One in the chamber or no?

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wild cat mccane said:

If I get robbed I am giving the money. I am not a gun fighter.
If I get physically attacked I am very fit. I wouldn't hold a chance of 'a reasonable person's' fear for life. Also, I am not drawing a gun on someone immediately for hitting me.

The reason I carry a gun is for other people and when I see it will be needed. If someone out smarts me, I am not drawing the gun.

Personal preference Your answer is as good as mine.
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Uhh, stumped here.

Well I will assume the law in your neck of America allows you to draw in defense of others. Mine doesn't. This is labeled as "vigilante" work and the Police don't like other peeps attempting to do their job for them.

The rules in my state do allow me to drill a guy trying to whoop my ass, differs from being slapped once or twice, since there is no way for me to accurately ascertain that the beating will stop short of my death of that the beating will end with me and my family be untouched.

However I can not shoot a mugger who asks me for my wallet and doesn't show me a lethal weapon. I am likely to say no whether I am strapped or not since I am reasonably certain that I can get past a knife with out serious injury to myself. If he brandishes a gun, and I have mine, then I will stall, make my move for my wallet and produce my pistol. Squeeze, call 911 and start locking down my side of story while I wait for the whoop whoops.

Lethal force can be administered with a pencil, a fist and a gun.
 
I wish BGs carried with holstered guns. Any more time involved in their draw is good for us good guys right?
That and no back up guns for them, no spare mags and no autoloaders. I couldn't imagine leaving home with anything less than 3 guns on me.
They should also be encouraged to carry unsafe guns, like revolvers with only 5 or 6 shots. You practically are begging to be killed by going outgunned like that.
If they also carried 1911s that would be nice also. Apparently they have many parts that fail due to being customized by individuals who aren't gunsmiths.
While we are at it, they also should carry Glocks because they explode.
 
Impureclient said:
...Seriously, the only one hand argument is getting old....
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Perhaps to you. But after all, it's called a handgun, not a hands gun.

Why carry a gun at all, if not for a genuine emergency? And you have no way to predict how an emergency will occur.

Carry how you like, but there's a reason the major schools and trainers teach carrying with a round in the chamber.

Impureclient said:
...If you carry chambered and in a holster, when you get a chance, time your time from reaching for the gun, unconcealment of the holstered gun from behind whatever clothing conceals it, unholstering gun, drawing it on target and squeezing the trigger. ....
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I have, both in training and in practice. My time, from an audible signal to the last of two rounds on target, center of mass, at 7 yards, runs about 1.3 to 1.6 seconds.

Impureclient said:
...Everybody who is on here and carries concealed with an empty chamber is always chastised for their decisions. What makes everybody think they have the right to demean those who carry unchambered? There is no such thing as a AD/ND with an unchambered gun. I like the fact that I have never killed anybody with my gun or shot a hole through a wall accidentally. I intend to keep it that way and if it means carrying unchambered(unless I enter a situation/place that is too unsafe, which I stay away from as it is)then I am OK with that....
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[1] What gives you the right to chastise and demean those who carry with a round chambered?

[2] There is no such thing as an AD/ND unless one does something wrong. An AD/ND is within your control.

[3] I've never killed anyone or shot a hole in a wall accidentally. I intend to keep it that way; and if that means getting training and practicing regularly to learn and develop good habits and maintain a decent level of proficiency, that's what I'll do.

[4] We can stay out of places we think are unsafe, but bad things do happen in places people consider safe. You can't always know when what you think is a safe place becomes unsafe.

Impureclient said:
...If that person has made the decision to carry a tool that will kill and deems it necessary to carry unchambered, then respect that they made the decision...
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I can respect your decision, but if you ask my opinion, I will give it.
 
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Reap: LOL

California

And, uh, I'ma world class sprinter, you can out run a knife!!!

nice fishing though
 
I didn't expect you take my answers seriously. But glad that you did one more laugh for me.

Thanks LV out
 
since I am reasonably certain that I can get past a knife with out serious injury to myself.
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Hoo boy. I know a fair number of martial arts teachers who say, "run as fast as you can" if a knife comes out. They don't even pretend you can survive an encounter with a blade without getting messed up pretty bad. Either run or hope you can get your gun into play in time. Bladed weapons should not be disrespected.
 
thanks, really, scar in my right armpit, I hear you. Truly I do, I do not make light of it, I do realize that this is the internet and brass balls are abound, but I earned mine.
 
That's why they should invent a gun that uses no hands. It would be attached to your head and when you look in a direction a laser beam shows where the gun aims. Seriously, the only one hand argument is getting old.

