CCW holder 1, Thug 0

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Dr Tad, you just stepped on one of my hot buttons here. :cuss:

I will say this.

I grew up in a tavern. The day I picked up my first drink was very close to the day I was no longer a child and started to become a man.

Leaving the child and thier toy/play ways behind and started to do adult things.

Sometimes bad adult things.

Just a child my arse. Ive seen some 14 year old girls that have been... grown up rapidly in the streets up there in Jersey and they will gut a man faster than any much older (And slower) witch.

Imagine after this child grows up and lives life a little bit for a few decades. Oh no..

Just a child aint gonna wash with me. If someone has a gun and wants to commit a adult crime...so be it.
 
CRDNLPLT: "Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and not call him an alcoholic...he may have just been there because the judge ordered him to attend after a receiving a dui."

Actually, plenty of people attend AA meetings who aren't necessarily "in the program." I once was paid to attend a series of meetings -- solely to confirm that the son of a client had attended. I felt sort of sneaky, but the son was fully aware of the arrangement. I tried to explain to the client that there were other less "cloak and dagger" means of confirming his attendance, but the client seemed to view AA as some sort of secret society ... which in a way I suppose it is.
 
AA is not secret. They quietly advertise in a small ad in the town news paper weekly. Anyone who wants AA can simply show up.

Most dont... sadly.. until something happens and they are consumed by the courts.
 
HS

My comment was a sarcastic parody on the Brady Bunch and leftists always classifying 18 and 19 year old gangbangers as "children". Sorry it didn't come through as such. :p
 
Recent developments discuss age and ....

The four pirates who attacked the Alabama were between 17 and 19 years old, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said.

"Untrained teenagers with heavy weapons," Gates told students and faculty at the Marine Corps War College. "Everybody in the room knows the consequences of that."
Not that I or others would consider .25 a heavy, but the result is the same. If you act like an adult pirate, robber or felon (in general) there is the potential that there is an armed citizen out there prepared to dissuade you from your illegal, immoral and sinful acts. Wish that were the case here in ill-inoize. Where only the criminals are carrying. The elected and the at will kind.:cuss:
 
I think he deserved to be shot, even if he intended not to shoot anyone. In that situation you can't under estimate the 18 year old just because of his age. I think everybody agrees that it was the right thing to do because it puts you in a life and death situation.
 
Don't take your guns to town son, Leave your guns at home Will, Don't take your guns to town. Sounds to me that he made the choice to be a man.
 
Boo Birds, heeeeellllllllllllllllooooo, where are you?
They don't have a problem with this one because it all came out perfectly. Because hindsight is 20/20 they'll always go on and on about how someone did the wrong--based on news stories they have the privilege of reading at their leisure from their living room.
 
AA is not even close to secretive. We have a family member who goes to at least one meeting in our area every time he visits us, the meeting locations and times are listed on the internet. Most of the meetings around here are at church buildings.

Moreover, in NC, it is illegal to carry concealed "In areas of assemblies", which it could be argued that an AA meeting is an "assembly". :fire:

So what we now have is an internet list of times and locations that thugs can see when and where they can find people who will welcome them with open arms even if they are a stranger to the group, people that have at least a few bucks on them, and assuming they are law abiding, people who are not CCing because they are at an "assembly" :banghead:. And there's not going to be security or anything else like that most of these places. Or very many people. Not exactly an ideal situation. End rant :cuss:
 
Thugs from New Jersey don't realize people in other states carry guns, they think every state is like New Jersey, where the populace is at their mercy. He got what was coming to him, trying to rob people at an AA meeting no less !
 
With all the waves of immigration that washes over this great Nation, there is a bit of backwater slack in a place called Jersey.

Sorry, just has to say it.

Now. Take a Jersey person and place him into... Kingman Arizona and man... whole other world.
 
