Fist fight, blocked exit, CC

[RTR_RTR]

Hi all,

Just a hypothetical for you, no specific incident.

Situation - You're concealed carrying. You get in a confrontation with another person (for the sake of it, we'll assume you had no role in escalating the situation). This person (even match or less to you physically, i.e. no disparity of force) is clearly itching to get in a fight. He is between you and the exit.

Action - What do you do?

Is it legal to attempt to verbally de-escalate the situation by stating that you don't wish to fight, and you're armed? If he initiates the fight at that point, would you be looking at a possibly justified shooting?

If he initiates the fight before you have the opportunity to try to do anything to de-escalate, I see your legal options as "push through him and try to get to the door" or "fight."

In addition to these questions, I assume such a situation would be a case where you have failed in adequate preparation by not having a less-than-lethal option to use to end the situation, e.g. OC spray, correct?

Thanks in advance for your input

Edit: It is presumptuous to assume what starts a fight will remain a fistfight on the aggressor's end, but for the sake of the discussion, he does not produce or indicate a weapon at any point.

 

[heeler]

I have been in a very close situation just like what you describe EXCEPT this was pre concealed carry in Texas and I was at that time 32 years old instead of near 60 like today.
I had to slug my way through and came out on top but not without damage.
I would never tell them I was armed today.
If the guy is crazy enough to want to fight a complete stranger "just because" I certainly am not going to tell the guy I am armed,less you get one of these idiots screaming at you to "just shoot me then".
As I am getting older I am thinking more and more of perhaps carrying some sort of spray repellent.
But if I was carrying and the guy was aggressive and blocking my path and then became violent and attacking me I certainly would not let him beat me to the floor if I could help it.

 

[conw]

I do carry oc spray but if I didn't have it i'd blow by him with a centerline elbow, a technique I learned in Southnarc's armed movement in structures course (for what it's worth it also works with a gun drawn). If there wasn't enough room for that tactic i'd probably opt for a pre emptive eye flick or neck cradle blow from the fence position, followed by a knee or elbow if necessary. There is a nice writeup on these techniques at www.urbancombatives.com/sn.htm.

Imo this would not be a justified shooting short of something like a fire in the building.

 

[kingpin008]

I wouldn't announce that I was armed, for no other reason than the less the attacker knows what's on you, the better. If a fist-fight is inevitable, and he knows you're armed, what's to stop him from trying to get control of it and use it on you in the scuffle?

Best to bet, IMHO is to break out the master-class verbal judo in order to avoid the fight, and if all that fails, fight your way to the door and get away ASAP. If the situation escalates further, you may have no choice but to reveal that you're armed, but keep it quiet if at all possible.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

If somebody wants to fight, and has the exit blocked...there is nothing you can do except give him what he wants, and do it in good ole fashioned Jeff Cooper style (decisive, aggressive, overwhelming....and most of all before he realizes its coming).

If he produces no gun, neither will I....

When "the ball is opened"-when it becomes evident
that you are faced with violent physical assault-your life
depends upon your selecting a correct course of action and
carrying it through without hesitation or deviation. There
can be no shilly-shallying. There is not time. To ponder is
quite possibly to perish. And it is important to remember
that the specific course you decide upon is, within certain
parameters, less important than the vigor with which you
execute it. The difficulty is that the proper course of action,
when under attack, is usually to counterattack. This runs
contrary to our normally civilized behavior, and such a decision
is rather hard for even an ordinarily decisive person
to reach.

In defense we do not initiate violence. We must grant
our attacker the vast advantage of striking the first blow, or
at least attempting to do so. But thereafter we may return
the attention with what should optimally be overwhelming
violence. "The best defense is a good offense." This is true,
and while we cannot apply it strictly to personal defensive
conduct, we can propose a corollary: "The best personal
defense is an explosive counterattack."

