Carrying concealed against Employer's Policy

[357to44]

There are quite a few states where employers may prohibit gun permit holders to carry at work. If such an Employer suspects that an Employee carries in a concealed manner (but the Employee denies it), how can they enforce their discovery?

Would the answer be different depending on Employer being private or a state institution (due to the 4th Amendment imposing more limits on the Government)?

From Police viewpoint, there would be no violation in any case. Would police have to refuse getting involved because otherwise they may have to violate privacy (as permit rosters are not public)?

 

[9mmepiphany]

It may vary from state to state, but your major exposure wouldn't be criminal, but civil.

Usually the threat of termination would be the cost of non-cooperation/compliance with your employer

 

[357to44]

My interest is mostly in finding out if a personal search can be enforced to satisfy employer's curiosity.

> your major exposure wouldn't be criminal, but civil.

Do you mean the permit holder could face a civil lawsuit) or "just" an administrative action (up to termination)?

 

[nettlle]

If and employer prohibits firearms on the premises and the employer had reasonable suspicion that someone did have a firearm on the premises they would be responsible to those that did not have a firearm on the premises to investigate. Someone bringing a firearm on the premises when not allowed would be putting the employer between a rock and a hard place.

 

[ih772]

At my employer, refusing to allow a search of one's vehicle while on company property results in instant termination.

 

[Red Wind]

My Local Government employer prohibited carry on City property including their vehicles and their parking lots.
If you were discovered and had a CCW, the punishment was a 3 day suspension without pay.

A second offense was termination.

If you were discovered without a CCW, you were arrested and terminated on the spot.

They used dogs sniffing in the parking lots to cover their bases!

The no carry rule is buried in a 1,000 page employer handbook which is updated every year. Most employees don't read that book. A one day a year seminar is given to all employees in a large auditorium. But in my almost 20 years, guns were never mentioned at those meetings. So once in a while someone gets caught.

Your defenses are few and expensive when this occurs. The handbook rules.

This was in a Florida city. I retired in 2003, but those rules remain in effect there, according to my old pals who are still at the grindstone.

 

[Jim K]

Contrary to what the OP seems to believe, the carrier would have less, not more gun rights in government buildings. Here is Federal law:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930

Note that it applies to anyone, employee and visitor alike, unless authorized, and a CCW license is not authorization.

Jim

 

[USAF_Vet]

Personal property can be searched if on company property in most cases. A refusal to search is typically grounds for termination. But if the OP is asking about a personal search, as in a concealed weapon on your person that may be slightly different. Unwanted touching, regardless of reason, like a pat down or frisk by a non-law-enforcement person (the HR manager or supervisor is not law enforcement) is considered harassment by the company handbook, potentially assault.

*Can they search your car parked in the company lot? Yes.
Can they search your locker? Yes.
Can they search your lunch bag, tool box, etc? Yes.
Can they search your body? I'm inclined to say no, but they would likely call a police officer to do the search for them, which opens up a lot of liability. Can cops enforce company policy? I'd say no unless there was a clear criminal violation. My CPL does not forbid me to carry onto company property because I do not work in a state mandated gun free zone like a casino or hospital, and I don't work in a government building. Carry a concealed weapon is a violation of company policy, and company policy is not the law. So it's highly questionable if a cop would even be able to do anything in the first place, let alone the company.




*the following may or may not be applicable to all states*

 

[yugorpk]

Depends on how much you want to keep your job and how fast you think you can land another. How high is your value as an employee? Iv'e know HR managers and VP's who carried every day against company policy and Ive kept a .357 in my desk for good reason again against company policy. We all make choices.

 

[lawson4]

As an LEO, I would refuse to search someone to satisfy a company policy. If I was called regarding "a man with a gun", and found out it was just to ascertain if he was violating company policy, the caller would be in trouble.

Rick

 

[Speedo66]

In states where a proper sign forbidding firearms on the premises carries the weight of law, you might have a problem if said sign was posted.

In such a case, if the company had good reason to believe you were in possession of a firearm, they would be within their rights to call the police.

At that point, you'd better have your resume up to date.

 

[Ryanxia]

Find out if your State has a law where a no firearms sign carries the weight of law. Many States like mine it does not. The most a company can do is ask you to leave and if you refuse, call the police for trespassing. In the case of an employer (in my State) they absolutely have no Right to search you (assuming a private company, not government) but we are an 'at will' State so they can terminate employment any time they want. But luckily, out of sight out of mind.

We also got a State law passed that says an employer (again, private company) cannot ban you from having firearms in your vehicle on company property.

