Outnumbered justifies CCW use? I'd say so.

[JohnKSa]

Some people may not care if their property is vandalized, others do.

Caring is one thing. Killing or getting killed over it is another.

I might go down the street a block or two and call the police, but I would not stop on the spot and initiate a confrontation.

I will confront people that show no respect for me, my family, my friends, or my property.

You will find that educating the world about how much respect they should show to the things & people that are important to you is an insurmountable task. If you persist in it, there's a very good chance we'll be seeing you on the news one day.

 

[tradosaurus]

Better to be tried by twelve

Than buried by six

You do what you have to do to stop the threat(s). If that means stopping all attackers then that is what you must do.

Of course dead men tell no tales.....

 

[camslam]

what YOU believe- matters not at all where the legal system is concerned.

What the responding officers believe matters a LOT more than what either you or I believe. What the investigating detectives believe matters a LOT more than what you or I believe. What the DA believes matters a LOT more than what you or I believe. And ultimately what the judge and jury believe matters a LOT more than what you or I believe.

And what ANY of those people believe might not have one single solitary thing whatsover to do with the truth of the situation.

The legal system is an industry. It is always looking for raw material to process.

Lee, you are absolutely right in regards to all of these points.

As far as I can tell, you are busily volunteering to be that raw material. All I can say is, good luck with it.

Obviously you don't know me, I don't know you and I will refrain from making any judgements about you. That being said, it is difficult, without writing a complete novel, to describe what any person would do in a given situation. I was merely commenting on a hypothetical of "what if" this gentlemen had access to a gun at the time of his beating. The issue that we seem to disagree on is putting oneself in situations where bad things can happen.

While I doubt there are many on this forum, and probably even fewer concealed carry permit holders that actually go out looking for opportunities to use their firearms, unfortunately as I'm sure you are aware, situations happen where the use of a firearm is called for. I would imagine my position of using my firearm as a last resort is much the same as many others on this forum.

We were simply commenting on whether or not multiple assailants constitutes a lethal situation and would it have been appropriate to use a firearm in this situation. None of us were there and so none of us will probably ever know. With the benefit of hindsight, I am able to say that yes it would have been appropriate given the fact the gentleman died. Did he put himself in a bad position? Yes. Was he prepared for what awaited him? No. The problem I had with your comment and others was the blame (possibly deserved) you were placing on this gentlemen without even being there. When my car was hit with a unripe pear, it literally shattered the windshield and sprayed glass all over myself and my friend. He also had a cut (not serious or fatal) on his forehead from the incident. While some would simply drive off and call the cops, we chose to investigate. Smart? Maybe, maybe not.

To sum this up. I hope that I am never in a situation where I have to use lethal force, but if me, my family, or some other innocent person is threatened in that manner, I plan to take appropriate action and I understand that I will have to deal with the consequences of those actions. It is a shame that our society has gotten to the point where the criminals are usually the better protected.

In these days lawsuits filed by criminals over the use of force and the fact that law abiding citizens are sometimes going to get charged by overzealous prosecutors in some states with merely defending themselves in their own home means that we really have to watch it and decide what's worth it and what's not.

To me it's not worth it, I'd rather be around for my family and not spend the money on lawyers if I don't have to.

Yet another sad and accurate assessment of our legal system. Each situation is different and that is why it is my hope that responsible gun owners will evaluate each situation and act appropriately. Sadly, sometimes, even many times, it doesn't pay to do the right thing. However that doesn't give us an excuse for not trying to do the right thing. (In my opinion)

 

[Fred Fuller]

Obviously you don't know me, I don't know you and I will refrain from making any judgements about you.

Not judgement. Just observation, limited as it necessarily is under these circumstances, and based on your previously posted statement:

I will confront people that show no respect for me, my family, my friends, or my property. That doesn't mean I can't wait to show my manhood and draw a gun to show them who is boss, what that means is there is a certain amount of respect that is called for in this world.

Situations DO happen where the use of a firearm is called for. I have no argument with you there. In fact I have no argument with you anywhere along the line- you live your life on your terms and it's none of my business how you do it.

But we are trying to analyze this tragic incident to learn some useful lessons from it (or at least IMO we should be, otherwise all this is an exercise in ghoulishness). Frankly if it had been me who turned out to be on the wrong end of a situation like this, I would hope that SOMEONE in a venue like THR would be analyzing the incident and seriously trying to learn from it, so as not to make whatever mistake or mistakes I had made. None of this is intended to be derogatory in any regard toward the deceased. Clearly not one of us here was on the scene of this incident, none of us know what was on the decedent's mind, what motivated him to do what he did or why he made whatever decisions he made.