Speed is the absolute essence of any form of combat,
from a fencing match to the Six-Day War. (Absence of
speed is what history will probably decide caused us to lose
in Vietnam.) Napoleon said, "I may lose a battle but I will
never lose a minute." Personal defense speeds this up. We
must say, "I may lose this fight, but I will not lose this
second!" Apparently overwhelming strength is of no importance
if it is not brought to bear before it is preempted.
In our Old West it was said, "Do unto others as they would
do unto you, but do it first." Amen.

The perfect fight is one that is over before the loser
really understands what is going on. The perfect defense is
a counterattack that succeeds before the assailant discovers
that he has bitten off more than he can chew.
Therefore, if you are attacked, retaliate instantly. Be
sudden. Be quick. Speed is your salvation.

If you must use your hands, use them with all the
strength you possess. Tapping your assailant half-heartedly,
for fear of hurting him, will indeed make him mad, and
since he has already shown that he is willing to kill you, he
may try even harder now that you have struck him a painful
though indecisive blow. If you choose to strike, by all
means strike hard.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Is it legal to attempt to verbally de-escalate the situation

Legal? I think of it as mandatory.

Offer to buy him a drink, and drop the $20 on the floor away from the exit; he has to choose: free drinks, or stand there blocking you.

If he'd rather fight, well, everyone saw you try to get out of there without a fight.

Rory Miller talks about the Four Truths of violence:

Assaults happen closer, faster, more suddenly, and with more power than most people believe.

 

[JoeSlomo]

Situation.....

Intent, ability, immediacy are the 3 criteria I use to select a defensive course of action involving the use of force / deadly force.

Intent? Check...

In your example, it is reasonable to believe that the individual has intent to do great bodily harm that could lead to death.
- hostile and/or aggressive behavior, verbal threats of violence
- physically positioning himself in a manner that blocks your retreat

Ability? Check...

It is reasonable to believe that the individual has the ability to carry out his violent intent.
- fit, has the ability to use hand and fist to break bone / skull, possibly knock you into unconsciousness where you would be completely defenseless.
- May have a hidden tool / weapon he could use against you.

Immediacy? Nope. Not yet at least...

Because the individual has not yet physically attacked you, and you still have some space and time available, I don't believe there is an immediate need to use deadly force to stop the attack. While I would indeed draw a firearm to stop what I perceived to be an imminent attack, I would do so without firing, and with the intent to stop the threat using the THREAT of deadly force, and NOT deadly force itself.
Should the criminal ignore my threat and close the distance to press his attack, then the need for deadly force would become immediate, and I would use deadly force to stop his attack.

State laws vary. I have no duty to retreat, however, some states place that requirement on their citizens.

even match or less to you physically, i.e. no disparity of force

No APPARENT disparity of force. How do you know the dude isn't a semi-pro boxer or MMA fighter? How do you know he doesn't have a hidden weapon? You don't.

de-escalate the situation by stating that you don't wish to fight, and you're armed?

I would NEVER tell anybody that I was armed. If the situation develops to the point where you feel the need to threaten the use of deadly force to stop an imminent attack, then you need to DRAW your firearm and not TALK about drawing your firearm. Giving a criminal early warning is not in your best interest, and the possible deterrent effect you are trying to achieve is far more effective and easily achieved by displaying the arm, not "threatening" to display the arm.

Research your local laws and what constitutes the justifiable use of force / deadly force, as they differ from state to state.

 

[lemaymiami]

Carrying a firearm or other weapon can be a severe handicap if you faced unarmed opposition -- if you allow that to happen. Do everything in your power to de-escalate the situation, take no offense at whatever words come your way, keep a low profile as you attempt to avoid trouble. Under no circumstances reveal that you are armed unless you're confronted with a weapon...

If trouble insists... your opponent should have a look of surprise on his/her face since you're going to transition from no action to full assault mode with no warning whatsoever. There's just no other way to go about it. The problem that most of us face is our built in reluctance to take that step. As someone has already said it should be over before your opponent even realizes he or she has a problem..... and no weapon will have been involved, if at all possible.

 

[RTR_RTR]

Thank you all for your input!

