CCW holder alledged to have made a fatal tactical error

[Pocket Rocket]

One interesting point about the comment "I can do that in Texas". Both OC and CC are legal in Nevada but I believe Texas does not allow printing. Beyond that, even if an establishment in Nevada has a "No Firearms" sign, there are no criminal penalties for doing so. You can be asked to leave at that point, however.

 

[janedoedad]

The below is taken from another forum:


Hey folks, I just joined after reading on here for several months. Long story short, I'll be following this case as it unfolds:
http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-did-not-pu ... 79344.html
The man involved is the West Point buddy of one of my best friends. He was shot by the police at Costco in a nice suburb of Vegas this weekend. At first my concern was that he was kind of being trashed in media accounts and how easy it is for a guy to be portrayed as the "bad guy". Lately, I'm trying to put myself in the cops shoes and see how this could happen.

In a nutshell, Erik Scott was at Costco buying a bunch of stuff as he was moving in with his girlfriend. He was trying out a backpack of some sort by putting a bunch of water bottles in it and caught the attention of Costco security who spotted his holstered gun under a button down he was wearing. He talked with them and told them he had a license, was ex-military, etc. and that he would be out of there in 20 minutes. Costco called the cops and said a guy was opening things in the aisle and had a gun. The cops hear this and it gets worked into a guy going "beserk" and "destroying merchandise". Three cops and a helicopter are sent and they are prepped for the worst.

Costco evacuates everyone in the store saying there is some kind of emergency and Erik walks out with them - confused as to what is causing all of the commotion. When he is confronted by the cops at the exit door all drawn down on him he tries to explain that he has a license, says "don't shoot", etc. Lots of yelling is going on "Get down", "Hands up", "Stop", "Drop the gun". His girlfriend is yelling as well. He does not drop and tries to explain that he is "legit" and slowly raises his shirt to take the holstered gun off of his belt and "drop it" as commanded. He was immediately shot in front of his girlfriend and many, many customers who were all right around.

I don't really know what to think of it. I can see the cops point of view, and I can see it from my friend's point of view that they shot early. Maybe you guys can learn something from it. For me it reiterates what several have said which is don't ever reach for the gun. If the police want to disarm you, let them do it. Don't go reaching anywhere near. I know a lot of folks talk tough about what they would do in these situations, but I think the way Erik's situation unfolded the only way for him to come out alive would have been immediately dropping to the ground with hands out far...

Hopefully chatting with you folks about it will help me make some sense of it. I feel real bad for everyone involved from the family/friends, to the cops (one is now on his second fatal shooting in 2 years - two were rookies), to the customers who had to go through it as well.

 

[Zack]

CCW holder alledged to have made a fatal tactical error

Where does it say below he was a ccw holder? a "tactical error" ? what!? mall ninja?

Published Saturday, July 10, 2010 | 1:55 p.m.

Updated Saturday, July 10, 2010 | 7:12 p.m.

Summerlin Costco Shooting
Shooting location
Map data ©2010 - Terms of UseA man walked into a busy Costco store in Summerlin armed with two guns Saturday afternoon, eventually pulling out a weapon and prompting Metro Police to fatally shoot the gunman.

Police Capt. Patrick Neville said Costco security personnel called police at 12:47 p.m. after the man began destroying merchandise in the store. After the call, store security noticed the man had a gun and began to evacuate the business, Neville said.

The store is at 801 S. Pavilion Center Drive, which is near the Charleston Boulevard and Las Vegas Beltway interchange. The business was mostly evacuated when officers arrived.

Police approached the man just outside Costco's front doors near a display of tires.

Neville said an officer tapped the man on the shoulder. The man turned around and the officer saw a gun in the man's waistband, police said.

The officer ordered the man to the ground, but the gunman refused, police said. Neville said the gunman then pulled out the gun in his waistband, prompting three officers to fire multiple shots.

The man was taken to University Medical Center, where he later died.

At the hospital, medical personnel discovered a second gun on the man. Both were semi-automatic handguns.

Neville estimated about 20 people were in the vicinity when the shooting occurred. No one else was injured during the incident.

The man was described as white, about 6-foot-1-inch tall and 190 pounds. He was in his 30s or 40s, police said. His name will be released by the Clark County Coroner's Office.

Neville credited Costco security officials with possibly helping to avoid a more serious incident from taking place.

"Through Costco taking some proactive measures here, that probably stemmed a lot of problems," he said.

Costco was closed Saturday while officers continued their investigation. Authorities interviewed several witnesses to the shooting.

