CCW can limit options

[JGReed]

This ties into some of the “unarmed assailant” threads. I live about six miles down a dirt road in a very rural area. No cell phone service at all. On my way to the dump one morning I passed a car on the side of the road with a couple standing beside the car, clearly having some sort of argument. I continued driving and saw through my rear view mirror that the woman was now seated in the car and the man was leaning in and flailing his arms at her. Thinking he was hitting her I turned around and drove back.

Although I have a CCW I don’t generally carry (I always did in Denver, but Maine is pretty quiet). I do have a revolver in a shoulder holster in my console so I tucked the revolver in my belt, grabbed my pepperspray and went to make sure she was alright. The woman was crying and I asked if she was OK. The man responded that they were fine and told me to take off. I said I wasn’t asking him, and repeated the question. He got more belligerent and told me to mind my own business. I ignored him and asked if he had hit her and she responded no. (there were papers scattered on the ground, which may have been what the flailing was about). At that point he started advancing toward me and told me to mind my own business before he “did something he didn’t want to do.” I suddenly found myself in a VERY uncomfortable situation. I was absolutely terrified…not of him but of the revolver I had on my hip. The guy was two inches shorter and probably ten pounds lighter than me and in lousy shape. He was clearly all mouth and no moves. I train regularly in MMA and have absolutely no doubt I could have destroyed him. In fact I’d have been more than willing to roll around with him if I wasn’t armed. (YMMV…MMA is for people who don’t mind throwing punches.) But with that revolver in my belt there was no way I could let him contact me. It wasn’t even in a holster and would almost certainly have come loose. If he tried to mix it up I would have no choice but to draw on him.

Thank God for pepper spray! I pointed it at him with my left hand from about four feet away and told him he’d suck down the whole can if he didn’t stop. Fortunately he believed me and backed up. Anyway the rest was just a bit of him challenging me to put down the pepper spray and fight and me making sure the girl was alright. She thanked me for stopping but said he hadn’t hit her and she didn’t need a ride or the police so I retreated and left.

All in all it was a very sobering experience. The kid wasn’t a serious assailant, just an unarmed punk with a bad temper. I REALLY didn’t want to escalate things by drawing a gun, but if I had not had the pepperspray the kid would definitely have tried to fight and I would have had no choice. I couldn't retreat until I was satisfied he wasn't hurting her, so my options would have been very limited. It would have resulted in a police report in the best case and a shooting in the worst. Far more drama than was necessary for the situation.

I’ve always thought it’s a good idea to have a less-lethal option when carrying but this confirmed it. I will never carry a handgun without pepperspray from now on. Has anyone else had a similar experience where having a ccw actually felt like more of a handicap than a help?

 

[DRMMR02]

You should also consider always having a good holster for your weapon. That way you have the extra security if something does happen. And carrying gangsta style is just dangerous.

I think the pepper spray is a good idea. Different levels of force is the way to go. Like your situation, not every encounter is going to be against a well-armed BG with a death wish. The ability and peace of mind to use lethal force is necessary, but that doesn't mean every situation will call for that. I think you did the right thing. You showed just the right amount of force to alleviate the situation, but kept the ability to respond with greater force if it excalated.

A good weapon/holster, some OC, and even some form of basic martial arts I think is paramount to responding with the right level of force for different situations.

 

[DesertShooter]

First of all, it sounds like you did the right thing by being a "Good Samaritan". The young lady could have been in peril, and you used good judgement by not taking the word of the young man.

A few things popped into my mind. First of all, "weapons retention". I was a LEO for 31 years, and was involved in numerous altercations while armed. Besides having the mind set to "win" the altercation, the training that I went through stressed weapons retention. Good equipment is a necessity, but so is keeping your "carry" side away from the suspect. I also utilized my limbs (elbows and forearms) to retain my firearm.

Secondly, since the young man was "combative", at least verbally, had he attacked you physically, you would have been within your rights to put a stop to the altercation as quickly as possible. A simple foot sweep probably would have sent him to the ground, and you would have been able to control him fairly easy. The way I always looked at altercations....the quicker they're over, the fewer the injuries. No need to roll around in the dirt for several minutes....just put a quick end to it without getting yourself dirty!

The OC "pepper spray" was a good idea, but it can also "back-spray" on you, especially at very close distances. If you become "compromised" while you're armed, you may be in trouble!

