Outnumbered justifies CCW use? I'd say so.

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BackwoodsFiero

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http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-death-07172007cn,0,7109910.story

An Easton man who police said was beaten in a June 28 melee in Palmerton that erupted over something being thrown at a car died late yesterday, police said.

Richard Higgins, 63, of 815 W. Wilkes-Barre St., was pronounced dead at 10:03 p.m. at Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest, where he had been on life support since the incident, the Lehigh County Coroner's Office said.

An autopsy will be done tomorrow to confirm the exact cause of death, the coroner's office said.



Officials said they initially charged Joseph A. Roscioli, 25, of Palmerton with aggravated assault and related charges in the incident and charged two 15-year-olds, both of Palmerton, and a Walnutport 17-year-old with related offenses. Investigators later determined one of the 15-year-olds was not involved, police said.

Police said Higgins apparently stopped his car at 8:30 p.m. June 28 in front of 295 Delaware Ave., Palmerton, after he believed it was hit with something thrown by one of those charged, police said. The men then beat him severely, leaving him in critical condition.

Palmeron police said the initial charges may be amended after they consult with the Carbon County District Attorney's office. District Attorney Gary Dobias was away Tuesday and efforts to reach him for comment were unsuccessful.

Palmerton police and the coroner's office are investigating.

-- Reporting by Bob Laylo, The Morning Call
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Just another incident proving that just because an attacker, or in this case attackers, is/are not "armed" does not mean they are incapable of killing someone. Seals the deal in my mind that I'd be justified in shooting if ever seriously threatened with a beating, whether it be by a group or individual.
 
the current standard in most places for use of lethal force is "threat of death or serious bodily harm"

nobody ever said that they have to be using a tool. At the same time though, you can't just starting shooting anybody who punches you. There is a fine line.

Unfortunately, in court, proving that the line was crossed when there was no tool such as a knife or gun present - could be tough.

In this case it really does come down to the 'tis better to be judged than carried' saying.
 
Disparity of force

You would probably be okay using lethal force on the first two but once you even the playing field you would no longer have a disparity of force defense as a general rule of thumb. Stop the two most threatening and the 3rd will have probably gotten the message.
 
The gun is an equalizer. Use it as such.
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3 Unarmed men and little ol' me in a parking garage... Yeah probably have to say I would pull it. Now here is the dilemma, if they retreated IMMEDIATELY as I am pulling it the principle of shooting would be a tad different story and of course would not obviously shoot.

As they are un-armed, I am outnumbered BUT armed, my ROE would be to give them enough time to understand the situation (unless they make the decision themselves). The biggest reason would be that I am armed and they are not and most areas these days are under video survellience (not monitored but the tapes are pulled). I would rather have tapes showing the judge, while my attorney is explaining to the jury, me "attempting to" fend off three men and had to fire as a last resort. Of course this is all hypothetical but as a CCWer you have to be ready for anything and ready to shoot at a moments notice.

But seriously if I have to pull it its going to be shot. I just want to ensure that I use every possible advantage in my favor that I am able to :D
 
You also have the age thing comming into play here. The guy was 63, his attackers 25,17,2-15 year olds. Three maybe four attackers, all younger, all most likely in far better shape than he.. Only fault on his part was the stopping, 911 may have been the better choice.
Be safe.
 
You would probably be okay using lethal force on the first two but once you even the playing field you would no longer have a disparity of force defense as a general rule of thumb. Stop the two most threatening and the 3rd will have probably gotten the message.
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I hope you're not suggesting that you'd be justified shooting the first 2 attackers, that you'd have reholster and fist fight the third one since there's no long a disparity of forces.

Agreed that by that time the third guy probably will be running away, but if he doesn't, and continues to attack/threaten, he's fair game to be shot.

If he's not running, I will assume there's some reason for it (like he has a weapon I don't know about, or there are additional attackers he's relying on, or he's just so high on drugs/alcohol/whatever) and I'm justified with continuing to use lethal force to defend myself.
 
IMHO a look at the bigger picture is in order here. From the nooz report:

Police said Higgins apparently stopped his car at 8:30 p.m. June 28 in front of 295 Delaware Ave., Palmerton, after he believed it was hit with something thrown by one of those charged, police said. The men then beat him severely, leaving him in critical condition.

It has been said that there are more volunteers than victims. Higgins was a volunteer IMO, unfortunately for him. He was driving a car- a multiton combination weapon and escape pod. He failed to use the biggest resource at his disposal. And he paid the ultimate price for that.

He stopped the car, which was apparently not incapacitated in the incident. He exited the car.

Bad moves, both of them.

The "Michelin Defense" was more in order here IMHO. Just as the "Nike Defense" is 'Run away, run away,' the Michelin Defense is 'Drive away, drive away.' A bit of body work on a car is cheap by comparison with hospital bills, lawyer fees- or funerals.

In a perfect world it would not be necessary to deal with street thugs who abuse passersby. But this is not a perfect world. Not every problem is best handled by a mano-a-mano confrontation, in fact few of them are. Far better to swallow a little pride and get your car fixed later than to suffer as Higgins did. Or pop a cap in some thug wannabe and then have to become grist for the legal mill as a result.