I've been robbed at gunpoint twice. Both times, I could have smoked them if I had been allowed to carry. I say good for the CHL holder. Screw the criminal and everyone like him.
 
Interview
http://www.thestate.com/crime/story/751469.html

The man who shot to death a gun-wielding would-be robber Saturday night at a Five Points Alcoholics Anonymous gathering spot is a well-known local attorney and an AA member who says he’d do it again in similar circumstances.

“I had two choices — maybe get killed and robbed — and I’m not sure what might have happened to the other people with me — or draw my weapon and fire,” said Jim, 61, who spoke to The State in his law offices Wednesday afternoon.

Jim admitted he was the man who fired the gun Saturday night. He asked that his last name not be used until any retaliatory threats against him can be assessed. Police say the possibility of retribution might exist but refuse to be specific.

Since the shooting of Kayson Helms, 18, of Edison, N.J., Saturday night, police have kept Jim’s name secret and released only a sketchy account of what happened when a young man entered the AA center near USC, brandished a gun and demanded money from what Jim said was a group of four people.

Wednesday, in a 90-minute interview at his law office, Jim recounted — in second-by-second detail — how the shooting took place. He showed a reporter a .32- caliber Kel-Tec semi-automatic he said was similar to the one he drew from a rear pocket and used to shoot Helms.

“Police asked me the question, ‘Were you afraid?’ I was concerned. There wasn’t time to be afraid. Till afterwards.”

Seeing the assailant’s gun, he said, he knew he had to take action. “I didn’t want him to get a chance to fire. I didn’t know what he was going to do. He didn’t say, ‘This is a stickup — your money or your life.’ But if somebody presents a pistol, they’ve just said that.”

At the time, Jim’s tiny, black lightweight pistol, loaded with hollow-point bullets that flatten when they strike a body, creating more damage than regular bullets, was encased in a special wallet-style holster, he said.

A wallet holster is a squarish leather wallet holder with one hole for the gun barrel and another for the trigger. The holster both hides a pistol’s shape and allows a shooter to fire quickly.

Columbia police confiscated the .32-caliber gun he used, Jim said.

“I don’t think I did anything anybody else in the same circumstances wouldn’t have done. If I’d left my gun in the car, or at home, I might not be sitting here talking to you,” said Jim, who said he nearly always carries a gun and was carrying a two-shot concealed derringer during Wednesday’s interview.

He graduated from USC’s law school in the 1970s, has had a concealed weapons permit since the early 1980s and practices a variety of civil and criminal law. His voice is gravelly; he smokes three packs of cigarettes a day.

“I didn’t know whether he was going to open fire. He did point and swing his gun this way and that way. We had seven or eight people in the back room.” Those held at gunpoint were in the front room, according to Jim.

Columbia lawyers said Jim — at 6 feet, 3 inches, a big man with a full head of blondish-brown hair — has a good reputation.

“He’s a reputable member of the legal profession,” said Dick Harpootlian, a former 5th Circuit prosecutor. “I’ve tried cases with him and against him. I’m sure the folks down at the AA center Saturday night were glad he was packing heat.”

Jack Swerling, a noted Columbia criminal defense lawyer, said he has remained friends with Jim since they went to USC law school. “Jim’s really a good guy.”

Jim said the incident took “10 seconds, max” to unfold.

Shortly before 11 p.m. Saturday, Jim was sitting on a sofa in the lounge of the ACOA building, a meeting place for AA members since 1947, talking to a friend.

Jim is a self-described recovering alcoholic who describes alcoholism as a “cruel, cunning, baffling, powerful disease. The desire to drink goes away but comes back all the time.” He said he hasn’t taken a drink since 1981.

Saturday night, a young woman came in the front door, saying, “‘I don’t have money. I have money in the car,’” he said.

“I thought, Why’s she talking about money? Then this kid came around her and started off — ‘Get it up!’ You couldn’t see his gun at that point. He said, ‘Empty your pockets.’ Then I saw his gun.”