One thing that you wrote sort of bothered me. You stated that you "ignored" the young man while trying to get a response from the young lady. Well, there is NOTHING wrong with "verbalization" during a confrontation! I've "talked" more bad guys into jail than I've had to fight! If there is a "next time", have it tucked into your thoughts about "negotiating" with a combative person. By "ignoring" them, it may be perceived as disrespect, and no one wants that. Your post was very articulate, so I'll bet that your verbal skills are just as good....just not thought of as a "weapon".

Tuck this away in your memory banks, too. Even if a husband/boyfriend may be abusive toward their wife/girlfriend, a "third party" coming into the fray doesn't mean that they will be a "Knight in shining armor" to the female. If you end up fighting the male, the female MAY come to his aid! With you being the "third party", you're suddenly thrust into fighting against BOTH of them! I learned that the hard way! Love is strange!

 

[Cousin Mike]

Even if a husband/boyfriend may be abusive toward their wife/girlfriend, a "third party" coming into the fray doesn't mean that they will be a "Knight in shining armor" to the female. If you end up fighting the male, the female MAY come to his aid! With you being the "third party", you're suddenly thrust into fighting against BOTH of them! I learned that the hard way! Love is strange!

Amen. My uncle served our police force for over 20 years. His advice?

NEVER get in the middle of a domestic dispute. You're more likely to be assaulted by the female than the male.

Everything I read in that story is exactly why I stay out of relationship disputes. There's no telling who the good or bad guy is, just the typical view that if a female is crying the man must've done something terribly wrong. I don't buy it. Living with a woman for the past 5 years, I've learned that women often get emotional and cry about things most men can't even understand. Couples argue... sometimes it's ugly. It's still none of your business.

IMHO, it seems like your good samaritanism invited conflict where there wasn't any need for it. I can honestly say that if I'm ever in an argument with my girlfriend, and some do-gooder comes around threatening me, someone's getting hurt. And seeing as how I carry my gun everywhere, and have also studied martial arts for the past 20 years or so, well...

That could get to be pretty ugly. Now mix up the fact that my girlfriend carries also, and voila! You now have a do-gooder shot and killed for wanting to be a knight in shining armor, by the very woman he was trying to "protect."

Bad news all around... I wouldn't touch that situation.

Now if someone is being BEATEN, well.... that's another story. But this "Are you alright ma'am?" stuff can get you killed... And you very well may be the one in the wrong when everything is said and done. Just my opinion, but I take carrying very seriously. This thing is carried to protect me and mine, not solve other people's disputes. YMMV.

As for your holster question, I use a Bianchi Snaplok OWB retention holster. Very quick and easy to draw with a little practice, and no chance of the gun coming unholstered on it's own. The lock engages the trigger guard, so nobody is getting that gun out of your holster unless they've had a good long time to figure out the way it works. It's the one holster I own where I feel secure that no one could ever take my gun away from me while I'm still conscious and functioning.

Bellyband holsters also work very well for me, and so far it's the only thing I've found that can keep a full-sized gun perfectly concealed in a pair of sweatpants or gym shorts. For retention and ease of draw/re-holstering, the Snaplok is the best thing I've tried yet. For concealment in clothes that don't usually offer good concealment, the bellyband is king.

 

[mec]

It does limit options. You can't allow somebody to get hold of your gun which could lead to shooting an unarmed attacker. Your actions as described are beyond criticism. You handled it very well. Even so, realizing my own limitations, I would be disinclned to intevien in a male /female dispute if it was evident that they were a couple before the flailing, and cussing began. The limitations are that I have a real hard time distinguishing that behavior from routine street monster foreplay.

 

[LoveMyCountry]

Cousin Mike,

You might want to read the post again.

I continued driving and saw through my rear view mirror that the woman was now seated in the car and the man was leaning in and flailing his arms at her. Thinking he was hitting her I turned around and drove back.

If you thought the man was hitting the woman, would you take his word that everything was fine and just leave?

You wrote:

IMHO, it seems like your good samaritanism invited conflict where there wasn't any need for it. I can honestly say that if I'm ever in an argument with my girlfriend, and some do-gooder comes around threatening me, someone's getting hurt. And seeing as how I carry my gun everywhere, and have also studied martial arts for the past 20 years or so, well...

That could get to be pretty ugly. Now mix up the fact that my girlfriend carries also, and voila! You now have a do-gooder shot and killed for wanting to be a knight in shining armor, by the very woman he was trying to "protect."

