose to not have a loaded chamber. It is apersonal rather than a tactical choice for you, fortunately, and you will hear proponents on both sides of the arguement.

Try them both and pick what makes you more comfortable,
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

P.S. I keep one in the pipe, myself.
 
"...with as much training that they receive, things like this should not happen."

This is a mistake in thinking. Training is not the be-all and end-all that many seem to think it is.

I don't care how much training a person gets, there's no way they will always be prepared for every situation they may find themselves in. This is one of the reasons rookie cops are usually required to have a veteran officer supervise them for 6 months to a year, when they first go on duty. It's to give them the chance to learn to think "outside the book", and to learn to deal with all that stuff that "the book" and training don't cover.

And even for that, after a while they will probably eventually find themselves in a situation where they either get complacent, or find themselves so distracted by other things that they get negligent of certain other things. As has already been stated, they are only human, after all.

I can tell you that as an ex-cop, there were several times that I went back and checked my equipment ( guns, car, radio...you name it ) after "the dust had settled" and found something in a condition it shouldn't have been in. And I guess until a person has actually been there, it's hard to grasp how such things can happen. They just do.

All I can tell you is that Capt. Murphy is indeed alive and well, and putting in overtime. Especially where guns are concerned. Training and practice do help keep him at bay, but it never stops him entirely. ;)


J.C.
 
The Israelis generally don't have one in the pipe for safety.
Click to expand...
That was once the case, for certain armed operatives (mostly undercover), when carrying SA guns. I don't think that's the common pratice any long. They now carry SIGs and Glocks pretty widely, and they're ready to go.

Not having one in the pipe is scarey, as it assume you'll always be able to use both hands.
 
From Johnny Blaze:
Alot of very good comments. I took everyone of them to mind.
I guess that maybe I was a little quick to jump to the conclusion, but it did put some doubts in my mind. I know that police officers are no different than any other person, but with as much training that they receive, things like this should not happen.
I remember going to a indoor gun range several years ago, and there were many, many holes in the ceiling about 10 feet out. I asked how all the holes got in the ceiling. The guy working there told me that they have alot of local police shooting there. I guess that I should have taken that into consideration.
I have carried revolvers with the cylinder full, and several times carried a auto with one in the chamber, and I never touch the trigger unless I am ready to shoot. I have never had a accidental discharge, even during a combat stint in the infantry. (that is when they still had a decent sidearm - 45acp)
I imagine that my 45 smith is safe to carry with one in the chamber, but I kind of have that fear of it happening.
A really good point that several people brought up is the time that it takes to load a round into the chamber. That is definately something to think about.
I am going to work on this and build my confidence up that I am not going to let this happen to me.
Thanks to everyone for the feedback.
Click to expand...

I understand your concern. I had the same concern when I first started carrying my weapon, and because of that did not carry with a round in the chamber. I think a lot of it has to do with familiarity and being comfortable with the situation. As I got more confident in my safety procedures I began carrying with one in the chamber. One rule I established for myself that helped alleviate my concerns was to always make sure if I have a round in the chamber that the gun is in a holster. I follow this rule religiously as it gives me an extra measure of safety and self-confidence.
 
Another explanation

I seems to me that if I was in charge training for a PD and knew that we had some old cruisers sitting around waiting to go to auction, I might be inclined to drive them over to an outdoor range and use them to train for a gunfight that erupts before/as the officer exits the car in a traffic stop. Do enough of this and you can expect a couple of wounded cars (which is why I'd use the ones headed for auction), there might even have been a couple with holes in the dash that went straight to the scrap yard.

Or perhaps these cars were “injured” when their drivers really had to quickly draw while exiting or while trying to duck down behind the engine.

These are things that don’t generally happen to me. And if they did, I’d take possible a hole in my car over trying to chamber a round while I also open the door, unfasten my seatbelt and try not to get shot.

And for bonus TactiCool Mall Ninja points, keeping one in the chamber gives me one more shot. And the first shot from a condition 1 pistol is not only faster, its quieter, so if I were to stumble upon someone who needs shootin’ before he sees me; my first shot could be a freebee.:cool:
 
If one is going to carry an Auto pistol, and is uncomfortable with keeping one in the chamber, then I suggest only carrying a DA Auto, and if your still not comfortable give up the Auto and carry a Revolver.
 
For most of my adult life, when I have carried a semi-auto pistol, either for work, or personal defense, it has ALWAYS been with one in the chamber. When I carry a 1911, it's in condition 1, cocked, locked, and ready to go. My two Taurus pistols, are also carried that way, even though they are double action, because the safety is of the 1911 style, I carry them cocked and locked as well.

My pistols have never fired when I didn't want them to. As long as you always treat your firearms as though they're loaded, even if you THINK they're not, you shouldn't have any problems.

My personal opinion, Glocks should have manual safeties. :D
 
manual safety

No! The Glocks don't have a safety and that was one of the reasons I wanted the gun. I like to know that my gun in the holster is chambered and ready to go when I need it. I use the CQC holster with a manual release and that is enough of a safety for me.

This is also one of the reasons that Glocks are commonly used by LEO's, when you draw and fire - you will be doing just that, not fumbling with a manual safety or any safety for that matter. If you do not pull the trigger it is not going to fire, and if your gun is pointed in a safe direction you have nothing to worry about.