I have to wonder why when it comes to this subject in here, it is allowed to be low road all of a sudden with no moderators stepping in. Those who carry chambered call those who don't not ready to carry and incompetent, not safe, not socially responsible, pointless to carry unchambered, and noobie in this post alone thus far. The line of attack the argument and not the arguer is being stepped on in here.
If you carry chambered and in a holster, when you get a chance, time your time from reaching for the gun, unconcealment of the holstered gun from behind whatever clothing conceals it, unholstering gun, drawing it on target and squeezing the trigger. Then try putting in in your pocket unchambered while gripping the handle and time that the reaction time from that point which includes racking the slide. Not everybody wants to hold their gun in their front pocket and not everyone wants to carry chambered. We won't have to go down the path of saying how slow a concealed/holstered draw is because you've already made your mind up that to carry that way and even if it shaves a few tenths of a second off your reaction times, you probably aren't changing now. Even if those few tenths off your reaction time mean your and your loved one's lives.

Now that last sentence kid of hits home doesn't it? Remember the "only one hand" argument?

Everybody who is on here and carries concealed with an empty chamber is always chastised for their decisions. What makes everybody think they have the right to demean those who carry unchambered? There is no such thing as a AD/ND with an unchambered gun. I like the fact that I have never killed anybody with my gun or shot a hole through a wall accidentally. I intend to keep it that way and if it means carrying unchambered(unless I enter a situation/place that is too unsafe, which I stay away from as it is)then I am OK with that. If my gun is involved in a AD/ND by malfunction, some object grabbing the trigger, my finger or another's, Mr. Ayoob isn't going to call me up and take blame for my carrying methods if it goes bad. Nobody has to live with my decision to carry chambered and have the gun gun off and cause a death/injury. It's easy to armchair quarterback and say chambered is the only way. Instead of jumping on the keyboard and ridiculing others on the way of their decision on carry, try understanding there is a person on the other side of the screen who cares about their own life and others just like you. If that person has made the decision to carry a tool that will kill and deems it necessary to carry unchambered, then respect that they made the decision to at least protect themselves and others around them if the need arises by carrying that gun.
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Well, I HAVE been involved in a Justifiable Homicide, and have been shot at "more than once".. (My family owned convenience stores)..

Things I have noticed:
Every time I have had to draw a gun, I have not had time to rack the slide.
Every time I was faced with a "stressful" situation, I either had one hand busy or was using one hand to "push back" or close a door, or SOMETHING.

I carry one in the chamber.

I hope it never happens to you, but if it does, you never have time to "worry" which is why whatever I am carrying, it is ready.
 
Keep in mind that the Israelis don't chamber a round until they are ready to go.
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Israeli carry was designed for a situation that is very different from CCWing. It was designed to have a common manual of arms across a broad spectrum of in-service weapons, and in order to keep sometimes minimally-trained soldiers safe until they were into a combat zone, whereupon they could load and make ready. This is about as far from a CCW self-defense scenario as I can imagine. But, because the Israelis do it and we all know they have the most ninja-like military on the surface of the earth, it still comes up as a good thing to do for the CCWer.

It isn't.

The "old one hand argument" isn't tiresome, it is the truth. I'm a cop, and a large percentage of the officer-involved shootings of which I have personal knowledge involved an officer wrestling with a suspect. He would not have been able to draw and rack the slide, because his support hand was full of Bad Guy. A large percentage of armed robberies include a preliminary physical assault in order to get the victim of balance and on the defensive before the gun is presented. In most of those instances, the victim was warding of blows with one or both hands. Getting a gun into play would have been hard enough with one hand. Two would have been impossible. Many times the robbery occurs at a time in which you are preoccupied- carrying something (perhaps the item the robber wants), guiding a child, protecting a loved one, opening a door, calling for help on a phone. And, of course, your arm could have been injured already by the time you draw. I've watched countless armed robberies on surveilance tapes. In most of the situations where the victim has a gun and shoots back, there would have been no time for him to run the slide.

You need something you can operate one handed, immediately.

I've seen people draw and rack a slide and get the gun into operation very quickly. I have no doubt that they can draw, charge, present and fire a gun more quickly than a less experienced shooter can simply draw and fire. No doubt. However, the idea that it is "just as fast" as drawing and shooting is false. Assuming equally skilled people, the person drawing and firing will be faster than the person drawing, charging, and shooting; it's simple mechanics. This means that if you invested the time and effort it takes to become proficient at the draw, charge, shoot drill into perfecting the plain draw and shoot drill, you'd probably be significantly faster just drawing and shooting.

The reason these threads get so much play from the "Condition 1" crowd is not because they care what YOU do with your gun, but they do care what advice gets presented to novice shooters.