Since when is someone asking if you are okay a reason to kill them?

LoveMyCountry

 

[Cousin Mike]

LoveMyCountry:

Point taken, somewhat. I understand what you're saying, and I don't mean to criticize anyone, just offer some food for thought. I would not get involved in a situation like that unless I was SURE a woman was being beaten. I'm not going to pull over my car and confront a man because I think I saw someone get smacked. If anything I'd call the police.

I also didn't say I'd kill him for asking what was wrong... I said that situations like that lend themselves to the possibility of becoming violent VERY quickly - which is why I stay away from them... or at least that was my point.

If me and my girlfriend were the couple in question, and some tough guy came around threatening me with mace and trying to talk to my girlfriend, that would NOT end up being a good situation by any means. Either we'd fight, probably viciously, and he said himself that if the man tried to fight him, he would have "been forced" to pull his gun... Or, guns would be drawn.

Now the SHTF...

My girlfriend has her CHL, and so do I... I don't think she'd take too kindly to someone pulling a gun on me. See what I mean now? It's not that I think he didn't MEAN well, I'm sure he did... But IMHO, those couple disputes are not a good thing to get involved in. Risk vs. reward, you know?

 

[JGReed]

DesertShooter – Y’know you’re right…I never even tried to be conciliatory with the male. Maybe because I didn’t like his looks or that I was subconsciously expecting trouble, but I never even tried to win him over or negotiate. It might have gone different if, instead of bypassing him completely, I’d started out with “Hey Buddy, I’m not trying to get involved in your personal life. It looked to me like you were hitting her and I just want to make sure the lady is alright. You’d want someone to help her out if she was in trouble wouldn’t you? As long as she says she’s alright I’m outta here…none of my business what you’re arguing about.” I really WASN'T interested in what he had to say so there's nothing wrong with only addressing her, but it would have been better to at least try to make things friendly. Seems painfully obvious now but I honestly never even thought about it.

Cousin Mike – I don’t get involved in lovers’ quarrels either. I’ve seen enough hysterical women to know that there’s no telling what’s really going on. Like I said though, I thought he was hitting her and that’s something I won’t ignore. And not to be argumentative but you keep changing up the scenario. You stated if "some tough guy came around threatening me with mace and trying to talk to my girlfriend, that would NOT end up being a good situation by any means." First of all I didn’t threaten him with the mace until he wanted to fight. Secondly if you’re going to fight every guy who tries to talk to your girlfriend…well…good luck with that. Besides if she is independent enough to carry a gun I’d think she’s independent enough to answer a question without your help. (Unless for some reason you wouldn't want her to answer that question...)

Anyway as for the holster, when I carry it’s my Colt Officer’s Model in an IWB holster. The MountainLite in the shoulder holster is my hiking/fishing rig, and I just leave it in the truck all the time. I couldn’t put it on at the time without them seeing what I was doing and I didn’t want to scare them. Turns out that caused a whole different set of potential problems.

 

[jondar]

Quote Cousin Mike posted "Now if someons is being beate, well that's another story."

Normally true and I would have had the same reaction as the original poster. However; a few years ago my wife's cousin was driving to work at about seven in the morning. As he drove thru an intersection not far from downtown he saw a woman on her back on the sidewalk with a man sitting on her beating her in the face. Blood flying. The cousin was a man in his 30's, good shape, lots of exercise daily. He jumped from his car, ran over put a headlock on the assailant and wrestled him backward to the sidewalk. The woman jumped up screaming "don't you hurt my husband", and she and the husband soon had my wife's cousin down on the sidewalk, and severely beaten. Fortunately, two women who lived in the house nearby had already called the police and two large young cops jumped out of their cruiser and had the situation well in hand shortly.

This is why cops dread domestic disputes. Two cops who were acquaintances of mine were killed, both answering domestic disputes at different times. One with a 12 gauge and one with an Iver Johnson .38 -

 

[Nitrogen]

Important note on pepper spray, or other sprays:

They can react very harmfully with you if you have Asthma, or other breathing problems, including (rarely) death.

Realise that any type of force can cause death. A punch, a spray, or a gunshot can each cause death if applied in a specific circumstance.

 

[strambo]

Another operative word is "was" hitting her. When you got there and confronted them (not saying you shouldn't have went back) there was no crime being committed and no one in danger. Your way of dealing with the guy made things worse.

