Case corrosion - when to load 'em, and when to fold 'em?

[bear166]

Howdy folks. I've been shooting BPCR for a while now, and I'm starting to suspect my case cleaning process is woefully lacking. Up till now, I've been using either new brass or brass previously loaded with smokeless, but I've come to the end of my 45-70 supply and it's time to breathe new life into them.

But honestly I'm not sure if I can. I just came back to some brass that I cleaned a long time ago, and frankly they look the opposite of clean.

It's kind of a long story, but for a variety of reasons I'm not really able to use my wet or my dry tumbler right now, same as when these were fired. I put them in a tupperware container with some water and some Dawn, shook 'em up, let them soak for a while, and then blew them out and let them dry. There was still some crud around the case mouths, but I didn't worry about it too much at the time. Now I come to find out that they are riddled with corrosion, mostly on the inside, but there's a bit on the outside as well on some of the cases. See attached pictures.

So my question is two-fold. For one thing, can these be salvaged? 50 of them were brand-new Starline that ran me about a buck a pop, so I'm not enthusiastic about having to scrap them. While I kind of doubt they're fit to load at least in their current state, is there a way to remove all of the corrosion and be able to safely load them up again and end up with an accurate cartridge? To be clear, that's my only concern here. Frankly if it doesn't effect the strength of the brass and doesn't throw off performance, I really don't care what it looks like. But I imagine I need to get this stuff out of there, if I can even use it again in the first place.

Second, how do I avoid this happening again? I'm guessing people didn't just plug in their tumblers in the days before electricity to clean their cases, so there's got to be some way I can get 'em clean without everything turning green. Thanks in advance for any advice you might have on either point.

 

[hawg]

That place on the outside of the case looks like it's going to be etched pretty good. I'd most likely toss them.

 

[beag_nut]

Ultrasonic cleaner.

 

[bear166]

Ultrasonic cleaner.

While I sure wouldn't mind having one, I'd prefer not to have to buy another cleaning device and for similar reasons to the tumbler (basically, I don't have much room in my garage where my reloading is done and frankly don't trust the wiring in there all that much) wouldn't really be able to use it right now.

 

[Seedy Character]

Dry or wet, clean them

If the case comes out rough or pitted, toss it.
If the case is only discolored, but basically smooth; load it.

I have picked up range brass, that layed outside for who knows how long. Cleaned with walnut hulls and Nu-Finish, they come out clean and smooth, but not shiny new.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

I deprime and throw mine in water at a match or as soon as I get home. They usually don't corrode after that. I then wet tumble mine when I get a batch large enough using stainless pins. They come out looking like new usually inside and out and even the primer pockets.

I have actually left mine in water for a long time until I get enough for a batch and they never corrode in the water the brass is just black looking but they clean up like new when tumbling. I have wondered if leaving brass in water for an extended period like that hurts it. I know it definitely cleans up nicer than if it gets corrosion on it.

 

[Captain*kirk]

I do like Cliff. I toss them in a coffee can with water and a spritz of dish soap hot out of the oven and agitate every few minutes. They stay there until I get home, then the dirty water is drained and refilled with fresh. ASAP they go into the wet tumbler with the SS pins and brass cleaner for several hours, then dry and into the dry tumbler.
But to answer your question...they may be too far gone. Get the corrosion off them and carefully inspect. Use a light and magnifying glass. I did the same thing with my first batch of .45LC cases. I was able to save them after 8 days, but barely. There was no pitting but there is some discoloring that will always be there. Live and learn.

 

[swg1]

I’d be suspicious and toss those. And to prevent it in the future, lacking an ultrasonic or wet tumbler, you’ll probably want to scrub them with a brush, just like washing test-tubes. After drying, you’ll want to keep an eye on them for a bit to make sure no corrosion sneaks up on you.

I drop my cases in a diluted solution of either water soluble oil (black powder solvent, lmoose milk” or ballistic) at the range and then scrub them clean at home.

Good luck with however you want to approach the issue.

 

[Jim Watson]

Like the others, I learned to drop my BPCR cases in soapy water at the range, usually decapping first.
I scrubbed a lot of cases with a bottle brush but went to wet tumbling, first with ceramic media, then steel.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Soap, water, bottle brush.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Kind of puzzling, that's about all I do to clean mine. But...I toss them in hot soapy water right after firing them, (de-cap first) and leave them over night. Like to "agitate" them when I can, but mostly just sit in the soapy water. Being lazy and absent minded, they often stay in the water much longer than over-night.

After I dump the water out I put them (stand them upright) on a hot plate, and just get them hot enough to dry them completely. Never have had corrosion after that. ?