Mike
 
The reason these threads get so much play from the "Condition 1" crowd is not because they care what YOU do with your gun, but they do care what advice gets presented to novice shooters.
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Mike, that is a great way to say that. Thanks!:)
 
By the response this topic generates in numbers each time, rather than Condition Oneer's trying to educate or facilitate a quicker draw; I believe we have more "closet Condition 3's" than we are led to believe.
Let me say that for many years I practiced and am proficient in the Israeli Draw, but there were some factors that led me to change to one in the tube. Long story short, I was confronted by some gang bangers at a truck stop when I realized due to the circumstances of distance & time factor with little room to manuever for a slide rack; that changed it for me...
I certainly don't criticize anyone for there mode of carry, I took the heat when I defended Cond.3 on many forums, so I say to each their own and be proficient.
I'm still haunted by the video of the jewelry store owner who knows he's about to be robbed. He sees the BG pull out his gun and while he brings his 1911 from B.O.B., he fails to to flip the safety and he's pulling on nothing while the bastard is plugging away at his helpless body. He survived another robbery...Moral: In the heat of battle, you still might forget a thing like the safety...
 
I intend to keep it that way and if it means carrying unchambered(unless I enter a situation/place that is too unsafe, which I stay away from as it is)then I am OK with that.
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So, if you're in an "unsafe" place, you would exercise your sense of prudence and carry your pistol with a round chambered? Are you clairvoyant? Do you think those poor souls who were killed by madmen thought they were in an "unsafe" place as they ate their meals at their favorite restaurant; as they worshipped at their church of choice; as they were taking notes at the school they were attending or as they were performing their jobs at their workplaces?

If you carry a gun for self-protection, it is because you believe that there might be, however unlikely, a situation you could find yourself in where, literally, life and death is at stake. Steering clear of "bad neighborhoods" is good advice. But, if that's all you had to do to avoid trouble, then you might as well leave your gun at home. But, no, you choose to carry because you know that things aren't that predictable; that evil exists and that you, or your loved ones, are not immune from the horrors that evil can wreak on innocents, people who did not go out asking for trouble but trouble found them anyway.

Certainly, you can carry your pistol any way you see fit, chambered round or unchambered, and I haven't seen anyone yet being "chastised" for exercising their free-will; though sometimes it is hard to separate the "arguer from the argument". This one thing I know though: I'm retired le and I'm aware of no police department in America that would even allow there officers to carry a pistol with an unchambered round. None. It's not even an option because it would be the height of folly to expect an officer to enter a gunfight with one hand tied behind his back. You might argue that a cop's job is different from your carrying a pistol concealed for self-defense. That may sound reasonable until you have to use your pistol to defend yourself. It is only then you'll learn that, when it comes to saving your bacon from an armed assailant, your roles weren't so far apart after all.

You can take this to the bank: What's good for the cop on the beat is not too good for you. If you've decided to carry a pistol for self-defense, keep it configured in the mode it was intended- with a round in the chamber.
 
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You can take this to the bank: What's good for the cop on the beat is not too good for you. If you've decided to carry a pistol for self-defense, keep it configured in the mode it was intended- with a round in the chamber.
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The cop on the beat is not normally going to be prey. It's happened, but not often. The citizen going about his daily business, however, may indeed become the target of thieves or muggers. The cop may be directed to a place of violent danger and know beforehand to make ready. The citizen can only be vigilant and watchful. So there's some differences to consider and "what's good for the cop" may not be appropriate for the citizen.
 
The cop on the beat has to be just as ready for unexpected action as the CCWer. Probably moreso. Our last three police-involved shootings were not runs where anyone would have anticipated a special need for armed response. Heck, the overwhelmingly vast majority of LE shootings are that way (I picked the last three because I have personal knowledge of what happened in all of them), as evidenced by the fact that the bad guy is usually shot with a sidearm, and not a long gun. ;)

And, as was mentioned, no LE agency of which I am aware allows "Israeli Carry". It's not safe.

Mike
 
The cop on the beat has to be just as ready for unexpected action as the CCWer.
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Absolutely. The cop is more likely to be in high adrenaline situations. My comment was not directed toward condition one issues, but a note that what goes for police is not necessarily a guide for what's best for the CCW holder. Because "cops do it" isn't an apples to apples argument. Actually, the differences between citizens and cops argue even more strongly for the need for CCWs to keep one in the chamber. Snubbie users, for their part, are unlikely to want the hammer on an empty chamber so as to only have 4 rounds available.

All that said, though, if somebody wants carry with an empty chamber, it's better than not carrying at all in terms of having options. And, with time and experience, that person will likely migrate to condition one anyway.
 
to five chambers, amen. my first carry gun when i was young was my dad's 38 special 5 shot. when i transitioned into autos later in college, there was never a question. Now I like sigs and kahr steel
 
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