CCW can limit options

[sicario103]

Cousin Mike got it right on the bull's eye. I commend you!

A golden rule to remember.... Never get between a man and woman. Like Cousing Mike said, you don't know the situation in details. By asking the woman and telling the guy you weren't talking to him is just asking for trouble because you just told him off. I know some people just want to help, but you only escalate the situation. After the scrimage when they get home, what do you think he would have done to his wife because of what happened? Or say should something happen, and the cops arrive.... what do you think the wife will say? Who's side she will most likely take?

I've seen it happen.... a couple fights, someone gets involved and a fight breaks out and the wife might even jump in and help her husband.... cops come, wife takes husbands side....

If you want to help... just stick around for a bit.... if it gets real bad just call the cops.

But since you got involved I will admit that the pepper spray was a good move on your part. You stopped it dead cold without altercation.

Yeah getting physical with somone while carrying without a holster is not too wise... especially when your pants are somewhat bigger or baggy. That happened to me.... during a scuffle, I felt my gun sliding down my pants while I was in a clinch with one guy.... I had no other choice but to reach for it and and draw it out on them. Kinda funny after it happened.....

 

[glummer]

How about:

Pull up close enough to see (and, later, describe) the people, the make, model, & plate # of the car.

Then just sit there for a while, so they can see you writing it all down.

If nothing escalates, just leave.

 

[USMC_2674]

My scenario.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that the problem is that I have a complete situation in my head and I haven't let anyone else in on it as completely and totally as I should... Here's MY scenario, in the hopes that maybe if I type it ALL out, you might understand where I am coming from.

SO...

You and your wife are driving down the highway, having an argument about something. Let's say the bills. The argument gets heated. You're yelling at eachother. You pull over so that you don't wreck the car.

The arguing gets worse. Thw wife keeps bringing up stuff that you're not even talking about. You're trying to make a point. You don't have the money to pay for this bill, and it's serious. She refuses to listen. You get out of the car, because you need some air.

The wife continues to yell at you, saying whatever it is that she's saying, and so you throw the bills into the car and say something like "Well, damnit, you pay for it all then! I don't have the money!"

or whatever... if you're rich, and you don't argue about bills, think of something. If you have a woman, I'm sure you can think of SOMETHING you two have argued about in the car.

So... you throw the bills into the car and sit outside for a second to calm down. You notice a car turns around and approaches you. Some guy gets out of the car asking if you just hit your wife... You tell him to buzz off, and then he starts asking your wife, directly - as if he doesn't believe you. Now you've just had some guy you've never seen before basically accuse you of being a woman beater, and then try to get your wife to verify his assumptions.

You're not going to get angry at that kind of suggestion???

Bull...

You're already angry at her... So some stranger comes around suggesting that you're a wife beater, and you're already angry. You expect me to believe that you'd hold on to that temper of yours? Are you sure? What if you had a bad week at work? What if something else is wrong at home? What if this guy is confrontational in his approach, to top it all off?

So lets get off the self-righteous BS. It might be easy to try and make me sound like a caveman for admitting that certain things anger me, but maybe I'm just honest with myself. I have limits. Everyone does. It might be cool to come in a forum and talk like icewater runs through your veins, but most men aren't built to handle that kind of insult.

And if you'd never even consider hitting a woman, then being accused of doing just that is exactly how you would see that accusation... as an insult.

So...

You tell me... if that situation turns ugly - if a gun is drawn, or a fistfight breaks out - who was wrong? The man who intervened on a mistaken assumption, or the couple for defending themselves from an obviously mistaken and confrontational stranger with a gun and a can of pepper-spray?

I don't know about you, but my freedom is too precious to involve myself in something that potentially tragic on an assumption. There are too many variables in that situation - and as already said... If you have to ask yourself "...am I justified?"

...then you're probably not.

Cousin Mike:

Wow. You have some huge self-esteem issues. YOU scare me.

I can't believe the kind of stuff you are spouting about "respect" and the other bull****. If you can't handle a person trying to help your SO, then you have huge problems in my book.

1) I have RARELY (two times) argued with my wife, and NEVER in public. NEVER. I have NEVER raised my voice to my wife in anger or argument. NEVER. You would never be able to tell if we were having an argument as we respect each other enough to not raise our voices or fists.

2) If someone ever approached my wife in a calm and rationale manner as described here, I would THANK HIM for having enough respect for a "woman in need" to stop and protect her. I would let my wife answer him (she is a grown woman), and she would inform him that he had appraised the situation incorrectly and could leave. She would also thank him for his time.

