Self-Defense, SHTF, and CCW

[Fire4Effect]

For several months now I have scrolling through countless threads on this, as well as other gun enthusiast websites, and this particular forum, Strategies and Tactics, seems to be the best place to post my experiences. I have been in the military for alot of years now. I was in Desert Shield/ Storm. I went to Somalia and Bosnia. I've been to Afghanistan and 2 trips to Iraq, and undoubtedly will be making a third one later this year. For anyone interested, I am a helicopter door gunner/ Crew Chief. I've been in firefights, bar fights (I'm 6'-3", 220lbs. I'm the big guy in the bar that people full of liquid courage seem to have a point to prove with),and I've been jumped at ATM's and outside convenience stores. I have a CCW and I carry most all of the time. The point I want to make is this. The crap hits the fan in many different ways and when it does what you know and what you have with you is all you've got. The best investment I ever made was learning martial arts. A CCW does you no good if you don't have time to get it out, and many, if not most attacks, are going to be a suprise with little to no warning and will come from your blind side. Even if you manage to see it coming and get your weapon out an attacker will be on you before you can aim. At best you might get a lucky shot in, more than likely you're going to get knocked down and drop your weapon. Not to mention if you happen to be at a bar or establishment where alcohol is being consumed the CCW is illegal anyway regardless of who starts it. Only in two of the cases where I was jumped did I actually get my CCW out and that was after the initial attack that I used my martial arts training to disarm and disable them that I had time to draw my weapon. In the third instance, when a guy tried to rob me outside of a covenience store he ran off, but the police found him hidng in some nearby bushes since I had broken one of his arms and his knee. Even though he had served time for robbery and assault he still filed charges on me and I had to prove self defense (gotta love that one). So I guess the whole point is, it's the initial reaction that you always have to be prepared for whether it's in combat or at the store. I'm sure most LEO's and people who've been through similar situations and vouch, when it hits the fan it hits fast. A CCW will only work if it's already drawn, and if your idea of SHTF is the post-nuclear, apocolyptic, Mad Max world, then all of your preparations will do you no good unless you are already locked in your bunker when the bomb falls, and with the state of the world these days you never know when or where that may be coming from. My suggestion is learn some basic martial arts and self-defense training first, then learn and practice with your weapons, preferably unloaded. Knowledge, skill, and profiency will save you long before a big, fancy gun will. Thanks for letting me have this space.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Very good post Fire4Effect.
I see a lot of people at the gun range who look like they would struggle to get out of an easy chair, much less combat an aggressor at close quarter.
Stressing the need for a weapon to be part of a total self defens preparedness package is something that goes unsaid quite a bit.
I work out 4 days a week in a gym or outdoors with a routine that isn't just bench pressing and squats and such. I include flexibility exercises drawn from Yoga and Pilates, and I include specific exercises that increase my ability to use explosive strength like plyometrics in addition to hiking and windsprints. In addition to that, I practice Aikido since it works well for me.
I see a handgun as part of a box full of tools that I can use to defend myself. And, I work to make sure that box stays full.
As they say, "Sweat saves blood".

 

[hurrakane212]

Layered defense

Layered defense my friends. Unless you are physically disabled I believe that it is irresponsible to limit your self-defense to lethal force. Wim Demeere once asked me why I had a machete next to my bed rather than a baseball bat or some other less leathal option. While the machete should be close if I need it, it needs to be a 2nd option. It is more likely that somone I don't want to maim/kill will startle me in the middle of the night than a robber.
There is a scale of force and the most lethal is needed least often. If a person doesn't train in a martial art/self defence method, practice awareness and aviodance, and have a less lethal option, then they have no business having a gun. Because then, (as the gun grabbers like to chant) if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Make sure you have other tools.~Nathan

 

[Double Naught Spy]

{mental note: stay away from Fire4Effect. He apparently can handle all sorts of trouble, a good thing, but apparently attracts it like a magnet}

I've been jumped at ATM's and outside convenience stores.

I have known several folks who have been incidents at ATMs, usually robbery or attempted robbery, but none who have had more than one ATM incident. After the first time, their level of situational awareness and precautions have skyrocketed when conducting business at or around ATMs.

A CCW does you no good if you don't have time to get it out, and many, if not most attacks, are going to be a suprise with little to no warning and will come from your blind side. Even if you manage to see it coming and get your weapon out an attacker will be on you before you can aim. At best you might get a lucky shot in, more than likely you're going to get knocked down and drop your weapon. Not to mention if you happen to be at a bar or establishment where alcohol is being consumed the CCW is illegal anyway regardless of who starts it.

Right a CCW may do you no good if you don't see the attack coming, that is why situational awareness is critical, but not just for CCW, but in general.