You can talk to both of them in a non-confrontational way and try to get him to relate to your POV as much as possible. This gives you the chance to assess her (looks OK, no injuries, not terrified) and while he's talking to you, he's not beating her. If/when he gets threatening, immediately retreat to your vehicle and call the cops. He's not going to beat her to death with you watching...if he attacks you after you retreated at the 1st sign of a conflict, you will be much better off legally.

If he did not hit her (just threw papers) from his perspective he was correct. It was none of your business. From your perspective, you did the right thing to protect someone's physical safety...it's the details of how to talk to stressed out people that will help make things go smoother.

At that point he started advancing toward me and told me to mind my own business before he “did something he didn’t want to do.” I suddenly found myself in a VERY uncomfortable situation. I was absolutely terrified…not of him but of the revolver I had on my hip.

That was your subconscious saying "LEAVE!! this is not a deadly force or use of force situation!!!" your mistake was in thinking you had legal right to stand your ground, grab pepper spray and...what? Continue your investigation? She said she was not hit, you saw evidence backing that up. He told you to mind your own business again indicating you could leave and he wasn't going to attack. He was going to attack only if you didn't leave...an illegal asault if he did, but you had a clear cut out.

A common question asked of instructors in a H2H system I have trained is "How do I know if/when I should use this?" The answer is; "If you have to ask it probably isn't a violent situation." You were asking yourself what to do, what force to use because it wasn't a situation where any force was necessary...yet. You always had an out...and no one was being beaten. If, when you got to the car he was beating her badly, you would not have hesitated to drag him out and subdue him because it would have been clear what to do. Big mess to deal with after, with the GF and cops...but you may have saved her life had that been the case. From a use of force standpoint what to do would have been clear and I doubt you would have even thought of the gun much less been scared of it. Too busy handling the situation.

I'm glad you helped and don't want to see a THR member get in trouble unecessarily...not trying to be over-critical. I've had the (good?) fortune of having to talk to lots of stressed out, crazy and/or drugged up people in a previous job. There are ways to do it with very good chances of avoiding a conflict.

Edit to add:

“Hey Buddy, I’m not trying to get involved in your personal life. It looked to me like you were hitting her and I just want to make sure the lady is alright. You’d want someone to help her out if she was in trouble wouldn’t you? As long as she says she’s alright I’m outta here…none of my business what you’re arguing about.”

This is very good JGReed, and exactly what I'm talking about, avoid words like "buddy" though. "Excuse me" is less inflamitory than "Hey buddy". Body language and tone of voice play a big role too. What you are going for is laid back, but firm. Polite and non-confrontational (while confronting the problem). If he thinks you are a nice, concerned guy, it gives him no internal excuse to be the A hole. I've been apologized to on numerous occasions after dealing with beligerant people. I gave them no excuse to think of me as a jerk. I think we either cross-posted or the time change is off..I didn't see these last few posts when I clicked to respond.

 

[Cousin Mike]

First of all I didn’t threaten him with the mace until he wanted to fight. Secondly if you’re going to fight every guy who tries to talk to your girlfriend…well…good luck with that. Besides if she is independent enough to carry a gun I’d think she’s independent enough to answer a question without your help.

OK, last post for me, but here's the raw dope (so to speak).

First off - what is this "I thought she was being hit," stuff?? Either you saw someone get hit, or you didn't.. Now I've seen a lot of fights, and I've seen male/female fights as well... I don't ever recall "thinking" I saw someone get hit. Either I saw someone get struck, or I didn't. Someone being assaulted is a very easy thing to spot.

SO...

You walked up to the guy, gun in tuck, asking what the problem was. He told you to buzz off... You persisted, and the guy wanted to fight... BIG surprise there. If you're arguing with your girlfriend / wife, and someone interferes, you wouldn't be happy either. You'd probably want to swing a round or two yourself - despite whatever you'd say on this board. You also stated how you believed this guy was in inferior physical shape and you could have torn him apart in x-amount of seconds... To me, that sounded like someone who was itching to show the other fella "what he's made of."

Secondly, it's not about fighting every guy who tries to talk to my girlfriend. It's not about my girlfriend's independence. It's about a little thing called respect. If someone sees us arguing, and decides to intervene, they've crossed a line of respect. Now I dunno if it's my size, demeanor, or where I live... but around here, people don't just walk up to your woman and start talking unless they're looking for some pretty serious confrontation.