I'm guessing yours didn't dry out fast enough. ?

Using a bottle brush would be a good idea. I might start doing that.

 

[Fooey]

Dry or wet, clean them

If the case comes out rough or pitted, toss it.
If the case is only discolored, but basically smooth; load it.

I have picked up range brass, that layed outside for who knows how long. Cleaned with walnut hulls and Nu-Finish, they come out clean and smooth, but not shiny new.

I agree. And maybe a bore brush chucked in a handheld drill for the inside. Brass only contains the gasses, the rifle chamber and bolt lugs contain the pressure. Brass failures are not usually too dramatic in my experience. Yep, I have fired some questionable brass thru the years.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

A brass failure in a straight walled case would most likely just result in neck cracking. Maybe a case separation in the worst "case" scenario. But I'd be surprised to see that with a straight wall case. Might still be good for "carbine" loads. ! Or shot loads. A .45-70 case will hold quite a bit of shot for them tasty feathered critters.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I use a .45 cal bore brush in mine, then soak in soapy water, dry and tumble. About every 5 th loading I like to anneal the cases by standing them in a pan of water about an inch deep, heat them with a propane torch and tip em over into the water.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Bear, how did you dry them cases? I'm still thinking that they just were not dried well. Is that possible? I think that if you make sure they are totally dry (some kind of heat) that won't happen again. I put mine on a hot plate, or stand them up in a fry pan on the stove and give them enough heat to ensure they are dry. But at the price of brass these days, and rising, might pay to do everything else mentioned. I know I'm going to start cleaning mine better after they come out of their bath.

The cool thing about a straight walled case only fired at BP pressures is that they should just about last forever.

 

[bear166]

I only let mine soak for about 30 minutes and there was about a 30 minute delay before they were put into water. Previously I just shook them and blew them out (by blowing on them, nothing special) to get as much water out as possible, then laid them on a towel to dry. I think maybe that's the step where things went wrong.

I shot 25 rounds out of my new Sharps this last weekend, and did things all pretty much the same except I left them upside down so as to continue draining over time. So far, those don't seem to have corroded at all.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I think that's it. Put some heat on them suckers, don't depend on draining or air-drying. !! A new Sharps...dang...wish I could say that. Haven't had my Trapdoor rifle out in a while...probably need to shoot it a bit...instead of wishing for something else.

 

[Zygodactyl]

For my 577 Snider and 577/450 Martini Henry I drop them in soapy water at the range. When I get back I deprime and use a brush and then resoak them in soapy water then rinse and let them air dry. I then either throw them in the dry tumbler or the wet one with steel pins. If I use pyrodex (only when its that or nothing), I do what Hodgdon recommends and soak them for 10 minutes in a 50/50 vinegar water solution to neutralize the fouling before I clean them. It darkens the brass but the wet tumbler will restore the shine. I've been using the same Snider brass for years and with the wet tumbler it still looks new.

 

[bear166]

I think that's it. Put some heat on them suckers, don't depend on draining or air-drying. !! A new Sharps...dang...wish I could say that. Haven't had my Trapdoor rifle out in a while...probably need to shoot it a bit...instead of wishing for something else.

Well... New to me! A fella I know was wanting to get rid of it, it's a fairly basic Cabela's Pedersoli model from at least a decade back (it still says "Sidney, Nebraska" on it). I can relate, as far as shooting the Trapdoor instead of wishing for something new. I haven't shot mine since July I think, and I was really beating myself up over wanting a new toy instead of playing with the one I have. But it was too good a deal to pass up, the rifle, three moulds, another set of dies, a drop tube, a ton of wads, and 500 or so primers plus some other goodies for $1,000. I didn't need any of it, but I can't say I regret it.

You're probably right about the heat. I'll have to figure something out there.

I've also heard vinegar and water works pretty well on real black powder as well. Maybe I'll give that a shot too.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I was kind of wondering about adding vinegar to the soapy water. But was afraid to ask. For some weird reason, unknown even to I, I like dark stained cases with the "old" look. ! So I never tumble or polish them.

 

[LaneP]

All I've ever done (believe a few here do same) is punch the primer on a decapping die, toss them in a jug with hot water and a squirt of dish detergent, agitate for a minute, rinse with cold water to kill the suds, spread on a baking sheet in the oven for 10-12 minutes at 200 degrees, then toss them in my vibratory case cleaner (walnut media) for a few hours. They always come out spotless and ready to reload. I got that routine from Mike Venturino years ago.

 

[bear166]

I was kind of wondering about adding vinegar to the soapy water. But was afraid to ask. For some weird reason, unknown even to I, I like dark stained cases with the "old" look. ! So I never tumble or polish them.