The gun was small and silver, and Jim said he knew right away it was a .22- or .25-caliber.

“I thought, Oy! That will hurt — .22s and .25s are very lethal. I wasn’t going to take a chance on him getting a shot off.”

One of the four people in the lounge started emptying his pockets onto the floor, Jim said.

At that point, Jim said, he was maybe six to eight feet from the gunman and had a clear shot across a coffee table. He drew.

“My first shot was dead center on his chest,” said Jim, who demonstrated how he gripped the wrist of his right gun hand with his left hand to steady his aim.

“With that, he kind of turned to his right, exposing his left side, and his gun arm went up. I’m pretty sure the second shot hit him in the stomach. With that, he did a 180 (a complete turn) and headed back toward the door, and I fired the third shot. I think that’s the one that hit him in the neck.

“I thought I fired a fourth shot. But they (police) only found three spent casings. ..... In the stress, I thought I fired four.”

Jim said he never was able to count the number of bullets remaining in his Kel-Tec because police took his weapon. The gun holds seven rounds, but Jim only loads six.

The assailant “disappeared out the door,” and, according to police, made his way up a walkway, across railroad tracks toward Laurens Street, where he collapsed.

Jim called 9-1-1, gave them his name, said he had a concealed weapons permit and that he had just shot an armed robber at the ACOA center on College Street.

Still talking to the dispatcher, Jim said, he went outside the building.

“I saw this white Lincoln pull up... .. It looked to me like a white guy in a white shirt got out and went up the walkway.”

Two minutes “at the most” elapsed between the time he dialed 9-1-1 and the time police arrived, Jim said. The Lincoln vanished. But a distraught young woman remained near the fallen man, he said.

Jim said police no doubt told the media earlier this week that his life was in danger because of “all the unanswered questions about the shooting.”

For one thing, Jim said, there was the vanished Lincoln. Then, the distraught woman could have been Helms’ “girlfriend. .... She was sobbing and crying near the body, and police took her into custody,” he said.

“I’m not sure whether there is a threat. I just find it weird that some guy from Edison, New Jersey .... would be in Columbia, South Carolina and trying to rob people.”

Columbia police have declined to release details, including any information about Helms, saying they are investigating. Prosecutors have not said whether they will charge Jim.

One resident of the nearby University Neighborhood, Bud Ferrillo, who owns a Columbia public-relations firm, confirmed some of Jim’s descriptions of the scene.

Ferrillo said he heard three shots in quick succession. Within a minute, he was watching events unfold from a close vantage point.

He said he saw a distraught woman crying loudly near the body on the walkway. Ferillo said police got to the scene within a minute or two.

Ferrillo said police asked who had “the gun” and saw a man fitting Jim’s description raise his hands.

Jim said he when he first got a concealed weapons permit, he had a need for it but declined to give details. He also declined to say whether he had ever fired at a person before.

These days, he said, he carries a concealed pistol “because at this point, I feel almost undressed without it. I don’t have a problem leaving it in a car when I go to church or into the courthouse. I can live with that.”

He has rehearsed shooting scenarios in his mind. “Have I ever thought about such a scenario before? Sure. Everybody who carries a gun has thought about it.”

Yet, it still came as a surprise to have to fire Saturday, he said. “That was the last thing on my mind that night.”

Jim shook his head. Violence is everywhere, he said.

“I did what I had to do, that’s the way I see it. And under the laws we have in place, I think I’m immune from civil or criminal prosecution. I’d do it again, if the same circumstances arose... .

“I’m just sorry the whole incident occurred. I would have preferred he not come in... .

“I’m okay with this. Sorry I had to do it. It wasn’t something I wanted to do. But you do what you’ve got to do.”
 
Boo Birds, ooooooohhhhhhhhhhh Boo Birds, come out, come out wherever you are. :eek:

Where are all the Monday morning quarterbacks? Where are all the comments about a watch and wallet not being worth it?