The fact of the matter is that unwanted attention directed at my girlfriend, from a male, IN MY PRESENCE, is disrespect and will not be tolerated. My girlfriend, in particular, would feel very disrespected and probably react a lot differently than the girl in your story. Neither one of us like people butting into our personal business, and I don't think we're the only people on earth who feel that way. Some people are different, I suppose.

I'm not changing the scenario - I'm working from the scenario you gave. What I called myself doing is trying to represent the other side of the opinion and let you know how I (a law-abiding CHL holder who does NOT hit women, but has argued with enough of them in public to feel that overzealous CHL holders can present a danger to his own personal safety) would have felt in that guy's shoes. The difference is not in the scenario itself, but in the way the 2 sides see the same situation. You might think you're doing a service. The guy who's girlfriend you're questioning is feeling disrespected, accosted, and probably doesn't know what to make of you interfering since he was not beating his girlfriend, and you're not an LEO... so he probably feels you have no reason to be there questioning them. Maybe he's another guy with a CCW who thinks you might be trying something funny.

My only point is that in my young 26 years on this planet, I've learned enough to know that the aforementioned situation is NOT one I want to bring a gun into. It's easy to call some guy a scumbag for yelling at his woman, and to think that by interfering you did a good thing. Put yourself in his shoes, and you probably wouldn't see things the same way.

I would never advocate passing by a woman who is being beaten by a man without helping. I will also never advocate getting in the middle of a lover's quarrel - and you said yourself that's something that you don't normally do. I trust that you have enough sense to know the difference. I CAN NOT trust that everyone else reading this thread has that same sense... So I felt a little obligated to chime in with another way of thinking.

I hear things like this sometimes and I cringe, hoping that I never have to shoot someone because they saw me and my girlfriend yelling at eachother and decided to make an issue of something that wasn't their business in the first place. Seems like a lot of guys around here are itching to take down a womanbeater, even if the guy isn't necessarily beating his woman. And it seems to me like a lot of these types consider anyone being less-than-nice to his girlfriend at the moment as being abusive...

"Looking for a reason," I guess is what I'd call it.

No harm no foul, I hope.


Edited to add: strambo said it all a lot better than I could.

 

[Hoppy590]

That could get to be pretty ugly. Now mix up the fact that my girlfriend carries also, and voila! You now have a do-gooder shot and killed for wanting to be a knight in shining armor, by the very woman he was trying to "protect."

if your girlfriend is willing to kill a man she doesnt know just for being there during an arguement. she shouldnt be allowed to carry.

and if you cant help but get into a fight with some one whos trying to help then you. or you have serious issues controlling your emotions. you probibly shouldnt be allowed to carry either

im sorry. CCW isnt for your use to dispose of people who are an inconvience to you.

 

[Cousin Mike]

if your girlfriend is willing to kill a man she doesnt know just for being there during an arguement. she shouldnt be allowed to carry.

Who said that my girlfriend would shoot him just for being there? The implication is that if a gun is pulled on me, from some random guy entering our argument, then YES... she would shoot him... And that's exactly what CCW is for... Shooting people who pull guns on you without reason.

and if you cant help but get into a fight with some one whos trying to help then you. or you have serious issues controlling your emotions. you probibly shouldnt be allowed to carry either

im sorry. CCW isnt for your use to dispose of people who are an inconvience to you.

I apologize, I couldn't make any sense of this post... But once again, I will reiterate that I never said that anyone would be shot simply for pissing us off. Also, your comments about who should be allowed to CCW are out of line and unwarranted. Read my entire post if you'd like to chime in. Typing in English, and using correct grammar and punctuation might help me to better understand what you're trying to say.

 

[strambo]

Secondly, it's not about fighting every guy who tries to talk to my girlfriend. It's not about my girlfriend's independence. It's about a little thing called respect. If someone sees us arguing, and decides to intervene, they've crossed a line of respect. Now I dunno if it's my size, demeanor, or where I live... but around here, people don't just walk up to your woman and start talking unless they're looking for some pretty serious confrontation.

If you provide that confrontation based on someone's words (just noise caused by vocal cords) you will be in the wrong legally. Provided those verbal "noises" didn't contain any threats of physical harm to you or her.