Great place to learn stuff

Legal? I think of it as mandatory.

This was a slight perversion of what I was saying, but as to what you are saying, message still received.

 

[W.E.G.]

You get to shoot him when he tries to disarm you.

 

[Mike1234567]

I've been there several times within the last several months. My neighbor across the street gets stinking drunk and has threatened me with violence several times. I guess there's something about me that just pi$$es him off... I don't know. The last time he did this his girlfriend was there and intervened then told him the next day, after he was sober, that he was completely out of line. He then apologized but he'll just get drunk again...

I can't fight anymore due to neurological and back problems. If I'm hurt again I might lose my ability to walk. He does this on my property but is apparently unarmed each time. I'm at a loss as to what to do. I did call 911 the last time he threatened me but I don't know how much good that will do in court if I shoot an unarmed man no matter how drunk he is.

 

[Manco]

In my view, lethal force is reserved for when my life (and/or somebody else I'm protecting) is in immediate jeopardy, usually due to the assailant being armed or a disparity of force. Once that point is reached, then the lead will start flying fast and generally without warning, but short of those worst-case conditions, there are almost always better alternatives to homicide.

In this hypothetical scenario, I would do anything I could to de-escalate because whatever the guy's problem might be, it's not worth fighting or killing over. If I have to look like a wuss in front of everybody, then so be it. Personally, I would not escalate at this point by telling the guy that I'm armed because we're not yet fighting, and I wouldn't want him to know anyway.

If the guy attacks me unarmed (apparently) and I don't think that I can avoid fighting in any other way, then I'd use pepper spray on him, which I'd already have in my hand ahead of time. If that doesn't work and he gets close enough to possibly disarm me, then I'd have to draw my gun and threaten him verbally. And if that doesn't work (there may not be time), then I may well have to shoot him. That's the one major drawback of carrying a gun--you can't allow yourself to get into a fistfight that may result in somebody taking away your gun and using it on you, so you may have to shoot the guy and fight for your freedom in court afterward, trying to explain to a jury why you shot an unarmed person. It can be justified, but it's a lot easier to avoid having to shoot somebody in the first place.

On the other hand, if the guy is waiting for me to make the next move--presumably because I want to leave and he's blocking me--then I'd call the police and tell them that I'm being illegally detained. In most cases, that should settle matters peacefully. And if the guy really wants to fight no matter what, then at least I would have the law on my side instead of questioning whether I'm the criminal.

 

[Mike1234567]

In my view, lethal force is reserved for when my life (and/or somebody else I'm protecting) is in immediate jeopardy, usually due to the assailant being armed or a disparity of force. Once that point is reached, then the lead will start flying fast and generally without warning, but short of those worst-case conditions, there are almost always better alternatives to homicide.

In this hypothetical scenario, I would do anything I could to de-escalate because whatever the guy's problem might be, it's not worth fighting or killing over. If I have to look like a wuss in front of everybody, then so be it. Personally, I would not escalate at this point by telling the guy that I'm armed because we're not yet fighting, and I wouldn't want him to know anyway.

If the guy attacks me unarmed and I don't think that I can avoid fighting in any other way, then I'll use pepper spray on him, which I'd already have in my hand ahead of time. If that doesn't work and he gets close enough to possibly disarm me, then I'd have to draw my gun and threaten him verbally. And if that doesn't work (there may not be time), then I may well have to shoot him. That's the one major drawback of carrying a gun--you can't allow yourself to get into a fistfight that may result in somebody taking away your gun and using it on you, so you may have to shoot the guy and fight for your freedom in court afterward, trying to explain to a jury why you shot an unarmed person. It can be justified, but it's a lot easier to avoid having to shoot somebody in the first place.

On the other hand, if the guy is waiting for me to make the next move--presumably because I want to leave and he's blocking me--then I'd call the police and tell them that I'm being illegally detained. In most cases, that should settle matters peacefully. And if the guy really wants to fight no matter what, then at least I should have the law on my side instead of questioning whether I'm the criminal.