The officers who fired will be placed on paid administrative leave during an investigation, which is standard procedure in officer-involved shootings.

 

[zxcvbob]

When he is confronted by the cops at the exit door all drawn down on him he tries to explain that he has a license, says "don't shoot", etc. Lots of yelling is going on "Get down", "Hands up", "Stop", "Drop the gun". His girlfriend is yelling as well. He does not drop and tries to explain that he is "legit" and slowly raises his shirt to take the holstered gun off of his belt and "drop it" as commanded. He was immediately shot in front of his girlfriend and many, many customers who were all right around.

I don't really know what to think of it. I can see the cops point of view, and I can see it from my friend's point of view that they shot early. Maybe you guys can learn something from it. For me it reiterates what several have said which is don't ever reach for the gun. If the police want to disarm you, let them do it. Don't go reaching anywhere near. I know a lot of folks talk tough about what they would do in these situations, but I think the way Erik's situation unfolded the only way for him to come out alive would have been immediately dropping to the ground with hands out far...

If all this is true (I'm not really doubting you, just waiting for evidence to turn up, or evidence of a coverup), they were gonna shoot him no matter what he did. Best chance of survival IMHO is to slowing put your hands on top of your head and clasp your fingers and leave them there -- and hope they don't shoot you anyway for not following orders.

Hopefully the store video shows what really happened, and it doesn't mysteriously get lost or erased.

 

[digsigs226]

This sounds like a terrible situation all a round. The important thing is not to jump to any conclusions yet, as human witnesses don't always remember everything perfectly and tend to "fill in the gaps" after the fact. Security cameras don't lie.

There are some things that I think could of diffused the situation, and I hope they are incorporated into standard police training.

1. Have only one officer give clear, concise, and stern commands to the suspect at one time. Multiple officers shouting at the same time is not only hard to process, but creates an environment with a potential for conflicting commands. Following a command from one officer could be perceived as threatening to another expecting a different reaction from the suspect.

2. Unless the weapon is directly in hand, cops should never give the command to "drop the weapon" as one bystander reportedly heard. If the weapon is concealed or holstered, the weapon should ALWAYS be removed by the officers. The last thing you would want to have happen in this situation is for a previously un-brandished weapon to be brandished by the suspect. That is just an invitation to let the lead fly, which I think is what happened here.

 

[Oyeboten]

Good insight in that post you relay janedoedad...pretty much what I was imagining.


Hi Zack,


Your 'quote' sheds light on how a story may be told.


I found myself wondering if the "72 year old man" was a happenstance presence of a friend of one of the Police...or himself a retired Metro who saw fit to insert a leading testimony.

Or, who knows...

Stranger things have happened.

It would be interesting to know the content of the 911 Tapes of when the Costco employee called it in.

"Some guy with a gun tearing open merchandise..." ?

These 911 tapes could also end up being part of a Cvilil Liability suit in which Costco is found to have un-necessarily overstated a condition, eventuating in the Police being primed with an inappropriate mindset leading to a wrongful death.

Just wondering anyway, in my thoughts...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Where does it say below he was a ccw holder?

It is mentioned in the video and in several news accounts.]]

 

[JW2]

I hope I'm not right, but if the police suspect that their officers acted inappropriately, my guess is that the video camera trained on the scene of the shooting was malfunctioning that day.

 

[benEzra]

One of the problems here is that they always tell you in state CHL classes to always obey police commands. In this case, some of the officers apparently commanded him to reach for his gun and drop it on the ground, and then other officers shot him when he obeyed and slowly lifted his shirt and reached for his gun.

I think as a CHL holder (or even as an off-duty officer), the wisest response would be to disobey any commands to reach for the weapon, and instead put your hands on your head, kneel slowly, whatever. Unfortunately that goes against the "always follow officer instructions" mantra, but in this case it probably would have saved his life.

It's also deeply disturbing that the story originally fed to the media was "after going beserk in the store and destroying merchandise, he drew a gun and pointed it at the officers, who had no choice but to return fire", etc. All of which now appears to be false.

Like JW2, I only hope that the surveillance video doesn't disappear due to mysterious camera malfunctions. If it turns out that the Costco employee exaggerated on the initial 911 call in order to get the police to come take the CHL holder down a few notches for idealogical reasons, then Costco could be on the hook for serious damages in a wrongful-death lawsuit, so both Costco and the police department may have a strong financial incentive to make sure some of those tapes disappear. I hope there are adequate safeguards in place to prevent that.

 

[hso]

Lot's of conjecture and lots of conflicting news stories and lots of conclusions being drawn without enough information.