I truly hope that my daughters (10 and 8 years old right now) date men who have enough respect for themselves (true self-respect seems to be sorely lacking on your part Cousin Mike) and for their dates / wives that they A) won't argue in public (or argue at all) and B) won't run their mouth (and their fists and gun) off at a person who tries to help.

A lot of people I have met and worked with are a lot like you. Quick to anger, no self-respect... all full of pride and have issues with "respect". Those who have worked with gang members quickly recognize the stereotype of a young man or woman who is their own source of life difficulty. I have a nephew who is exactly like you who is going to wind up dead at an early age because of his poor judgement skills and illusion of low self worth.

When you spout off about how often you have fought (vocally) in public with your girlfriend(s), it just proves what kind of man you are not. (edited to add this sentence).

Semper Fidelis

*****************

To the original starter of this thread...

Good Job. If everyone was as honorable as you are, then you would never have had to intervene.

Semper Fidelis

 

[Cousin Mike]

Number one:

Respect: If I am with someone, alone, whatever... and someone decides to invade my/our personal space with unwanted attention and advances, and refuses to go away once asked, told, whatever...

...that's disrespect, simple and plain. If you disagree, and would let someone all up in your wife's face when that persons attention was not wanted by her, then I feel sorry for your family. If anything is wrong with my self-esteem, it's that I'm concieted.

But hey, at least I admit it, and don't try to come in forums talking like I'm the messiah with a CCW.

Also, about "letting my girlfriend answer." I never said I would prevent her from answering anything. Where did you people get this stuff?

I would GLADLY let my girlfriend answer someone who wanted to interfere in our personal business and ask if I had beat her... By time she finished cursing you out and questioning everything that makes you a man and a human being, I'd be more than happy to escort your silly ass back to your car with your feelings all hurt, and I promise... I wouldn't even comment about how stupid you were for not taking my advice and leaving.

If my S/O needs your help, she'll ask for it. She is TRULY an independant woman, and doesn't need another man, or ANY man, to save her butt. She also will not be pushed around - by me, some wannabe hero who demands and answer for a BS question, or anyone else. I, personally, cannot stand a weak woman. The women in my family are strong women, and I will always be with a strong woman. To try and make me seem abusive and mentally disturbed because you disagree with me (about interfering in people's disputes, no less) is not only stupid, but it's incredibly juvenile.

I can't help but wonder what kind of women some of you guys have at home. If you think independence is her accepting another man's unwanted advances in front of you, well... I'm glad I don't have your wives, I'll say that! My girlfriend does not like other men bothering her... Period. I can't say that I mind that about her. Soooo, my posts about my girlfriend and how she would react to such behavior might be beyond some of your comprehension, since it seems that some of you married such helpless little women, who don't mind the attention of overzealous and aggressive male strangers.

I have a lioness at home... I never wanted a pussycat.

Number two: I don't rightfully give a damn how often you claim to have argued with your wife in the past, and am inclined to call you either a.) a liar, or b.) a very naive man... If you married a woman you've only argued with twice over the course of courtship, dating and marriage, then I feel sorry for you... You'd better watch her, because she's up to something, cool guy - but don't take my word for it

Number three: I'm sorry, but you seem to have a few issues yourself. It seems you can't understand couples disagreeing on something. Funny, I don't see any problem with a couple arguing. Maybe that's because I mind my own damn business like a grown man should. Especially a grown man who carries a lethal weapon.

As for my relationship, I never said we've yelled and screamed in eachother faces and made scenes in public. There are ways to argue quietly, and sometimes 18 year old girls and 21 year old guys (the age we were when we met) don't act the way the world thinks they should. You are no one I feel the need to explain myself to, so what you should probably do is just go on and be secure in your perfect relationship with your perfect wife that you've never argued with.

Number Four: To act as if you know me personally and compare me to your idiot nephew is amusing as well as offensive. For a 26 year old man with no criminal record, a job, a fiancee and an education, you sure have me painted out to be quite the little thug, don't you? I'm glad the internet gives you the ability to read people's posts and know their whole lives, but the matter at hand is that while some of you think it's okay to walk around confronting people and trying to save their wives and girlfriends, some people's wives and girlfriend's DON'T WANT YOU COMING AROUND TRYING TO CONFRONT THEIR HUSBANDS!

If that bothers you, then maybe you should leave the Marine Corps and get into the super-hero business. Oh damn!!! That's right, the super-hero business doesn't exist! You also seem to know a lot about lack of self-respect. Could it be you're one of those types who joined the military for that very reason?