Stay safe, y'all-

lpl/nc
 
IIRC, the courts have held special presumptions for mobs and arsonists.

They've held that a mob is a lethal weapon in and of itself, under the disparity of force principle.

Furthermore, all members of the mob are fair targets, not merely those who are nearest or most threatening.

Similarly, arson is presumed to be a lethal attack, and so the use of lethal force to prevent arson is generally accepted. People bearing molotov cocktails, especially when lit are fair targets, and possible also those bearing lit torches.
 
Bernie Goetz learned that lesson.
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The jury cleared Goetz on his use of force in 30 minutes, and spent the rest of their time trying to figure out how to get him off the gun charge. Too bad they never heard of jury nullification.
 
It cracks me up that we have people on here that are questioning the use of lethal force in regards to this scenario.

My car has been hit by snowballs, water balloons, and a pear into the windshield (shattered the windshield and scared the crap out of me). I stopped at each incident and I caught the little peckers that were throwing the pears.

If in any of those situations they had escalated to violence, although I didn't carry at those times, depending on the numbers, size, ages, and intent of the vandals, I would not have hesitated to present my firearm and use it if I had carried one and needed it.

With our society the way it is, I get sick and tired of the opinions that we should all just be victims and let whatever happens happen.

I.E.
He stopped the car, which was apparently not incapacitated in the incident. He exited the car.

Bad moves, both of them.

The "Michelin Defense" was more in order here IMHO. Just as the "Nike Defense" is 'Run away, run away,' the Michelin Defense is 'Drive away, drive away.' A bit of body work on a car is cheap by comparison with hospital bills, lawyer fees- or funerals.
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While I'm not advocating any particular action, I don't know how we can fault a guy for getting out to investigate what happened to his car, then gets the crap beat out of him, and finally ends up dying. It is a sick world we live in and it bothers me that we would second guess a guy for taking the actions he did.

Obviously this is a sad story, but if he had been armed, I'm pretty sure there would have been a different ending to it. Remember that in the large majority of defensive uses of firearms, usually the gun isn't even fired, it is simply presented and people wise up quickly and figure it isn't worth proceeding and getting shot.

Just my two cents, and I know that we have lawyers and crazy jurors to thank for the state of affairs we are in when we use our firearms, but still, at what point do we say, "enough is enough".
 
.

Be the first to call 911 after the incident ?

Be safe ?

I believe Public Enemy said it best "911 is a joke" and by not stopping
and/or saying something, you are perpetuating the behavior.
 
Be the first to call 911 after the incident ?
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Yep. The last thing you want is for THE PERP to call 911 and report "some crazy guy brandishing a gun".
 
Oh, I'm not questioning the use of lethal force in a legitimate disparity of force situation.

What I am questioning is the wisdom of getting into a situation like that in the first place, when it's avoidable by just driving away.

If your testosterone level is such that you cannot allow any such afront to your dignity (or your car's dignity) to go unchallenged, then by all means screech to a stop, bail out and engage the perpetrators at whatever level you like.

But do yourself a favor first. Go spend a few days sitting in a courtroom in your state's equivalent of superior court, where felonious activity gets tried. They don't charge admission, or even tuition. Listen and learn for a while before you get yourself in a situation where it's YOU playing the star role as defendant (and footing the bill for a legal team of your own).

It might change your attitude a bit about engaging in what some states define legally as mutual combat... and keep you from being the poster child for "Enough is enough."

Stay safe,

lpl/nc
 
Oh, I'm not questioning the use of lethal force in a legitimate disparity of force situation.

What I am questioning is the wisdom of getting into a situation like that in the first place, when it's avoidable by just driving away.

If your testosterone level is such that you cannot allow any such afront to your dignity (or your car's dignity) to go unchallenged, then by all means screech to a stop, bail out and engage the perpetrators at whatever level you like.
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While I agree with you to a point, I really wouldn't consider my car being vandalized as an afront to my dignity or manhood. I know I wouldn't tuck my tail between my legs while my eyes welled up with tears on the drive home.

Some people may not care if their property is vandalized, others do. I will confront people that show no respect for me, my family, my friends, or my property. That doesn't mean I can't wait to show my manhood and draw a gun to show them who is boss, what that means is there is a certain amount of respect that is called for in this world. Punks that are vandalizing property obviously missed those lessons and I would hope more people would take a stand rather than run like a bat out of hell. I don't necessarily believe that to be provoking violence, but you may differ.
 
I just want to throw this out there to think about. In spring 2005, a guy in PA was jumped by a mob of drunken teens in a Wawa parking lot. (like a 7-11) He had a CCW and ended up shooting a kid. Seems like it would be a simple case of self-defense.

Nope. It was not simple. This guy faced two years of hell and thousands in legal fees. I am not sure if he got sued in civil court or not. Sure he beat the criminal case but he paid a heavy price.