I am not my wife's "protector of honor or respect". I cannot for the life of me see how anything someone says to my wife can effect her honor and if they disrespect her or me...so what? My self esteem doesn't rely on the respect of strangers and if her's does, I married the wrong woman. I will not hesitate to take out any and all physical threats to myself or my family. People can say whatever they want though, rude or not and I won't do anything but leave.

Will I politely ask someone to leave us alone or not curse in front of children etc...certainly. What I won't do is be confrontational about it and enforce or threaten or hint at enforcing good manners with force. This is not legal, if someone refuses to have good manners and they aren't on my property, all I can do is leave.

 

[DRMMR02]

I apologize, I couldn't make any sense of this post... But once again, I will reiterate that I never said that anyone would be shot simply for pissing us off. Also, your comments about who should be allowed to CCW are out of line and unwarranted. Read my entire post if you'd like to chime in. Typing in English, and using correct grammar and punctuation might help me to better understand what you're trying to say.

There's no need to stoop to cheap shots about typing. You obviously understood his post. That's all that's needed.

This statement,

IMHO, it seems like your good samaritanism invited conflict where there wasn't any need for it. I can honestly say that if I'm ever in an argument with my girlfriend, and some do-gooder comes around threatening me, someone's getting hurt. And seeing as how I carry my gun everywhere, and have also studied martial arts for the past 20 years or so, well...

That could get to be pretty ugly. Now mix up the fact that my girlfriend carries also, and voila! You now have a do-gooder shot and killed for wanting to be a knight in shining armor, by the very woman he was trying to "protect."

really seems a bit much. Since you do carry a deadly weapon and also have substantial training in martial arts as well, you have a higher calling to NOT use that force when not absolutely necessary. If some do-gooder comes around asking questions, you resolve it like civilized men, with words. Not "someone's getting hurt".

 

[Cousin Mike]

I am not my wife's "protector of honor or respect". I cannot for the life of me see how anything someone says to my wife can effect her honor and if they disrespect her or me...so what? My self esteem doesn't rely on the respect of strangers and if her's does, I married the wrong woman. I will not hesitate to take out any and all physical threats to myself or my family. People can say whatever they want though, rude or not and I won't do anything but leave.

Jesus... you people read a lot into my posts... most of which was not meant to be read. This is not about a simple case of disrespect. This isn't about protecting someone's honor, or the different levels of disrespect someone is willing to tolerate. This is about an armed man involving himself with a couple's personal business. If I'm the only one here who understands the potential danger involved in that, then this place has changed over the last year or so since I joined.

Since you do carry a deadly weapon and also have substantial training in martial arts as well, you have a higher calling to NOT use that force when not absolutely necessary.

That sounds like something I was trying to say to the original poster. Keep in mind that I've never come here posting one of these "What do you think of the way I handled this situation?" threads, and that's for a reason... Because I don't go out in the street looking for problems to solve with my CCW or hand-to-hand fighting experience. Why am I getting flamed for playing devil's advocate?

 

[DRMMR02]

Jesus... you people read a lot into my posts... most of which was not meant to be read. This is not about a simple case of disrespect. This isn't about protecting someone's honor, or the different levels of disrespect someone is willing to tolerate. This is about an armed man involving himself with a couple's personal business. If I'm the only one here who understands the potential danger involved in that, then this place has changed over the last year or so since I joined.

But does that armed man present an actual threat to your life? He had already admitted that he was there to help. At that point, you can't do anything. Now if he is lying and really trying to rob you, that's anothe story. But being armed and asking questions does not = a BG.

Every situation is different, and you seem to be saying that you would approach them all the same. "I can honestly say that if I'm ever in an argument with my girlfriend, and some do-gooder comes around threatening me, someone's getting hurt. And seeing as how I carry my gun everywhere". What constitutes "threatening"? Why not simply find out why he's there first? "violence first, ask questions later" is the wrong approach.

 

[DRMMR02]

That sounds like something I was trying to say to the original poster. Keep in mind that I've never come here posting one of these "What do you think of the way I handled this situation?" threads, and that's for a reason... Because I don't go out in the street looking for problems to solve with my CCW or hand-to-hand fighting experience. Why am I getting flamed for playing devil's advocate?

But the OP didn't use deadly force, or even draw. He handled it properly. He asked if anything was wrong, and the guy threatened him His drawing of pepper spray was defensive, not offensive.

 

[Cousin Mike]

My main point is this simple...

What else do you expect when you confront a couple who is already in the middle of a heated argument?

