Owen Sparks
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Any time someone lunges toward your pistol it is deadly serious. The two times that I have actually drawn on someone I told them to stop and they did. I left immediatly.
Fist fight, blocked exit, CC
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Any time someone lunges toward your pistol it is deadly serious.
Agreed. This is also a good reason to learn some retention techniques and in certain circumstances would justify you drawing on them.
The two times that I have actually drawn on someone I told them to stop and they did. I left immediatly.
I wasn't there so I know there is more to these instances. Had you stayed and the police responded you most likely would have been the one to go to jail.
If you only carry a gun for SD you're putting yourself in a bad posiyion and will see every SD incident as something that should be solved with a gun. Pepper spray and an expandable baton (where legal) and some SD classes would give you options to use, Most SD confrontations don't justify use of deadly force.
Agreed. This is also a good reason to learn some retention techniques and in certain circumstances would justify you drawing on them.
The two times that I have actually drawn on someone I told them to stop and they did. I left immediatly.
I wasn't there so I know there is more to these instances. Had you stayed and the police responded you most likely would have been the one to go to jail.
If you only carry a gun for SD you're putting yourself in a bad posiyion and will see every SD incident as something that should be solved with a gun. Pepper spray and an expandable baton (where legal) and some SD classes would give you options to use, Most SD confrontations don't justify use of deadly force.
Ridgerunner665
Member
2 separate incidents that have happened to me (OTR truck driver)...I realize not everybody is "physically capable" of fighting hand to hand, however that does not apply to me...
I'm quite good at it
I was walking into the truckstop and a guy came up to me trying to say he knew me from the Navy (I was never in the Navy), I didn't know him...and while I suck at remembering names, I NEVER forget a face.
I told him "No...I don't know you" and kept walking (I'm not a very friendly person unless there is a reason behind it, and he should have taken the hint)...as I walked out past a truck another guy grabbed me by my left arm and jerked me back and around...I never saw his face, and honestly didn't care if he was my best friend...I drew the pistol as I came around (an all steel 1911...makes a good club too), and whacked him right up side the head with it, HARD. He went out like a light, with a pretty good gash across his temple and fore head.
His buddy was still standing there a few feet away...I asked him if he wanted to continue this...he took off in a hurry without even saying goodbye.
Myself...I would just as soon left that other guy laying there and not gave him another thought (dead, alive...I don't care)...but there were several witnesses to this, and they called the police before it was even over (and it didn't last long)...cops showed up, I explained what happened, they told me they had been looking for that guy that was knocked out...he was wanted for failure to appear in court, and he had priors (aggravated assault, burglary, etc...I forget what else, this has been a while back)
In the end...it worked out good, I didn't even have to press any charges...he was going to jail anyway, and that was good enough for me. (I would likely lose my job if ever had to shoot...there are no company policies against me carrying where I work, but I'd rather not press the matter on them when it comes to their "public image"...this is why I prefer to avoid getting involved in the red tape whenever possible)
The cops told me "Good job, drive safe"...and that was it.
And in case anybody is wondering why I didn't shoot them...I never saw a weapon on either of them, thats why. The cops did find a 9mm (Jennings ) on the guy that was knocked out....but it never made it out of the pocket of those baggy @$$ jeans.
Another time...this one was in Georgia. (actually, this happened before the one mentioned above)
I pulled into a TA truckstop to get fuel and food at about 10:30 am. after fueling I went inside to Burger King and got a meal to go, then went back to the truck to eat. I was sitting in the sleeper...about 3 bites into my Whopper when my truck door came open and a guy climbed in and sat down for about 1 second, then turned toward the sleeper...it was about this time that he decided he had gotten in the wrong truck (I could see it in his eyes)... What he saw was me chewing up a bite of Whopper with a 45 pointed at his head.
He quickly said he had accidently gotten in the wrong truck...I replied "You're damn right you did"...then he carefully backed out of my truck and left.
Maybe he was telling the truth...after all, I have stuck my key in the wrong truck door...a couple of times.
Maybe he just didnt expect the 45...I'll never know.
I ALWAYS lock my doors when I'm in the truck...why I didnt that time is beyond me.