I'm not sure if it more pathetic, ridiculous, or hypocritical, but it is entertaining to see their "absence" on this one. ;)
 
Followup - http://www.thestate.com/157/story/822525.html?storylink=omni_popular

Man cleared in AA club shooting in Five Points
Gun was fired in self-defense, solicitor says
By JOHN MONK
[email protected]

The man who shot and killed an armed robber in April at a Five Points club for Alcoholics Anonymous members acted in justifiable self-defense, 5th Circuit Solicitor Barney Giese has ruled.

“It’s as clear a case as I’ve seen,” Giese said Wednesday. He has been the circuit’s top prosecutor for 14 years.

The decision means no charges will be filed.

Giese identified the man he cleared as James Corley, 61, a prominent Columbia lawyer.

Corley, a USC law school graduate, is a licensed concealed weapons permit holder and self-described recovering alcoholic who hasn’t taken a drink since 1981.

On April 11, Corley shot and killed Kayson Helms, 18, of Edison, N.J., not only to protect himself, but also to protect others on whom Helms had pulled a .25-caliber pistol, Giese said.

Helms entered the club, called the ACOA Club, with his gun drawn. When Corley rose from sitting on a couch, drew his gun from a back pocket and fired, Helms had already taken a cell phone at gunpoint from one AA member, so it was an actual — not attempted — armed robbery, Giese said.

Although The State published an interview with Corley days after the shooting, the newspaper identified him only as “Jim” because Columbia police said there was a possibility of retribution against him. They refused to be more specific.

Giese said Wednesday he found no evidence of any threat against Corley in the 140-page police file of witness interviews and other evidence.

Giese said it is appropriate to disclose Corley’s identity.

“When a life is taken in a public place, it’s a serious matter. The public has a right to know all the facts,” Giese said.

Corley said later Wednesday he had no doubt he would be cleared — sooner or later.

“You would have a hard time finding a jury that would convict,” he said, adding he has no second thoughts. “I haven’t lost any sleep at all over it.”

Corley said he thinks he did exactly what he should have.

“I suspect they will use it as a textbook example in concealed weapons courses of a good, clean, legitimate shoot,” he said.

Corley declined to allow a photographer from The State to take his photo, but not for fear of retribution. As a lawyer who handles divorces, he sometimes is harassed by angry spouses, he said, and a photo would make their job easier.

Giese explained his thinking this way:

First, Corley and the others did nothing to provoke Helms’ actions.

And Helms was clearly a robber pointing a gun at people, including Corley, causing them to fear for their lives.

“At that point, he is entitled to use deadly force under our law,” said Giese. “He had a right to defend himself and the others.”

Moreover, Giese said, in incidents in which robbers hold up people in enclosed areas, like the ACOA club, they can end up executing everyone — as in the 1996 slayings of two people at Kelly’s Barbershop on Assembly Street.

“These kind of cases can get out of hand,” Giese said.

Statements police took from the three witnesses just after the shooting and reviewed Wednesday by The State supported Giese’s version of events.

“I believed he may have saved our lives,” Jason, 27, an AA member sitting next to Corley on a couch at the time of the shooting, told police. (AA members, seeking privacy, do not use last names.)

Another witness, Willie, 56, said the robber first pointed his pistol at him, then at Corley. Corley fired when the robber was aiming the gun at Corley’s chest, Willie told police.

Willie said he feared for his life. “I was glad Mr. Jim had a gun.”

The third and only other witness, Kathleen, 27, said Corley acted appropriately. “I was very relieved he was there.”

Giese’s decision was consistent with a March ruling in which Lexington County law officers cleared a pizza deliveryman, Christopher Miller, 43, who shot a 17-year-old robber to death while making a delivery.

In that case, the robber was unarmed but beating on Miller, who was retreating, police said. Miller told police that when he saw the robber’s three accomplices advancing, he shot twice, killing the first attacker.