Of course the guy is going to offer to clean his clock. Most guys would. If you don't want to use your CCW, don't walk around concerning yourself with other people's arguments. Just a little rule I live (and carry) by... Sorry for bringing it up, damn...

 

[strambo]

I think we are on mostly the same page Cousin Mike. The problem was using a 1st person example to play devils advocate, got us all worried about ya. I aggree, a beligerent response is to be expected from the male in this case. That's why one needs excellent verbal judo skills to determine if she is in danger, then get the heck out of there once you know she isn't before things get out of hand.

 

[Cousin Mike]

strambo, I strive for your elegance and simplicity in brilliant statement making. Thanks for at least TRYING to understand me, bro... I thought we were all on the same page too - nobody wants to see someone put themselves in a bad situation. I lost a family friend (who was a police officer) to a domestic dispute... shot in the back by the woman while handcuffing the man who beat her face in. This is one of those few things that I have very strong feelings about... I was a child when that happened.

I've also had some pretty bad arguments with my girlfriend in public, and hate to think what might have happened if I'd been approached by someone who "thought he saw something." We're way past that stage now, but young couples argue - sometimes pretty viciously. Young couples don't always know how to handle themselves in public. We've (my girlfriend and I) been there, done that, and left that stage behind... But any man who is married or in a serious relationship knows that nothing can make a man angrier than a woman. Now add some guy in the mix who wants to "protect your wife" FROM YOU, and honestly... Whoever in here says that they could undoubtedly keep their cool in that situation is full of crap. Guns being in the mix just makes it all the more potentially tragic.

I'll keep that 1st-person devil's advocate thing in mind from now on.

 

[strat81]

This is about an armed man involving himself with a couple's personal business.

It ceased to be personal business when they decided to conduct it on the side of a public road. I also don't think the OP threatened anyone until the person became belligerent towards him. Then he attempted to defend himself.

I'm not condoning that everyone with a CCW draw on every possible inflammatory situation. However, in the event of a holdup, it might necessitate it. What if you're walking down the street and see 2 guys brutally attacking a man or raping a woman? Does that constitute a reason to draw? The other thing is that we keep assuming that any man and woman fighting are romantically involved. They can be friends, estranged family members, business associates, team mates, etc etc etc.

And BTW Cousin Mike, your sig contains improper grammar. Check your use of "push-up's". No hard feelings, though.

 

[Hoppy590]

your own post holds all the info. heres the basis

you said. and i quote.

I can honestly say that if I'm ever in an argument with my girlfriend, and some do-gooder comes around threatening me, someone's getting hurt. And seeing as how I carry my gun everywhere, and have also studied martial arts for the past 20 years or so, well

when in the situation presented. no threats were made by the Good Samaritan (GS from now on). the John approached the GS looking for a fight.
the GS pulled pepper spray to discourage the fight.

so unless you didnt read the post. you obviously consider, in this situation, some one trying to assist an apearant damsel in distress as a "threat" to which you would confront him with your gun or 20 years of MA.
sorry. but thats not the highroad. Civilized people deserve a civilized response save the skull busting for muggers, rapist, and murderers

That could get to be pretty ugly. Now mix up the fact that my girlfriend carries also, and voila! You now have a do-gooder shot and killed for wanting to be a knight in shining armor, by the very woman he was trying to "protect."

so continueing with the above. a GS stops to help a damsel. you as a john take his concern for the welfare of an unknown woman as a threat worth fighting /shooting over. lets say you fight him (punches and kicks ect.) according the the above quoted post your GF then shoots the GS believing she is helping you. some one who cant tell the differance between the agressor and the defender. is that really who you want to cary a gun? (obviously you know your GF better than i do. and obviously im sure shes rational enough to not shoot some one that you are having a fight with) but your posts imply that she would shoot some one that is in an altercation with you.

your own post also display that your willing to engage a person who has nothing but good intentions.

i certainly hope you are more level headed than that.

( oh, deride my typing all you want. call me ignorant, arogant, immature, simplistic, ect i just have better things to do than argue with people over the internet. bye)

 

[orionengnr]

Cousin Mike--
While I can go along with a lot of your points, your understanding of respect/disrespect appears somewhat skewed.

That appears to be a malady shared by many people these days, most of them under 30. Lots of people end up in life-altering/life-threatening (sometimes life-ending) situations over a "respect" issue.

No offense or "disrespect" intended.