And, as always...the pistol is a last resort...its better to avoid the situation entirely, but they sneak up on you sometimes.
I'm quite good at it I was walking into the truckstop and a guy came up to me trying to say he knew me from the Navy (I was never in the Navy), I didn't know him...and while I suck at remembering names, I NEVER forget a face.
I told him "No...I don't know you" and kept walking (I'm not a very friendly person unless there is a reason behind it, and he should have taken the hint)...as I walked out past a truck another guy grabbed me by my left arm and jerked me back and around...I never saw his face, and honestly didn't care if he was my best friend...I drew the pistol as I came around (an all steel 1911...makes a good club too), and whacked him right up side the head with it, HARD. He went out like a light, with a pretty good gash across his temple and fore head.
His buddy was still standing there a few feet away...I asked him if he wanted to continue this...he took off in a hurry without even saying goodbye.
Myself...I would just as soon left that other guy laying there and not gave him another thought (dead, alive...I don't care)...but there were several witnesses to this, and they called the police before it was even over (and it didn't last long)...cops showed up, I explained what happened, they told me they had been looking for that guy that was knocked out...he was wanted for failure to appear in court, and he had priors (aggravated assault, burglary, etc...I forget what else, this has been a while back)
In the end...it worked out good, I didn't even have to press any charges...he was going to jail anyway, and that was good enough for me. (I would likely lose my job if ever had to shoot...there are no company policies against me carrying where I work, but I'd rather not press the matter on them when it comes to their "public image"...this is why I prefer to avoid getting involved in the red tape whenever possible)
The cops told me "Good job, drive safe"...and that was it.
And in case anybody is wondering why I didn't shoot them...I never saw a weapon on either of them, thats why. The cops did find a 9mm (Jennings ) on the guy that was knocked out....but it never made it out of the pocket of those baggy @$$ jeans.
Another time...this one was in Georgia. (actually, this happened before the one mentioned above)
I pulled into a TA truckstop to get fuel and food at about 10:30 am. after fueling I went inside to Burger King and got a meal to go, then went back to the truck to eat. I was sitting in the sleeper...about 3 bites into my Whopper when my truck door came open and a guy climbed in and sat down for about 1 second, then turned toward the sleeper...it was about this time that he decided he had gotten in the wrong truck (I could see it in his eyes)... What he saw was me chewing up a bite of Whopper with a 45 pointed at his head.
He quickly said he had accidently gotten in the wrong truck...I replied "You're damn right you did"...then he carefully backed out of my truck and left.
Maybe he was telling the truth...after all, I have stuck my key in the wrong truck door...a couple of times.
Maybe he just didnt expect the 45...I'll never know.
I ALWAYS lock my doors when I'm in the truck...why I didnt that time is beyond me.
And, as always...the pistol is a last resort...its better to avoid the situation entirely, but they sneak up on you sometimes.
Owen Sparks
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The two times that I have actually drawn on someone I told them to stop and they did. I left immediately.
I chose not to involve the police. Both incidents happened in the rural South with no witnesses.
I chose not to involve the police. Both incidents happened in the rural South with no witnesses.
I drew the pistol as I came around (an all steel 1911...makes a good club too), and whacked him right up side the head with it, HARD.
In your case an expandable baton, tire billy, or many other things would have served you better. Any handgun is an awkward impact weapon compared to anything designed for striking. The danger in what you did was there is a possibilty you could damage your gun and render it inoperable, if you needed it then it wasn't going to be working. I have seen this happen to several handguns that were used as impact weapons, usually revolvers but yes...I've seen it happen to a steel frame 1911.
I chose not to involve the police. Both incidents happened in the rural South with no witnesses.
I can understand why you chose not to involve the police and were lucky there were no witnesses. I can justify your actions if you are in a wheelchair but think, based on what you related here, your actions were as wrong in the rural South as they would be anywhere else. Choosing to solve all your SD problems with a gun is going to get you in trobule someday.
In your case an expandable baton, tire billy, or many other things would have served you better. Any handgun is an awkward impact weapon compared to anything designed for striking. The danger in what you did was there is a possibilty you could damage your gun and render it inoperable, if you needed it then it wasn't going to be working. I have seen this happen to several handguns that were used as impact weapons, usually revolvers but yes...I've seen it happen to a steel frame 1911.