Carrying, and knowing that you are ready if the situation presents itself is an important part (in my opinion) of carrying -period. When your heart is racing and you are tracking multiple targets, or even just one who wants to deal with any extra "safety" features even if eventually becomes "second nature". I would much rather focus on my shot placement and draw speed, not to mention safe gun handling. One thing that I could not stand about my 1911 clone was the thumb safety, I may just be forgetful but that safety is a pain in the ass. I have never had an accidental fire and I am always aware of which way my muzzle is pointed and that is all someone needs.

Draw, fire. Easy as that.



..We can say ass right?
 
This is also one of the reasons that Glocks are commonly used by LEO's, when you draw and fire - you will be doing just that, not fumbling with a manual safety or any safety for that matter. If you do not pull the trigger it is not going to fire, and if your gun is pointed in a safe direction you have nothing to worry about.
Click to expand...

Like that optometrist, the unarmed one, being arrested for being a bookie, that got fatally NDed in the head by a member of a "tactical squad". Some cops shouldn't carry Glocks.
 
No manual safety...

Is the reason I DON'T have a Glock. Any bozo with a trigger finger can pick up your own weapon and shoot you with it.

If I wanted a gun that would go bang when I pulled the trigger, and didn't have a manual safety, I'd buy a revolver. :D
 
It was from a Glock, I've seen them in squard cars here too.

As fas as cocked and locked or one in the pipe goes? I always carry one in the pipe. I don't carry Glocks though. :p
 
"when you draw and fire - you will be doing just that, not fumbling with a manual safety or any safety for that matter."

If you're "fumbling with a safety" when you present the gun, you need more and better practice. A lot more.

And if you can't or won't put in the time it takes for learning to operate a gun with a manual safety effectively and reflexively.....then you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun of ANY kind.


J.C.
 
I just picked up a Kahr MK9 yesterday, and knowing that it didn't have a saftey worried me for about 2 seconds about having one in the pipe. The holster covers the trigger, and I realized there is nothing to worry about.
 
Always with one in the pipe. Racking the slide is actually quite motor-intensive, and good luck doing under the kind of stress you'll encounter in a SD situation.

First off, you're assuming you'll have the use of both hands. One arm could be injured, or you could have your weak hand occupied by a flashlight, or using it to ward off an attacker already on top of you.

Second, your hands WILL be sweaty and shaking, and there's a good chance you'll fumble things. In that case, you'll most likely end up with a round that jams without going completely into battery, and you're screwed.

Handguns are meant to be carried with one in the pipe; that's what all those fancy safety mechanisms are for. As long as you follow the four rules, safety will never be an issue. Get a decent holster that covers the trigger, and PRACTICE drawing from concealment.

Live by the Four Rules, and you'll never end up in one of Alduro's posts :eek:
 
An unloaded gun, one with nothing in the chamber, is not what I want on my hip. But, if you feel unsafe with a chambered round, hey, that's a personal decision. I prefer DA or DAO guns for safe carry reasons, don't care too much for Glocks or even condition one SA carry, but there are plenty of people who carry them safely. Training, habit, safe gun handling are the key. Follow the rules of safe gun handling and you'll have no ADs.

The ONE style of gun I wouldn't carry with a chambered round is a striker fired SA, as with a Davis P380 or any of the cheap striker fired guns. I felt safe enough with my SA 1911 style autos in a thumb break which blocked the hammer. I was dealing with a manual safety, grip safety, firing pin block (series 80), and the thumb break as redundant safeties. I don't have a problem with that. Nor do I have a problem carrying DA guns hammer down as they are intended. I prefer decockers to safeties. No need for a safety on a DA gun with the hammer down or a DAO. One thing I believe in is GOOD leather, that'd be especially true if I carried a Glock.

If I was totally paranoid of autos carried with a chambered round, I'd carry a revolver. I like revolvers anyway. Nothing any safer to carry than a revolver and it's always ready to go bang. Carrying condition three would make me nervous, frankly. I know the Israelis do it, but I don't wanna have to rack a slide before pulling the trigger. No matter how fast I learn to do it, I'm faster if I don't have to do it. With a DA or DAO or revolver, just point the weapon and squeeze the trigger.
 
Cocked and Locked 1911. if I have to draw in a business that is being held up do I really want to give away my location by the sound of the slide?
 
The ONLY slide action I'd like to use in the event I needed to, would be the slide on a pump action shotgun. THAT, would have a much greater effect on the BGs than the sound of a semi-auto pistol slide.

IMHO that is. :D
 
QUOTE
I figure that if the troopers are constantly carrying their 40 calibers, and I find that percentage of holes through the floor boards, that it could very well happen to me, and I really do not want that.
Just my observation and opinion.
END QUOTE

There is a certain percentage of idiots in any field. Hence the holes in the floor boards. If your going to carry a gun carry a loaded one. An unloaded gun will get you hurt. Just keep your finger off the trigger. There are more negligent discharges logged with revolvers than with autos. So do you feel unsafe with revolvers also.
Pat
 
There are more negligent discharges logged with revolvers than with autos. So do you feel unsafe with revolvers also.
Click to expand...
Yep, if you really want to compare all the ADs for roughly a hundred years of carrying revolvers to all the ADs of roughly twenty years of carrying autos. Sometimes, you have be careful Pat--it's a little to easy to use statistics creatively. How about comparing the number of ADs the Washington DC PD experienced in the last five years they carried revolvers to the first five years they carried Glocks. You reckon "more negligent discharges logged with revolvers than with autos?"
 
The point is training is the issue not the weapon design. If you obey the safety rules and keep your finger off the trigger you will not have ND's. If you disobey the rules you will most likely have ND's sooner or later no matter what the gun type.
Pat
 
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