But seriously, here's my wish for you, USMC, since you seem to feel that the OP's (stupid and self-righteous) actions were so honorable and that my opinion is so barbaric... I hope you find yourself in the EXACT same situation, tough guy. Then come back here and tell us ALL about it, will you? I'd like to hear what a tough Marine would do to save a damsel not-in-distress from a paper-wielding sadist - and maybe you'll even have some cool tough-guy quotes like the OP about "sucking down this whole can of pepper-spray!"

That is, unless the guy you're talking to makes you eat said can of pepper spray.

As for your daughters, as long as they're not as simple-minded, prejudging and loudmouthed as their father, they should be fine.

As for what kind of man I am... A man acknowledges his emotions, and tries to overcome them when necessary... Only a fool tries to convince himself that a man should show no emotion.

Let me know how that perfect marriage of yours works out in the meantime.

Edited to delete one comment that was undoubtedly NOT HighRoad material

 

[Headless]

I think Cousin Mike is making a great example of why people are so scared to simply try and help someone who looks like they are in distress in this society; you never know who the hell is batsh*t insane and willing to fight or kill over the stupidest things, including, apparently, trying to make sure ones significant other is being harmed. "Never come between a man and a woman" indeed; just let the guy beat her to a pulp and be on your way. Don't even bother asking if the woman is OK; both people may try to kill you for asking a question. Wonders never cease; i'm outta here.

 

[Cousin Mike]

Headless:

I think wannabe cops, vigilante's, self-proclaimed "sheepdogs," and guys with something to prove who fantasize about saving women from nothing makes all CCW'ers look like overzealous mall ninja's with nothing better to do, and not like the responsible, law-abiding society of gun owners that we try to be.

I think people like THAT scare those of us who'd like to go about our day without actually USING our CCW's. You know, you guys who walk around getting involved in people's disputes, looking for excuses to use your guns and pepper spray?

The guys with something to prove... people who actually go out in the street with a weapon and act the way you claim you would, or the way the OP actually did... those are the folks who scare me.

WHAT REALLY SCARES ME IS THAT YOU FOLKS ARE GROWN MEN, AND YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE POINT! AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF, YOU PEOPLE CARRY GUNS!!!!

Now THAT is friggin' scary. Don't worry about me, I'm not interested in beating your head in for asking me anything. Worry about your buddy, the OP, who might mace you (while a gun is tucked in his waist) for something he THINKS he saw, and is willing to put himself right smack in the middle of a situation that could escalate without warning... with only his J-frame and delusions of nobility to guide him in his righteousness.

To each his own, I suppose. I know I'm not going to prison for shooting an unarmed man, brandishing a firearm, or any other actions that would make me the aggressor in a court of law... I also won't be suffering PTSD because I killed someone over a mistake.

How about you?

 

[USMC_2674]

Cousin Mike,

Thanks for pointing out even more clearly who you are.

I wish you luck in your life.

As a final note, arguing with your spouse in a manner that would draw attention while you are in public, is not considered healthy nor normal.

Here is how an encounter like this SHOULD work out... x2 situations.

*************

Situation 1

Man appears to be hitting his wife.

Good guy turns his car around and walks up to them and asks the woman if she needs help.

Woman says, "No, but thanks for asking". Man, explains that he was swatting at the hornet near his wife in the car (or whatever the real reason for hime to appear to be hitting a woman) and the Good Guy walks back to his car having done the right thing.

*************

Situation 2

Man appears to be hitting his wife.

Good guy turns his car around and walks up to them ans asks the woman if she needs help.

Woman says, "Yes, my "insert expletive" boyfriend / husband is beating me up. Please take me to the police station."

Good Guy takes woman away. Man may try to start something but probably won't because he is the kind of person who is a bully and only attacks those who are defenseless. Even if Man does start something, Good Guy is better equipped than Woman to handle the idiot.

**************

There is only ONE option for a real man who sees a woman being hit.

There are a lot of options for a reasonable man and woman. Cousin Mike's reaction falls under NONE of the "reasonable" options.

Nobody is talking about driving around and trying to find a woman in distress. Nobody is talking about wanna be cops, vigilantes or anybody with anything to prove (except for you and you talking about maintaining your "respect" with your peeps).

I won't be responding to this thread again. You have made it clear that you will do what you have to to maintain your "respect"... and I have made it clear that not everyone is a gang banging "respect getting" thug (I could probably add more stereotypes if I wanted to, but it isn't worth it).

Back to the original thread.

*********

A few things you could have done better.

1) Carry 24 / 7.

2) I have nothing bad to say against "in the waistband style" of carry... it can be very secure with the right body / clothes. But if it isn't secure for you, wear a holster.