I chose not to involve the police. Both incidents happened in the rural South with no witnesses.
I can understand why you chose not to involve the police and were lucky there were no witnesses. I can justify your actions if you are in a wheelchair but think, based on what you related here, your actions were as wrong in the rural South as they would be anywhere else. Choosing to solve all your SD problems with a gun is going to get you in trobule someday.
kingpin008
Member
Hard to get any better than stopping an attacker in his tracks....
Ridgerunner665
Member
But a person can only carry so much...I'm a flat bed trucker (meaning I actually work for living, physical labor)...I had the gun with me, as I always do (as well as a knife). Now, if people seen a trucker with pepper spray, expandable batons, carrying a tire iron, and all that...just to walk into a truck stop...that may attract undue attention.
Good guys been pistol whipping bad guys for a long time (and vice versa)....sure, I reckon there is a chance of damaging the pistol (especially if some idiot grabbed it by the barrel and hit someone over the head with the "magazine")...but the odds are slim if its done right.
There was nothing awkward about it...I whacked him with it while I had a full grip on it, hit him with the front half of the slide...on the side.
Good guys been pistol whipping bad guys for a long time (and vice versa)....sure, I reckon there is a chance of damaging the pistol (especially if some idiot grabbed it by the barrel and hit someone over the head with the "magazine")...but the odds are slim if its done right.
There was nothing awkward about it...I whacked him with it while I had a full grip on it, hit him with the front half of the slide...on the side.
kingpin008
Member
Right. In a perfect world, we'd all chose to carry and use every possible tool imaginable that would keep us from having to use guns. However, this ain't a perfect world, and sometimes you have to make due with what you have. In this case, he had an improvised impact weapon...his pistol.
Keep in mind that even using the firearm as it was intended to be used could have resulted in a malfunction. Should we carry a backup? What about a backup to the backup?
We can armchair quarterback all we want, but the fact is that using the gun as a club stopped the attack, which is pretty much the perfect outcome of any violent encounter.
Keep in mind that even using the firearm as it was intended to be used could have resulted in a malfunction. Should we carry a backup? What about a backup to the backup?
We can armchair quarterback all we want, but the fact is that using the gun as a club stopped the attack, which is pretty much the perfect outcome of any violent encounter.
You can get a pepper spray a lot smaller than a gun and as I've said more use for that as most SD encounters don't require deadly force.
there is a chance of damaging the pistol (especially if some idiot grabbed it by the barrel and hit someone over the head with the "magazine")...but the odds are slim if its done right.
I've been to numerous LE training sessions but I've never had anyone show me the "right way" to pistol whip someone. Okay that its your choice just not mine.
However, this ain't a perfect world, and sometimes you have to make due with what you have.
Keep in mind that even using the firearm as it was intended to be used could have resulted in a malfunction.
I have had to make do at times for a variety of things. Yes you can have a malfunction when using it as intended, I just prefer to give the firearm to malfunction "naturally" rather than use it as a club. How does that go? If you only carry a hammer you'll see every problem as a nail? Or something like that.
If you guys feel okay with what you're doing that's fine...I just don't think it the most prudent course of action and easily avoided.
there is a chance of damaging the pistol (especially if some idiot grabbed it by the barrel and hit someone over the head with the "magazine")...but the odds are slim if its done right.
I've been to numerous LE training sessions but I've never had anyone show me the "right way" to pistol whip someone. Okay that its your choice just not mine.
However, this ain't a perfect world, and sometimes you have to make due with what you have.
Keep in mind that even using the firearm as it was intended to be used could have resulted in a malfunction.
I have had to make do at times for a variety of things. Yes you can have a malfunction when using it as intended, I just prefer to give the firearm to malfunction "naturally" rather than use it as a club. How does that go? If you only carry a hammer you'll see every problem as a nail? Or something like that.
If you guys feel okay with what you're doing that's fine...I just don't think it the most prudent course of action and easily avoided.
Ridgerunner665
Member
Just to keep it in perspective...
I've never been to any LE training sessions, I'm just an aging redneck thats been around the block a time or 2 (been on both ends of a "beat down")...and I have the scars to prove it.
