CCW crime rate data

[david58]

Well before I obtained my CCW permits, I heard time and again about the extremely low rate of crimes committed by permit holders. Now, this has been thrust before me: http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm.

So, I ask, do we have "counterintelligence" on this topic to refute these numbers?

Is this VPC just another political liberal left-wing bunch, or are they for real?

 

[shootstraight57]

I don't know if this is true or not but they have been known to stretch the truth. In my opinion Bloombird has only one agenda and that is guns only belong to military, licensed security officers and police.
The VPC have also tried to attack Gun Shows in the past. Read the American Rifleman January 2010. There is an article name The War on Gun Shows Pg. 16.
He is obsessed and will try anything for gun control IMO.

 

[Tcruse]

First thing is the source. "People killed" being high may be a good indication. This report includes the criminals in this count. So, every one of those may have prevented several good guys from being killed. So, a better count would be number of lives saved. This organization is not a good source of information.

 

[SN13]

"Above is the current tally from May 2007 to the present of killings involving persons with concealed carry permits or who committed a killing in public with a legal handgun in a state that allows concealed carry without a permit"

So any firearm related death in (Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont) are automatically classified as CONCEALED CARRY KILLERS!

 

[The Bushmaster]

My question is...Are we talkin' about those who have carry permits or a bad guy that carries in his pocket and has no permit?

I'm a CCW permit holder and I carry daily. The stats given by legitimate orginizations don't reflect vpc's stats.

 

[Spats McGee]

Check out the website for the Texas Department of Public Safety. Dig around there and you should find some statistics as to the number of folks with CCLs convicted of crimes as compared to the public at large. If I recall correctly, it is even broken down by crime.

 

[legaleagle_45]

So any firearm related death in (Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont) are automatically classified as CONCEALED CARRY KILLERS!

Such as Loughner... additionally, it includes non firearm related deaths associated with persons who are CCW holders and all deaths associated with CCW holders whether they were in public or not. Many of the deaths were domestic disputes not associated with carrying concealed and some involved purely accidental deaths and some did not involve firearms whatsoever... They also include in their count incidents that are still open for investigation or are subject to a plea of self defense. Zimmerman is included in the the talley, for example. Finally, it includes in its count the killer if he committed suicide following a killing.

VPC is a virulent antigun organization and is basically a wholly owned subsidary of the Joyce Foundation. Its chief executive is Josh Sugarmann who coined the term "assualt weapon" and prides himself on the public confusion over fully automatic weapons associated with such terminology.

But let us take a look at their talley. 471 since May 2007. That is 5 and 1/2 years, for an average of about 85 per year, which is roughly equivalent to the number of people killed annually in the US by being struck by lightening.

According to 'Storm Data', a publication of the National Weather Service based on newspaper clippings, an average of 87 lightning fatalities occurred per year from 1959-1995. However, we know that the number is underestimated by at least 30% so that the figures are more realistically about 120-125 fatal injuries per year. Only about 10% of people who are struck are killed, leaving 90% with various degrees of disability.

http://www.thunderstruk.com/facts2.htm

So, we can safely conclude that more people would be saved if there was a law which requires persons to wear little beanies with a grounded lightning rod attached than if we banned CCW.

 

[627PCFan]

How do you take them seriously with quality statements like this

•In 2006, as the result of the findings of the 2004 Violence Policy Center study Vest Buster: The .500 Smith & Wesson Magnum— blah blah blah blah

Anti-gun folks never truly understand firearms in their conquest. You dont have to "defeat" a vest in any caliber to stop the wearer-

 

[ny32182]

Anyone can manipulate stats to make any "point" they want.

Watch this: VPC cites 471 "total people killed by CONCEAL CARRY KILLERS" since 2007. Sounds bad, right? I think we all know that if we dig, 90% of those would not be murders of an innocent party, but just for kicks lets pretend they ALL fit that category. That is 94.2 per year. There are at least 10,000 murders in the US each year. According to VPC's OWN "STATS", that is less than 1% of murders committed by CONCEAL CARRY KILLERS. Guess what population percentage has a carry permit? I bet nationwide it is somewhere around 1%. So right out of the gate, WORST CASE for the conceal carry holders, they commit a percentage of murders that is right in line with the percentage of people that have a permit.

Yeah, that is a trend alright.

Did having a little laminated card (or not) in their pocket ever make any criminal do or not do anything? Anyone who believes it does is nuttier than squirrel turds. VPC is a prime example.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

Pretty small number considering CCW holders are estimated in stopping 2.5 million crimes per year by conservative estimates. I get the feeling that the number is rather high although I can't find any sources refuting VPC by a reputable source. Just rehash numbers from VPC.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Are the killings of would-be murderers by CCW holders included in the VPC tally?

 

[Librarian]

You want to download and read the doc at http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2095754

In short, VPC is not a good source.

 

[mhuxtable]

Honestly, being on gun forums and seeing how some people conduct themselves and the activities they talk about, it would not surprise me at all if that data was 100% accurate.