Dick Harpootlian, Giese’s predecessor as 5th Circuit solicitor, said given what he knows about the Corley case, he would have made the same decision.

Corley said he would like police to return his gun — a .32-caliber Kel-Tec semi -automatic.

Efforts to reach Police Chief Tandy Carter for comment Thursday weren’t successful.

Giese said he sees no objection to police returning Corley’s gun.

Meanwhile, Corley said, he’s carrying a spare gun these days — concealed, of course.

“Before, I just carried a gun because I felt undressed if I didn’t have it,” he said. “Now, after this, you never know what’s going to happen.

“I’m not looking for a situation to shoot somebody; I don’t want to be the one getting shot.”

Reach Monk at (803) 771-8344.

Additionally - http://www.thestate.com/crime/story/824052.html

Five Points shooter will get his gun back

Columbia police chief Tandy Carter said Thursday the man who shot and killed a robber in the April 11 incident at the Five Points club for AA members can have his gun back.

James Corley, 61, a Columbia lawyer, was cleared Wednesday of the possibility of facing any criminal charges as a result of the shooting.

Police had confiscated Corley’s gun, a .32-caliber Kel-Tec, after the shooting and hadn’t returned it.

Now that 5th Circuit Solicitor Barney Giese has ruled Corley used justifiable self-defense to defend himself and others against the robber, Corley can have his weapon back, Carter said.

Giese said “overwhelming” evidence and eye witness testimony showed the Kayson Helms, 18, of Edison, N.J., was robbing people at gunpoint at the Alcoholics Anonymous club when Corley drew his gun and fired, killing Helms.
 
This has me thinking about when you fill out your CCW permit application? I know in Maine, it asks if you have any drug addition problems.

Is alchohol addiction the same?
 
Given the guy hasn't had a drink since 1981, I would think he could legitamately answer no to any question about having an alcohol problem
 
Thats a good point, and I was not trying to imply that the guy should not carry. It was just a thought.

I imagine a lot of folks (Dont get mad, but I am going to say women....) are treated for depression, or anxiety but are not mentally ill.
 
re alcohol and addiction issues--

The two kinds of drugs--i.e., alcohol is a drug--are treated similarly here in MN.

The issue is simply whether or not one has been adjuticated for treatment. If you have, you have to report it--and the issue must be considered by the sherrif / issuing department, but IIRC it does not necessarily disqualify you unless you are not maintaining abstinence.

My own experience with this topic is what follows--

I voluntarily went through treatment in '84 (no recidivism, and no LE history, ever) for alcoholism. About '94 or so I sought a may-issue carry permit, at that time issued by my local PD. I discussed the issue with my PD chief--and a permit was issued. It wasn't codified, IIRC, in that law. Later I let that license lapse.

In 2007, after the legislation for our shall-issue license was passed, the question (like on a 4473) remained in for our FID application and for the shall-carry permit. The FID issuer was our local PD--and in reviewing it with him, it was determined I did not need to officially state this (medical) history as it had been a voluntary treatment. Nonetheless, I did formally reveal it (i.e., on the form) with him--and the FID was issued promptly (within the ten-day legal time-frame). I also listed this treatment on the shall-carry application, simply because I had listed it on the may-carry permit from years before, and I knew they would be checking those records.

The issuing department for shall-carry is the County Sherrif, not the local PD. In due time--Hennepin Co. takes the full thirty days--my shall-carry permit was issued.

Minnesota has reasonably-enlightened attitudes about (alcoholism) treatment and sobriety. It's ironic that the same antigun people so accepting of personal transgressions (such as alcoholism) in their legislative functions are the ones that, in some states, write laws far more stringent that in Minnesota. IOW, without national / federal basics for carry permits, we do not have a uniform approach.

I was glad to hear of the no-bill in this situation--for obviously personal reasons.

Jim H.
 
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