A person will use whatever is available...guns, knives, beer bottles, whiskey bottles, cars doors, brooms, mops, phone books, or wiffle ball bats....if its within reach...use it.
EDITED TO ADD: Since I began carrying a pistol (nearly 17 years ago) I have read everything ever written by Jeff Cooper...mostly because after just a little reading, I found out that we thought alike...I agreed with everything he wrote, before I ever read it. Maybe considered a bit "old school" these days, but it fits my personality (it comes natural to me)
I've never been to any LE training sessions, I'm just an aging redneck thats been around the block a time or 2 (been on both ends of a "beat down")...and I have the scars to prove it.
A person will use whatever is available...guns, knives, beer bottles, whiskey bottles, cars doors, brooms, mops, phone books, or wiffle ball bats....if its within reach...use it.
EDITED TO ADD: Since I began carrying a pistol (nearly 17 years ago) I have read everything ever written by Jeff Cooper...mostly because after just a little reading, I found out that we thought alike...I agreed with everything he wrote, before I ever read it. Maybe considered a bit "old school" these days, but it fits my personality (it comes natural to me)
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kingpin008
Member
In the case of Ridgerunner, pepper spray would have been a poor choice given the extremely close quarters of the encounter, not to mention being spun around like he described. Sounds like a great way to catch a face full of your own OC. Ditto with successfully deploying a collapsible baton - short strikes would likely be possible, but to get the "full effect" you'd need more room to swing.
Where did anyone say that the gun was the only choice for any of these events? If you guessed nowhere, you'd be correct.
I don't think the fact that the use of a gun as an improvised impact weapon is less than ideal, and should be avoided if at all possible is lost on anyone here. That's common sense. Or, that brandishing a gun is always the best response to a threat. It just happened to work at the time and really, that's the best any of us can do. To keep insisting that others have made bad choices when it's obvious that their actions ultimately resulted in the desired outcome of no harm coming to them is, IMHO a bit pointless.
Where did anyone say that the gun was the only choice for any of these events? If you guessed nowhere, you'd be correct.
I don't think the fact that the use of a gun as an improvised impact weapon is less than ideal, and should be avoided if at all possible is lost on anyone here. That's common sense. Or, that brandishing a gun is always the best response to a threat. It just happened to work at the time and really, that's the best any of us can do. To keep insisting that others have made bad choices when it's obvious that their actions ultimately resulted in the desired outcome of no harm coming to them is, IMHO a bit pointless.
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Ridgerunner665
Member
Good post Kingpin...
And it comes back to what we can or will carry with us at all times....for me that is a gun and a knife.
I had those 2 choices...had I used the knife, the guy would be dead because that swing that knocked him out would have instead, nearly decapitated him.
Why did I draw the pistol to begin with? I could have just hit the guy with my fist...might have still knocked him out.
BUT...given the situation (and location), I was expecting a weapon to show up somewhere and didn't want to be the slow one on the draw.
Brandishing? Maybe...but like you said, it worked...that time.
These things happen faster than fast...whatever a person decides to do...do it quick and without hesitation.
And it comes back to what we can or will carry with us at all times....for me that is a gun and a knife.
I had those 2 choices...had I used the knife, the guy would be dead because that swing that knocked him out would have instead, nearly decapitated him.
Why did I draw the pistol to begin with? I could have just hit the guy with my fist...might have still knocked him out.
BUT...given the situation (and location), I was expecting a weapon to show up somewhere and didn't want to be the slow one on the draw.
Brandishing? Maybe...but like you said, it worked...that time.
These things happen faster than fast...whatever a person decides to do...do it quick and without hesitation.
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That is one of those situations that you have to decide for yourself, because it always has the potential of being a lose for you anyways.
You may go to prison for using your gun, and you may go to the morgue if they manage to take it.
You may suffer permanent injury exchanging blows.
You may become a criminal, your word against theirs, when you use non lethal force to injure them while escaping, and when the police arrive they have the injuries and you have different stories.
You may both become criminals charged for the resulting fight you never wanted to be in when police arrive and charge both involved and let the courts try to figure out the truth.