 

[MedWheeler]

I recall a similar so-called report on the state level, using Florida, which has the oldest "shall-issue" licensing program. I cannot remember the numbers, but the "study " was based on revocations of carry licenses for any criminal action, including actions that didn't even involve a firearm. As it were, the numbers showed that non-licenseholders were more than thirty times more likely to be arrested for a crime that would qualify for revocation were it committed by a licenseholder than were actual licenseholders. Roughly, I remember that right around 300 licenses had been revoked since October of 1987 (when the state licensing program went into effect), out of right around one million license issued overall in that time period.

 

[brboyer]

I recall a similar so-called report on the state level, using Florida, which has the oldest "shall-issue" licensing program. I cannot remember the numbers, but the "study " was based on revocations of carry licenses for any criminal action, including actions that didn't even involve a firearm. As it were, the numbers showed that non-licenseholders were more than thirty times more likely to be arrested for a crime that would qualify for revocation were it committed by a licenseholder than were actual licenseholders. Roughly, I remember that right around 300 licenses had been revoked since October of 1987 (when the state licensing program went into effect), out of right around one million license issued overall in that time period.

According to the DOACS (the Florida state agency in charge of our licensing):
From 10/1/1987 through 10/31/2012 there have been a total of 168 licenses revoked where the license holder committed a crime involving a firearm out of over 2.2 million licenses issued in that time period.

I did not find a breakdown on what all those crimes were but even if they were all murders (they were not) that would give Florida a maximum Concealed Carry Killer :banghead: rate of less than Eight one-thousandths of one percent of license holders.

(If my math is correct: 168 / 2,200,000 ~ 0.000076: I rounded up to 0.00008)

Source: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.pdf

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

The percentage of ccw licensees that commit murders is so low that if it were a disease , no one would be looking for a cure ! Kevin

 

[Art Eatman]

Both the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) and the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) have issue press releases stating that holders of CHLs are the least-arrested group of any identifiable group, regardless of cause for arrest.

We seem to be among the most pacifistic of all groups.

 

[hermannr]

using Florida, which has the oldest "shall-issue" licensing program

Not true MedWheeler. Washington State has had "Shall Issue" since 1961, no training required, and a general CC permit system since 1935.

 

[MedWheeler]

BrBoyer, the two reasons our numbers are dissimilar is that your find only included firearms-crimes, and that it included data from the past year. It was probably a little over a year ago that I read the study myself, so the numbers would, of course, be different. But the point remains the same, that licensed-to-carry individuals statistically make up a more-law-abiding group as a whole. If one thinks about it, licenseholders need not follow the law; any of us could carry concealed in violation of the law and not get caught. But, it's the nature of the person who follows through with the legal requirements to be in compliance (and remain in compliance) to behave themselves to protect the "prize", which, of course, is the license/permit.

 

[radiotom]

Honestly, being on gun forums and seeing how some people conduct themselves and the activities they talk about, it would not surprise me at all if that data was 100% accurate.

Really? I've noticed that everybody seems to be really nice on gun forums all over the internet. Certainly much friendlier and more professional than the average internet forum user.

 

[mljdeckard]

I think Art nailed it in #17.

Look at it this way. This is counting since 2007. In a nation of roughly 12,000 homicides per year, this is about 47000. They have ACCUSED, (Note, many of these cases were not convicted for various reasons,) about 520 permit holders and citizens of states that don't require permits to carry. Of these, FROM THEIR OWN NUMBERS, at least 457 of these appear to be legitimate self-defense cases. Of the cases where CCW holders shot policemen, (By the way that number is so small as to be statistically insignificant,) it doesn't say how many turned out to be legitimate self-defense. When you take out those 457, that makes it a percentage of what, .0014 of the homicides committed were by permit holders? Am I the only one who finds that number AMAZINGLY low?

 

[GAF]

I have read some of the cases in the private citizens killed by CCW permit holders and fail to see what the permit had to do with the murder .

Murder is murder !!! Not one case that I read did the shooter need to have a permit to commit their crime.

 

[sfed]

It is not Murder

I cant see a CCW holder shooting and killing a person committing a violent crime as MURDER. If the holder of the permit were acting to stop the commission of a violent crime, I would call it a justifiable killing and not a murder. I would also think in such a situation any responsible licensed weapon carrying person would have the fortitude to stop a violent crime if they could without injuring an innocent bystander. Doing so would be the reason for having the license to carry to begin with.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

I researched their numbers a couple of years ago. Justifiable homicides are included in the count, as are motor vehicle crash deaths that were totally unrelated to their carry permit. Elderly folks with permits who peacefully ended their own suffering by ceasing to take medications were among the suicides counted. Even most of the firearms related criminal acts were unrelated to the permit, such as a domestic murder-suicide that occured in the dwelling shared by the decedants. The study is crap.

 

[bushmaster1313]

I do not have any empirical proof, but common sense tells me that persons contemplating committing murder are quite unlikely to send their photograph and fingerprints to the Police along with an application for permission to keep a gun in their pocket.