If you draw and the attacker is closing ground, being on you before you can aim, then you should not need to aim and your shot should not be lucky to get in. At such close quarters, contact shots or near contact shots don't require aiming, at least not in the traditional manner using sights.

You are going to get knocked down and drop your gun? Not only is situational awareness important, but so too are gun retention skills.

It has always struck me as planning and bad tactics for armed folks (legal CCW) to go illegally go into bars and dull their senses by drinking. Not only are they in the bars illegally (depending on state laws), but their ability to deal with threats is diminished.

There is nothing wrong with martial arts. They have their place. They are just another self defense tool. While it may be tough to draw in a given situation where martial arts might be beneficial (very close quarters), martial arts are generally of little use when your opponent is beyond your contact range (assuming we are talking about empty hand fighting because if you can get out your various martial arts gizmos, then you can get out a gun).

All that aside, Fire4 Effect's comments and those of others have made a critical passive point that seems lost on many CCW people. Being unarmed should never mean you are defenseless. All too often people post how defenseless they felt when they could not take their gun into a school, bar, courtroom, etc. Many of those same folks have posted on how prepared they are for SHTF situations, how their shooting skills have developed, etc. If being disarmed in a public situation makes you feel defenseless, then your defenses were never that good in the first place.

Even worse, said defenseless people are then going to be poor at improvisational fighting. People often fail to realize just what weapons they have available via common items they see every day. Suzanna Hupp's account of the Killeen Luby's incident is classic. Aside from one or two folks who attempted to rush the gunman, the rest pretty much just tried to hide or run away. The gunman was able to walk around and shoot folks at close range.

Were the folks in Luby's defenseless? No hardly, but most didn't know it. There were any number of objects available for use as thrown projectiles and others a blunt tools. Had somebody the coolness of mind to empty a salt shaker into his/her hand, it would have been possible to partially blind the guy with the salt. Pepper too would have a negative impact (optic and respiratory), but wasn't used either.

The point is, if you think you are defenseless, then you are because you aren't likely to recognize the resources available to you that could be used in your defense.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

excellent post double-naught spy.

Lots of people never consider these variables in their program for personal defense. Good job bringing these points to light.

 

[DunedinDragon]

As a martial arts student, teacher and competitor I firmly believe in the usefulness of such things. However, the problem is that those techniques are more problematic than useful until you've achieved a certain level of expertise with them, which can take several years and thousands of repetitions.

A "workshop" on techniques is only going to cause more problems with an attacker than it will resolve. If someone wants to increase their flexibility for response using these techniques, they need to recognize the commitment it will take or else go with OC spray or other more easily learned approaches.

 

[defender48]

Krav Maga

"Krav Maga" is an Israeli unique hand-to-hand "martial arts" combat method for disarming assailants. It was developed by incorporating an assortment of martial arts techniques and Special Forces methods to create a practical "down to business" approach.

"Krav Maga" training process is specifically designed to get quick results in a short training period.

This is not a sport. "krav Maga" is a concealed weapon.

Highly recommended

 

[chorlton]

All great advice. Its just as important to be able to watch for a "situation" arising, know places to avoid (I dont even use public ATMs) and be confident with basic tried and trusted techniques in unarmed combat as it is to carry a gun and know it inside out. Everything should be practised so well that it becomes instinctive, because you won't have time to think.

 

[Mannlicher]

It almost seems sometimes, that conflict follows some folks like a storm cloud. I, on the other hand, really try to avoid it. I don't frequent bars, I have very good situational awarness skills, and I mind my own business.
I am too old to be heavy into some of the unarmed combat skills you young guys excell at. That does not mean by any stretch, that I am going to be someone's victim though.

 

[Fire4Effect]

Yes it seems trouble seems to follow me but since I work from 4:00pm- 2:00am, most of my shopping gets done after work at the few 24hr stores there are around. Also I got to thinking about it and 4 out of the 6 outside atm's are well-lit, but obscured from the main road and 2 of those are less than 50 yards from the 24hour convenience stores. Not to mention, being a military town, everybody knows when paydays are and that's when most muggings and robberies seem to happen.

 

[gunsmith]

F4E

1st I want to thank you for serving your country, 2nd I want to apologize and say thank you for taking it easy on me when I was still drinking.
You see, I was really drunk and I passed out in a strip club.
Some one relieved me of my 400$ and I was escorted out
by the bouncer &
I was feeling very grouchy when 4 navy guys
asked me "what was it like in the strip club"
All I said was "why should you care, you're gay"
& hostillities ensued...

Now that I have over ten years of sobriety
I have learned not to be so grouchy
when large service men are asking
me simple questions.