The guy I'm talking about is completely insane when he's drunk. In my case I can't afford to be hurt again unless I want to risk being in a wheelchair the rest of my life and he doesn't care about that. Some guys are just completely nuts.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I've been there several times within the last several months. My neighbor across the street gets stinking drunk and has threatened me with violence several times. I guess there's something about me that just pi$$es him off... I don't know. The last time he did this his girlfriend was there and intervened then told him the next day, after he was sober, that he was completely out of line. He then apologized but he'll just get drunk again...

I can't fight anymore due to neurological and back problems. If I'm hurt again I might lose my ability to walk. He does this on my property but is apparently unarmed each time. I'm at a loss as to what to do. I did call 911 the last time he threatened me but I don't know how much good that will do in court if I shoot an unarmed man no matter how drunk he is.

Your medical condtion is your open door to leathal force since a single blow can cripple you for life. IMO

 

[Mike1234567]

Your medical condtion is your open door to leathal force since a single blow can cripple you for life. IMO

Maybe but one can never know how an over-zealous gun-hating DA might react. So far I've been lucky enough to avoid a fight plus I'm moving into the quiet country in the next few days... as soon as my contractor has the place repaired well enough that I can move in.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Great to hear you getting to move. Prayers your nutt next door does you no harm until then.

Most DA I know in the South would side with you in a New York minute. But elsewhere your right it is roll of the dice.

 

[Manco]

The guy I'm talking about is completely insane when he's drunk. In my case I can't afford to be hurt again unless I want to risk being in a wheelchair the rest of my life and he doesn't care about that. Some guys are just completely nuts.

That's unfortunate, and I can definitely sympathize because there's a wacko out there who gets out of control when he takes certain drugs (paranoid delusions), and he's threatened me before (as well as spoken about hiring hit men). In your case, you should do whatever you need to do in order to defend your life and your quality of life should he present an immediate danger to you with nobody else to intervene next time. If you're prosecuted, then your claim would be self-defense due to a disparity of force. I was just saying that in general one should avoid escalation and shooting somebody if at all possible, but sometimes it's not possible, which is why we choose to arm ourselves.

Just remember that his threats are not a justification--basically, he has to attack you before you can defend yourself, which is what I meant by "immediate" danger or jeopardy (I'm sure that you know this, but I have to say it for the sake of completeness--a CYA moment, if you will ). I'm afraid that there is not much we can do about people making threats, and truth be told, we could be attacked and killed by a random stranger at any time anyway, so we simply have to be ready to defend ourselves.

Maybe but one can never know how an over-zealous gun-hating DA might react.

It's still up to a jury to decide, and like the old adage goes, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

So far I've been lucky enough to avoid a fight plus I'm moving into the quiet country in the next few days... as soon as my contractor has the place repaired well enough that I can move in.

Of course, it's even better to avoid being judged by 12 to begin with. I hope the timing works out for you--hang in there!

 

[Bullet]

OP you might check this out -

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/carry-defensive-scenarios/119041-do-you-have-fight.html

 

[Flfiremedic]

The way I'm reading the thread, it sort of took a turn into actual lethal force areanas, but there was a lot of great advice, distraction, avoidance, leaving etc. I'm no saint by any means, but firmly believe if you put on a gun you take off your ego...who cares if you leave/run and look like a punk...responsible armed individulals DO NOT RESORT to that type confrontation. Go home put the gun away, come back and tell him to step outside if your fragile ego requires it, but don't take a gun to a fist fight...
One other thought on it...what type retention system does your concealed weapon have? It would really suck if it fell out while you were rolling around like an idiot.