There is no solution that will always work, and it is your life and your choice what course of action to make. Some options are better than others in different ways. Some more likely to help you leave, and some that will look better to a jury later but are less certain to have a safe outcome for you physically.
The ideal scenario is no force needed and leaving.
It may require humiliation, you losing respect and pride, or even result in future problems and requirements that do need more force because you are seen as an easy target in the future by those present. But legally it is the best course of action every time.
If you act like a tough guy to discourage them and they call your 'bluff' you are a mutual combatant instead of a victim. Many witnesses have fuzzy or poor memories, but are more likely to remember the demeanor of those involved. Two tough guys squaring off sends a different message and will be remembered differently than one thug threatening someone that seemed visibly afraid of confrontation and was trying to avoid it.
As for people with stories of pulling their gun and everything working fine, sometimes that works, and sometimes the guy tries to take it and gets shot. Then you get to go to trial and explain why you had to shoot the unarmed guy you pulled a gun on, instead of a pat on the back from the cops. Sometimes the court believes you, and sometimes they think you used excessive force and send you to prison.
We had a great cite of a story of a man attacked by three neighbors in his driveway in Arizona not that long ago. While on the ground and being attacked by multiple people he finally pulled his gun and fired some shots.
He still went through two trials, with the some of the best expert witnesses on his side, and was never found not guilty, just two hung juries with no verdict. So he still almost lost twice and some jury members obviously felt strongly he should go to prison in both trials.
That was a guy being attacked by three people, on the ground, likely to suffer serious injury or death from his unarmed attackers.
What will the jury think about your one?
Some regions of the country and locals also react differently on a general basis to certain courses of action. In one jurisdiction what typically gets you a pat on the back typically results in arrest and charges a few counties or states over. Even if the course of action is legally the same in both.
You may go to prison for using your gun, and you may go to the morgue if they manage to take it.
You may suffer permanent injury exchanging blows.
You may become a criminal, your word against theirs, when you use non lethal force to injure them while escaping, and when the police arrive they have the injuries and you have different stories.
You may both become criminals charged for the resulting fight you never wanted to be in when police arrive and charge both involved and let the courts try to figure out the truth.
There is no solution that will always work, and it is your life and your choice what course of action to make. Some options are better than others in different ways. Some more likely to help you leave, and some that will look better to a jury later but are less certain to have a safe outcome for you physically.
The ideal scenario is no force needed and leaving.
It may require humiliation, you losing respect and pride, or even result in future problems and requirements that do need more force because you are seen as an easy target in the future by those present. But legally it is the best course of action every time.
If you act like a tough guy to discourage them and they call your 'bluff' you are a mutual combatant instead of a victim. Many witnesses have fuzzy or poor memories, but are more likely to remember the demeanor of those involved. Two tough guys squaring off sends a different message and will be remembered differently than one thug threatening someone that seemed visibly afraid of confrontation and was trying to avoid it.
As for people with stories of pulling their gun and everything working fine, sometimes that works, and sometimes the guy tries to take it and gets shot. Then you get to go to trial and explain why you had to shoot the unarmed guy you pulled a gun on, instead of a pat on the back from the cops. Sometimes the court believes you, and sometimes they think you used excessive force and send you to prison.
We had a great cite of a story of a man attacked by three neighbors in his driveway in Arizona not that long ago. While on the ground and being attacked by multiple people he finally pulled his gun and fired some shots.
He still went through two trials, with the some of the best expert witnesses on his side, and was never found not guilty, just two hung juries with no verdict. So he still almost lost twice and some jury members obviously felt strongly he should go to prison in both trials.
That was a guy being attacked by three people, on the ground, likely to suffer serious injury or death from his unarmed attackers.
What will the jury think about your one?
Some regions of the country and locals also react differently on a general basis to certain courses of action. In one jurisdiction what typically gets you a pat on the back typically results in arrest and charges a few counties or states over. Even if the course of action is legally the same in both.
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ErikO
Member
So far I've been lucky (I guess) and have been able to walk away from every potential engagement. I do not CC yet, not sure if I ever will, but I do carry protection items in case I can't get out of the situation any other way. A set of keys with a folding screwdriver/bottleopener as a keychain fills my hand nicely and would work better for me if I had to go to court than a drawn firearm.