Agreed on that, honestly one other reason I haven't tried tumbling them is because (to me) they look absolutely perfect right out of the water. I normally do tumble my smokeless brass just because I go through a lot more of it (or did before my interest in BP really took off) and I'm kind of lazy. Hard to deny that it can get the cases really nice looking, but I also like them looking old and worn down a bit. Maybe it has something to do with the same reason I like old rifles, and old tools, and old everything else.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

All I've ever done (believe a few here do same) is punch the primer on a decapping die, toss them in a jug with hot water and a squirt of dish detergent, agitate for a minute, rinse with cold water to kill the suds, spread on a baking sheet in the oven for 10-12 minutes at 200 degrees, then toss them in my vibratory case cleaner (walnut media) for a few hours. They always come out spotless and ready to reload. I got that routine from Mike Venturino years ago.

View attachment 1046716

Wow that is a nice looking rifle. Both of mine have much more...ah..."character". My carbine was made in 1876, so she's been around for a while. My rifle came with Buffington sights, but they just don't work for me. My eyes are "okay", but I did have trouble seeing them well. So I found me the older sights on ebay or somewhere, and put them on.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I only let mine soak for about 30 minutes and there was about a 30 minute delay before they were put into water. Previously I just shook them and blew them out (by blowing on them, nothing special) to get as much water out as possible, then laid them on a towel to dry. I think maybe that's the step where things went wrong.

Howdy

The answer to cleaning brass after shooting it with Black Powder is several rinses to dilute and rinse away the fouling.

I don't shoot BPCR, but I have been loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40 as well as 45-70 with Black Powder for Cowboy Action for close to 20 years now.

At the end of a match, I drop my cases into a jug of water that has a squirt of dish soap added. It is not necessary to dump the brass in the jug directly after shooting them, the end of the match is plenty of time.






Notice how cloudy with BP fouling the water is. The jug sits on the floor of the car for the drive home, the vibration keeps the water agitated.

Again, the key to cleaning the brass is lots of rinsing with fresh water. I actually do not always rinse the brass right away, sometimes I wait a week or more. All this does is stain the brass a bit more than if I had rinsed it right away. I dump the brass out of the jug into an ordinary kitchen sieve, fill the jug with fresh water and dump the brass back in the jug, giving it a good shake to stir it up good. Repeat several times until the rinse water runs clear. If you don't rinse it enough, the fouling will still be on the brass.

Years ago I to then place the wet brass on a cookie sheet with paper towels and dry it under very low heat in the oven. I stopped doing that years ago. Now I just lay the wet brass onto a cookie sheet covered with paper towels and allow it air dry for a day or two.

After the brass is dry I dump it into my tumbler with the same type of crushed walnut shells that I use for Smokeless.

That's all there is to it. The key is lots of rinsing to wash away the fouling.

Once my brass comes out of the tumbler, it is stained, it is not shiny like new. The tumbler and crushed walnut does not make it shiny like new.

I don't care. I always say stained brass shoots just as well as shiny brass, it is just harder to find in the grass.

I use no heat at all with my method, all the rinsing is done with cold water.

Beware of adding vinegar, vinegar in contact with brass for too long will leach some of the copper out of the brass and make it brittle.

I found out years ago that if I waited 24 hours to dump my brass in water, it would turn green with verdigris, which is what you are seeing. The key to avoiding this to dump the brass in water fairly soon, and then rinse the dickens out of it.

Also, for what it's worth, I do not decap my brass before dumping it in water. I load most of my BP stuff on a progressive press, and decapping would mean stopping the reloading process to rinse everything, then picking up again partway through. So I never decap before soaking.

Been doing this for about 20 years now, not a problem.

Here is a photo of brand new 45 Colt brass being loaded with Black Powder on my Hornady Lock and Load AP press. Nice and shiny. It will never be that shiny again.






Here is a photo of a batch of 45 Colt and 44-40 brass after rinsing and air drying, but before tumbling. Not shiny any more.






A batch of 44-40 ammo after the brass has been rinsed, dried, and tumbled. No idea how many times this brass has been loaded, probably lots of times. It will never be shiny again, but like I said, stained brass is not dirty, it is just stained. And it shoots just as well as ammo loaded into shiny brass.






Here is my Trapdoor with some of my BP 45-70 ammo. Note the brass is not shiny. Shoots just fine.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

The jug sits on the floor of the car for the drive home, the vibration keeps the water agitated.

If I put my brass in a jug with walnut shell media, and set it on the floor of my '73 Dodge Power Wagon, those suckers would be shining when I got home. Or perhaps there'd be nothing left. Just brassy walnut shell. ! If I did the water thing, nothing but suds.