3) You could have just parked nearby and watched (as has been pointed out). Then you would have made sure exactly what your response should have been.

Beyond that I applaud your bravery and wish more of you existed and less of "others" existed in this world.

Good luck and Semper Fidelis!

 

[Cousin Mike]

Hey, I stated yesterday that I would leave this thread. I consider your post to basically be baiting me back into the discussion.

Here is how an encounter like this SHOULD work out... x2 situations.

*************

Situation 1

Man appears to be hitting his wife.

Good guy turns his car around and walks up to them and asks the woman if she needs help.

Woman says, "No, but thanks for asking". Man, explains that he was swatting at the hornet near his wife in the car (or whatever the real reason for hime to appear to be hitting a woman) and the Good Guy walks back to his car having done the right thing.

*************

Situation 2

Man appears to be hitting his wife.

Good guy turns his car around and walks up to them ans asks the woman if she needs help.

Woman says, "Yes, my "insert expletive" boyfriend / husband is beating me up. Please take me to the police station."

Good Guy takes woman away. Man may try to start something but probably won't because he is the kind of person who is a bully and only attacks those who are defenseless. Even if Man does start something, Good Guy is better equipped than Woman to handle the idiot.

**************

There is only ONE option for a real man who sees a woman being hit.

There are a lot of options for a reasonable man and woman. Cousin Mike's reaction falls under NONE of the "reasonable" options.

Cousin Mike never gave a "reaction." So WTH are you talking about?

That's all nice and good, but none of it is the point. The OP was not in either one of these (childishly written and hopelessly idealistic) situations, and I NEVER stated how I would react to "thinking" I saw a woman being hit.

I gave a definition of respect. You obviously have no comment, which is probably for the better. I also asked some questions that you failed to answer, which I expected.

It's nice to make up a bunch of things to comment on, but none of you have yet to touch the REAL issue. The way the OP handled this situation was premature at best, and malicious at worst, with a LOT of grey area in between. The way he talked to the man in question was rude, and invited confrontation. He did not leave once he verified that he didn't see what he "thought" he saw. This is not the behavior people with a concealed weapon need to be engaging in. I'm not aware of any state where you can brandish a firearm or shoot at someone for starting a confrontation - because you THINK you saw something. It's irresponsible. And had it gotten ugly, it would also be criminal. I also think it's irresponsible for other people to congratulate that kind of attitude and/or course of action. Maybe one of you can pay his legal fees since you think so highly of his tactics.

It's nice to salute bravery and idealism until people get killed and/or locked up. And as far as your racially/culturally stereotypical comments about "gang-banging" and "my peeps", I believe that this shows what kind of man you are... about half the man you pretend to be on the internet.

I bet you don't talk that way around the brothers in the Corps.

 

[AJ Dual]

USMC_267, I agree with you that audible fighting in public with your signficant other is unnaceptable. My wife can be a bit more on the "feisty" side at times, but even then, I never engage her with more than a "look", and anything I have to say is in conversational tones. I can not abide spewing out the "Jerry Springer Factor" for the world to see. My own senses of decorum and personal dignity mean that its just not an option for me either.
However, in your situations, you forgot to add:

Situation 3

Man actualy is hitting his wife.

Good guy turns his car around and walks up to them ans asks the woman if she needs help.

Woman says, "No! He's not hitting me! Get the $#@& outta here!" in between punches to her face.

Good Guy stands there dumbfounded. Man tries to start something because he is the kind of person who is a violent bully and attacks anyone and anything that angers him. Good Guy is better equipped than Woman to handle the idiot, but Woman instinctively jumps into the fray to help Man against Good Guy, even though he'd been beating the snot out of her just seconds before. Or, Woman stays out of it, Good Guy gets the upper hand on the man, subdues, or even is forced to shoot him, but Woman testifies against the man to the police, maybe even in court...

While everyone has different opinions, that's why at minimum, most everyone agrees that getting into the middle of a "domestic" is such a crap sandwich to take a bite from, and even the "professionals" (LEO's) hate them. I'm not saying "don't do it", but it's hardly as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be.

 

[Jeff White]

That's enough! This is the Strategies and Tactics Forum on THR not some high school board where people can rant and rave about how real men would react to a problem.

I want to know which state issues Superman's Cape along with their CCW permit. As far as I know, no state does. If you think you have some need to run around intervening in other peoples problems then you have no business carrying a gun, pepper spray or anything else you could hurt someone with.

Your weapon is to protect yourself and your family. You aren't a peace officer. It's not your job to walk through society with a gun on your hip and promote peace, justice and the American way.

This one is done.

Jeff