YMMV.
YMMV.
mgkdrgn
Member
Unless you are talking about a room the size of a bowling lane, with you on one end and the exit (and your "problem") at the other, there will be time for one, and only one "action". You can try and talk (de-escalate) all you want, but as soon as anybody moves, it's all over but the beating.
Personally, I didn't get a CCW so that I could let some stranger beat the crap out of me (which is what would happen, I'm no fighter, 56, overweight, high bp, the whole 9 yards). If he won't listen, and moved towards me, I draw. If he doesn't stop, I shoot.
Personally, I didn't get a CCW so that I could let some stranger beat the crap out of me (which is what would happen, I'm no fighter, 56, overweight, high bp, the whole 9 yards). If he won't listen, and moved towards me, I draw. If he doesn't stop, I shoot.
If the guy is intent on fighting you, there's nothing you can say to get out of it. My Krav instructor has drilled us on this situation. Strike first, swim past him and beeline it to the exit before his buddies catch on. You don't want to do anything close up, straights down the middle, kicks to the groin and knees.
A firearm is not a viable option in this case.
A firearm is not a viable option in this case.
A person will use whatever is available...guns, knives, beer bottles, whiskey bottles, cars doors, brooms, mops, phone books, or wiffle ball bats....if its within reach...use it.
Have been there and done that. I just think there are better ways to handle it other than whacking him with your gun. The fact that there were warrants out for the guy may have saved you some grief. Glad it worked out for you okay.
I have read everything ever written by Jeff Cooper.
As have I, we agree on something here.
pepper spray would have been a poor choice given the extremely close quarters of the encounter, not to mention being spun around like he described.
Every hand to hand confrontation is at close quarters. I realize everyone isn't trained to gain distance and use pepper spray. The encounter (if I'm reading it correctly) was in a parking lot, plenty of space to move around. Being spun around offers you an ideal opportunity to knock the assailant flat on his back. Once again not everyone has the training to do so.
Where did anyone say that the gun was the only choice for any of these events? If you guessed nowhere, you'd be correct.
The OP and other posts relate being assaulted by what appears to be an unarmed assailant and only having a gun or your fists.
I don't think the fact that the use of a gun as an improvised impact weapon is less than ideal, and should be avoided if at all possible is lost on anyone here. That's common sense.
I agree but you will see many people on this forum thinking all their SD issues are now solved because they carry a gun. Your comment about use of a gun as an impact weapon not being ideal is the first, other than mine, in this thread. If you are serious about defending yourself you need more than a gun. I'm not saying everyone should get a black belt but you need to look at other things than using a gun.
To keep insisting that others have made bad choices when it's obvious that their actions ultimately resulted in the desired outcome of no harm coming to them is, IMHO a bit pointless.
Its not pointless as it illustrates the need to look to more than a gun for SD. Ridgerunner was lucky it happened where it happened and the guy was an armed, wanted felon. Take that armed and wanted out of the picture and Ridgerunner's actions would be a felony assault in many jurisdictions even with the guy grabbing him and spinning him around. While I agree its great that it worked for Ridgerunner, it illustrates the need to have other options...options that could keep you out of jail.
Have been there and done that. I just think there are better ways to handle it other than whacking him with your gun. The fact that there were warrants out for the guy may have saved you some grief. Glad it worked out for you okay.
I have read everything ever written by Jeff Cooper.
As have I, we agree on something here.
pepper spray would have been a poor choice given the extremely close quarters of the encounter, not to mention being spun around like he described.
Every hand to hand confrontation is at close quarters. I realize everyone isn't trained to gain distance and use pepper spray. The encounter (if I'm reading it correctly) was in a parking lot, plenty of space to move around. Being spun around offers you an ideal opportunity to knock the assailant flat on his back. Once again not everyone has the training to do so.
Where did anyone say that the gun was the only choice for any of these events? If you guessed nowhere, you'd be correct.
The OP and other posts relate being assaulted by what appears to be an unarmed assailant and only having a gun or your fists.
I don't think the fact that the use of a gun as an improvised impact weapon is less than ideal, and should be avoided if at all possible is lost on anyone here. That's common sense.