 

[Tirod]

In the few instances where an employee did have a handgun present and used it in self defense, some were fired. Some were not.

Of those who lost their jobs, some were rehired when the consumers patronizing that company helped the decision makers correct their choice with new information. Loss of revenue outvoted their anti gun sentiments.

Money does that.

There are policies with more serious follow up than guns - get injured on the job or have an accident with a company vehicle, mandatory drug testing will be the next step. Failure is termination.

If you just happen to be outed with a gun on you, that might not happen. Depends on the circumstances and what local laws require. My company has a no guns rule, but the locations in the KC metro where shootings have occurred on the property - the rule seems to be suspended.

Companies are people and the idea of losing even more revenue fighting a lawsuit where it's already been demonstrated the company cannot provide adequate security is simply foolish. So, the employees get to carry guns and the company doesn't have to hire security.

White collar cubicle farms are a sheltered environment where common sense will often be lacking. Think chickens being raised in confinement vs free range.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Keep in mind that many employment contracts include a clause that says you can be terminated for not complying with an investigation.

Mike

 

[Rockrivr1]

As with anything else concealed means concealed and that you also keep your mouth shut about guns and CCWing at work. If an employer thinks your carrying it's because you failed to keep yourself concealed. If you CCW against policy you need to make damn sure your firearm and method of concealing are tried and true. If you have any doubt of this then don't CCW.

In today's world a threat or workplace shooting can happen anywhere. If you don't carry make sure you have a well rehearsed escape plan.

 

[Kleanbore]

If you CCW against policy you need to make damn sure your firearm and method of concealing are tried and true. If you have any doubt of this then don't CCW.

Necessary, but perhaps not sufficient.

 

[mrdeltoid]

4th Amendment rights apply only to searches conducted by law enforcement, govt officials... If a private individual or a private entity like a company (and a person acting on their behalf) searches you, it isn't a 4th Amendment violation. That doesn't mean the search is ethical or legal. If not legal, then its a violation of other laws.

However, the overall issue is you agree to abide by a workplace's policies when you go to work. If they have it in their policy that you can be searched, then you go along with that or work somewhere else.

 

[Sunray]

"...a search of one's vehicle while on company property..." That would violate one's civil rights just like an employer trying to search one's person. And employment contracts or any contract cannot take your rights away or change a law. Mind you, it'd be up to you to file the complaint with whatever Employment Standards is called where you are. Kind of doubt you'd get much help with a CCW thing though. If that's the case, you can alway$ hire a lawyer.
Police would refuse to get involved because it's not a criminal act to violate the rights of an employee.

 

[ZWCoffindaffer]

A very large and well known company in Savannah GA recently randomly swept their parking lot and everyone who even had a firearm in their vehicle lost their job. A lot of guys who hunt had their shotguns or rifles in their truck and lost their job over it. I dont believe its right, but if they have a company policy of no firearms I guess thats their business

 

[Red Wind]

That's a very sad story, ZWCoffindaffer. It probably happens every day in some employee parking lot in America.

Some of those Savannah guys lost long held jobs,pensions and face enormous grief. Depressing to put it mildly.

 

[Apachedriver]

What company took that action? Or is it verboten to name names?

 

[ZWCoffindaffer]

I don't suppose it matters. It was Gulfstream Aerospace. I would say id never use their company again but I wasn't in the market for a G6 anyways.

 

[BSA1]

Gulfstream Aerospace

Link?

Google-foo is missing.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...employment contracts or any contract cannot take your rights away...

Cite legal authority to support that claim. In general it is not true.

Unless prohibited or regulated specifically by a state law, an employer may require as a condition of employment that an employee consent to searches of the employee's work station, bags or parcels brought onto the company premises, or car parked on company property. An employee's failure to allow such search can then be grounds to terminate the employee's employment for cause.

 

[mstreddy]

It's stories like those above that make me glad to live in FL. FL passed a state law a few years ago that allows employees to have a gun in their vehicle, and basically prevents company policy from trumping it. There are a few exceptions codified in the law.
Red Wind, I don't think the FL City govt facility would now be allowed to prevent you from having a gun in your personal vehicle.
See FL Statute 790.251 Protection of the right to keep and bear arms in motor vehicles for self-defense and other lawful purposes; prohibited acts; duty of public and private employers; immunity from liability; enforcement.

I am glad that FL finally codified the protection for gun owners, as in the past I could have gone afoul of company policy by having gun in my vehicle. I work for a community college and needless to say, it's not the most supportive towards gun rights.
I am hoping the FL legislature passes the campus carry bill, even though lots of folks on campus are wringing their hands already. Even some that own guns...