Mike,
I'm not directing this at you...I feel for you in your situation...it hits that ugly gray area we all hate, your situation is one of those with hard decisions and having to do what you have to do...just document document document...restraining orders etc...start building your case ahead of time...I hate hearing that you are stuck in such a lousy ongoing situation

 

[lemaymiami]

Mike... since I'm a retired cop I read your posts and came to the conclusion that like most decent folks you're reluctant to take action against your neighbor even though you have cause to worry about him when he's been drinking (and rightly so...). The very next time that guy is drunk in public don't wait for him to act up. Call your local cops before things get out of hand. You won't have to exaggerate, just tell them that he's drunk in public and usually tries to pick fights. They'll send out two officers and they'll give him a chance to do the right thing (go home without getting arrested) or go to jail. You won't have to be involved and I'd call every time the guy gets out of line.

Most don't want to go this route but I can't tell you how many times me or my officers got there too late when the offender was a known problem that everyone in the neighborhood had been putting up with... Most cops will bend over backward when dealing with belligerent drunks but when they cross the line, the best thing that can happen is a night in the can, period.

 

[Mike1234567]

Thanks for all the advice, folks. I guess I hijacked this thread. I apologize for that.

As I stated earlier I called the police the last time it happened and told them he's done this several times. So at least it's on record the one time. I'll report him again if I see him wasted like that. However, he's usually drunk on his own property but only has to walk across the street to cause trouble. I hope to be permanently out of this neighborhood Monday or Tuesday.

 

[RTR_RTR]

OP you might check this out -

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...ave-fight.html

Perfect, thanks!

Thanks for all the advice, folks. I guess I hijacked this thread. I apologize for that.

Not at all. Hypothetical transforms into real life advice, all the better.

 

[Owen Sparks]

You can't afford to lose a bare handed assault while armed. If the attacker gets the better of you he will probably take your weapon and may kill you or others with it. You are responsible for the securing that weapon and must do what it takes to keep it out of the criminal’s hands. An assault is not a sporting event. You did not agree to participate and are under no moral obligation to fight fair. Your objective is to disable the bad guy as quickly as possible and get away. The last thing you want while armed is to be on the ground wrestling with an opponent of unknown ability or motivation.

Unless you are highly trained you have no business engaging in hand to hand combat with a stranger no matter what he “looks like”. You have no way to know his skill level, his state of sanity, what weapon he may possess (he may have a razor in his shoe) or if he has friends nearby. Unless you really know how to throw a sucker punch you need to draw your pistol and tell him that you do not want to fight and that you are going to leave. If he backs off fine, if he continues to advance you had to shoot to keep him from grabbing your pistol. Anyone who would continue an unarmed advance towards a drawn pistol is seriously dangerous.

 

[GRIZ22]

Offer to buy him a drink, and drop the $20 on the floor away from the exit; he has to choose: free drinks, or stand there blocking you.

I wouldn't suggest do this. It can be construed by your assailant as an insult..that you can buy off his honor (or whatever he feels he has to fight for).

Unless you are highly trained you have no business engaging in hand to hand combat with a stranger no matter what he “looks like”. You have no way to know his skill level, his state of sanity, what weapon he may possess (he may have a razor in his shoe) or if he has friends nearby.

Okay I agree with all this.

Unless you really know how to throw a sucker punch you need to draw your pistol and tell him that you do not want to fight and that you are going to leave. If he backs off fine, if he continues to advance you had to shoot to keep him from grabbing your pistol.

I strongly disagree here. In most jurisdictions this would make you the bad guy even those with favorable Castle Doctrine laws. You will never convince a jury to justify shooting someone because you thought he may have a razor or he may have a black belt.

Anyone who would continue an unarmed advance towards a drawn pistol is seriously dangerous

Or drunk or crazy but this isn't going to hold much water in your defense. Numerous times I have seen smaller guys try to prove how big they were and pick a fight with a much bigger guy with the expected result. Using your logic, the police should be authorized to shoot anyone that refuses to come along peacably. There are many jerks that go after a LEO even though they know he has a gun, baton, and pepper spray and many times a partner with the same alongside him.

 

[Mike1234567]

Seriously inebriated people, especially those with emotional disorders, may indeed advance knowing their intended target is armed. My crazy neighbor... knows I carry at all times.