I agree but you will see many people on this forum thinking all their SD issues are now solved because they carry a gun. Your comment about use of a gun as an impact weapon not being ideal is the first, other than mine, in this thread. If you are serious about defending yourself you need more than a gun. I'm not saying everyone should get a black belt but you need to look at other things than using a gun.
To keep insisting that others have made bad choices when it's obvious that their actions ultimately resulted in the desired outcome of no harm coming to them is, IMHO a bit pointless.
Its not pointless as it illustrates the need to look to more than a gun for SD. Ridgerunner was lucky it happened where it happened and the guy was an armed, wanted felon. Take that armed and wanted out of the picture and Ridgerunner's actions would be a felony assault in many jurisdictions even with the guy grabbing him and spinning him around. While I agree its great that it worked for Ridgerunner, it illustrates the need to have other options...options that could keep you out of jail.
kingpin008
Member
You're consistently missed a very important point: we all agree with you. Why keep stating this, when it's not in debate?:banghead:
Agreed. Which is why I think that deploying OC is a bad choice once you're physically grappling with someone. IMHO, OC should be something used before the assailant is able to close the distance.
Once again, true. In any case, it's tough to gain distance when you're already in the grasp of another human being. Not impossible, but like using OC, the best time to attempt to gain distance is before physical contact occurs. After contact occurs, it's time to react, NOW.
Yeah, if you're not being jerked backwards and spun around by an individual who you didn't know was there until the second he grabbed you. At that point, the goal is to get them OFF of you, then make an effort to use all that wide open space to get away.
That's true. However, the fact remains that nobody is exactly singing the praises of "gun-only" defense either. I think that's the issue here - you seem to be interpreting the fact that the folks who have described encounters where they used their guns to end a situation as advocating that it was the only way, when in reality they're not saying anything of the sort. They're merely relating what worked for them, in that particular case.
That's the thing though - you're assuming, on your own, that they haven't looked into other means of defense. In reality, that could be completely untrue.
Ridgerunner665
Member
About that parking lot...
At 2am a truck stop parking lot is ANYTHING but wide open...if anything, its a maze (and a big one). About 3 feet between trucks that are parked in parking spaces, and for the ones that are crammed in everywhere else...well, they're a mess.
Lots of hiding places...
At 2am a truck stop parking lot is ANYTHING but wide open...if anything, its a maze (and a big one). About 3 feet between trucks that are parked in parking spaces, and for the ones that are crammed in everywhere else...well, they're a mess.
Lots of hiding places...
You're consistently missed a very important point: we all agree with you. Why keep stating this, when it's not in debate?
the following looks like an endorsement to me.
Good guys been pistol whipping bad guys for a long time
You are overlooking the most important part of my argument and that is:
Ridgerunner was lucky it happened where it happened and the guy was an armed, wanted felon. Take that armed and wanted out of the picture and Ridgerunner's actions would be a felony assault in many jurisdictions
That's the thing though - you're assuming, on your own, that they haven't looked into other means of defense. In reality, that could be completely untrue
Back to the OP saying,
I assume such a situation would be a case where you have failed in adequate preparation by not having a less-than-lethal option to use to end the situation, e.g. OC spray, correct?
I have emphasizing the importance of having other alternatives available to you.
You can call it Monday morning QB but an after action is the only way you can see what you did wrong and what you did right and how to not leave yourself open to make the same mistakes.
I'm done.
the following looks like an endorsement to me.
Good guys been pistol whipping bad guys for a long time
You are overlooking the most important part of my argument and that is:
Ridgerunner was lucky it happened where it happened and the guy was an armed, wanted felon. Take that armed and wanted out of the picture and Ridgerunner's actions would be a felony assault in many jurisdictions
That's the thing though - you're assuming, on your own, that they haven't looked into other means of defense. In reality, that could be completely untrue
Back to the OP saying,
I assume such a situation would be a case where you have failed in adequate preparation by not having a less-than-lethal option to use to end the situation, e.g. OC spray, correct?
I have emphasizing the importance of having other alternatives available to you.
You can call it Monday morning QB but an after action is the only way you can see what you did wrong and what you did right and how to not leave yourself open to make the same mistakes.
I'm done.
- Status