The point is if you get attacked by a group of teens and decide to shoot your way out, don't expect to be bragging about it that night on THR... in most cases you're facing criminal and civil charges, the community calling you a murderer, and all types of harassment. Not what some of you want to hear but its the way the world works.

http://www.kyw1060.com/pages/42301.php?

A Bucks County grand jury has cleared a Philadelphia man in connection with a deadly shooting last year in the parking lot of a Bensalem, Pa. convenience store.

The grand jury report finds that 25-year-old Randy Dillon was clearly defending himself when he was attacked by eight teens outside the Wawa store on Route 1, in the early morning hours of Easter Sunday, 2005.

District attorney Diane Gibbons says the teens had been drinking at a hotel across the street before assaulting Dillon, who was legally allowed to carry the gun he used. She outlines the grand jury's additional findings:

"That the eight individuals in the parking lot -- including Matthew Taylor, the deceased; including Alex Ryzinski, who was shot in the parking lot -- are not the victims of any crime. That members of that group were the physical aggressors.”

The grand jury found that Dillon fired three warning shots and the attackers still didn’t back off. The report finds that the shot that killed Taylor was fired while Dillon was on the ground being punched and kicked.

DA Gibbons adds that she intends to pursue charges in connection with the underage drinking.
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camslam,

I don't necessarily believe that to be provoking violence, but you may differ.

What you apparently have yet to discover in life is that what I believe- or even surprisingly enough, what YOU believe- matters not at all where the legal system is concerned.

What the responding officers believe matters a LOT more than what either you or I believe. What the investigating detectives believe matters a LOT more than what you or I believe. What the DA believes matters a LOT more than what you or I believe. And ultimately what the judge and jury believe matters a LOT more than what you or I believe.

And what ANY of those people believe might not have one single solitary thing whatsover to do with the truth of the situation.

The legal system is an industry. It is always looking for raw material to process. As far as I can tell, you are busily volunteering to be that raw material. All I can say is, good luck with it.

IF you're actually interested in learning something useful, go read http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . Otherwise, you might want to set up an account with the folks at http://www.prepaidlegal.com/newCorp2/about_us/about_us.html .

lpl/nc
 
Ken,

Oh how I wish that Skip's lecture with accompanying slide show had been captured somehow and could be replayed on the web. I know he did it at Tom Given's place and at the Glock Summit, but probably only a hundred people or so saw it at those two venues. It's a priceless block of training IMHO. It would serve well to keep a lot of people who don't yet understand the legal system out of its clutches, if everyone interested in CCW could see it.

But there are two ways to learn- from the experience of others, or by making the mistakes yourself. Some people are only impressed by the experential route, apparently. All I can say is that I wish them much luck, having already spent more time in various courtrooms than I care to add to.

Regards,

lpl/nc (still nagging my wife to call you, btw)
 
I'm certainly not trying to place any blame on the victim, but you have to question the wisdom of a 63 year old man getting out of the car and confronting four young guys in a strange neighborhood. I'd be pissed off if someone threw something at my car too, but at the very least I'd see who did it and how many of them there were first before charging out to grab the guy and/or to confront them. More than likely I wouldn't exit the vehicle at all now, it just isn't worth it to me.

Alot of times teenagers will do something like this and when they're confronted they don't want to back down in front of their buddies because they don't want to look like a punk so it turns into something it's not, a deadly encounter where someone loses their life over pride.

I've had something like this happen 8 or 9 years ago when two laughing teenagers dressed in hip hop attire threw some piece of fruit (I think it was a peach) at my windshield and it splattered all over the place obstructing my view of the road. I got out and set them straight verbally and when one of them reached inside his jacket I pulled out my legally carried pistol and stuck it in both of their faces and then I backed up a little towards the other side of my car so I'd have some cover in case it turned out to be a gun. It turned out to be a walkman that had fallen out of an inside pocket of his jacket when he moved back as I was yelling in their faces and he was just trying to grab it before it hit the ground and broke.

I put my gun down at my side as soon as I realized that he wasn't grabbing a gun, I gave them a few more verbal morsels of wisdom to chew on about how stupid it was to throw something at someone's car and then I took off as I activated the windshield wipers so that I could actually see the road. After I got home I decided that getting out of my car was a really dumb move on my part and that it could have led to me shooting that guy or that they might have shot me as I exited the car if they were armed hard core gangbangers that didn't appreciate being yelled or cussed at. Right then and there I decided not to exit the car if something like that ever happened again. A dent or scratch in my car isn't worth going to prison for and it isn't worth killing someone for either.

That doesn't mean that I wouldn't get pissed off if someone threw something at my car, but to me it just isn't worth it and I have to decide what's more important to myself and my family. Next time I'll just call the cops on my cell phone, I'll give them a detailed description if I have one and be done with it. I haven't had anyone throw anything at my car since then and I'm glad, but I'm not likely to get out of my car again whether it happens again or not. In these days lawsuits filed by criminals over the use of force and the fact that law abiding citizens are sometimes going to get charged by overzealous prosecutors in some states with merely defending themselves in their own home means that we really have to watch it and decide what's worth it and what's not.

To me it's not worth it, I'd rather be around for my family and not spend the money on lawyers if I don't have to.
 
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