All we know is the result. That is painfully clear at this point. That result is something none of us would wish to happen to ourselves or to any other innocent person who found themselves in the same sort of situation.

So the basic question remains, as I see it- how to AVOID having that same sort of thing happen to anyone else who finds themselves in the same situation?

It is my opinion that Skip Gochenour has pointed out the best possible way, in the lecture notes I referred to in a previous post. The ROE (rules of engagement) recommended there for plain ordinary citizens who carry guns legally are delineated as ADEE. That translates to:

Avoid
De-escalate, Disengage
Escape
Evade

Law enforcement officers are put in harm's way by their sworn oath. Armed citizens are not. LEOs have no choice about facing trouble. Armed citizens do. And so on almost ad infinitem.

Bottom line is, I am not a cop. I do not carry a badge. I have no full working shift of fellow cops ready to roll to my aid at one radio call. I have no city, county, state or federal government ready to stand behind me, provide me with a support structure, take care of my family, hire me a legal team and provide me with hospitalization and counseling. I'm on my own in all those respects.

Bottom line is, on the street and carrying a gun- which is what I do every day as a legally armed citizen, and have done for years now- I simply cannot afford an ego. I have to try my hardest to walk away from situations that I cannot afford to have escalate- and that means ANY situation that does not present itself from the getgo as a clear-cut absolute requirement for me to exercise lethal force.

Because no matter what sort of scrape I might get into, for whatever reasons, with whatever assailant or assailants, there IS a gun present, at least one- the one I am carrying. And I am determined that no one is going to get inside my head enough, rattle my cage enough, jerk my chain enough to make me use my gun unless there is absolutely no other option open to me.

You can throw a whole fruit stand at my car- I will still drive away if at all possible. Bottles and rocks, same deal. Even bullets for that matter. Obviously your mileage may vary here. As I said, it's your life and you are free to make your own decisions as to how you conduct it.

But I am NOT stopping a car that can still be driven on the street simply in order to go and see what just got tossed at said car, and to offer life lessons to the thrower(s) regarding proper respect for other people and their property. That isn't in my job description. If you want to set out to singlehandedly reform modern American society, I wish you luck- you'll need that, and more.

You say you will confront people. I say I won't, when I can find any possible way at all to avoid it.

That seems to me to be the crux of our difference of opinion here. If you have any further thoughts on the matter, I'd like to hear them.

lpl/nc

 

[camslam]

You say you will confront people. I say I won't, when I can find any possible way at all to avoid it.

That seems to me to be the crux of our difference of opinion here. If you have any further thoughts on the matter, I'd like to hear them.

I think you are right on. This is where you and I happen to differ in regards to our position on this. While I would agree with you on about 98% of what you have written, I will make the choice to confront people or situations when it is called for. I have tried to explain to you that there would be very limited situations where I believe it would lead to the use of a firearm for any reason, but nonetheless, I understand the consequences of taking actions and I do understand the need to not escalate things, especially when carrying a concealed weapon. Luckily for me I run about 6'7'' and 235 lbs and I'm in pretty good shape. Most people choose not to cause me problems, however I am also the type of person that when I see crap happening, I will usually do something about it. That could be something as small as people talking continually in a movie theater and I ask them to quiet down, to something as bad as grown men harrassing a woman or a younger kid and stepping in and asking them to knock it off. I don't consider myself the policeman for the world, nor do I consider myself a saint, but I know the difference between right and wrong and I believe far too many in our society are silent on things that matter.

Back to guns, every so often in these forums there is discussion (which is healthy and good) regarding "what if" scenarios. Last week there was a discussion on another forum about the 2 main camps when it comes to carrying a concealed weapon. They basically broke down into those that will defend their life and their families life, but will try to run, escape, or do whatever they possibly can before using their firearm. The other perspective was those that feel a greater obligation or duty to protect not just themselves and their families, but also society in general. These are the ones that will take action because they feel it is their duty to do so. While I won't judge anyone either way on that, I think you know which camp I would fall into.

Obviously there are liabilities, pros, cons, etc... regarding both trains of thought. In the end, for me it comes down to the following and hopefully we can agree to disagree and move on to new and exciting subjects.

1. Avoid a fight if at all possible.
2. If the fight is inevitable, end it as soon as possible.
3. Be prepared to live with the consequences of your actions.

In all seriousness, I am glad their are people like you and others that have commented on this particular thread, that care enough to put thought into what you would do given a particular situation.

Let's all hope we never have the need for our firearms.

 

[SteveS]

IF you're actually interested in learning something useful, go read http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...2_StudyDay.htm .

I can't believe this is the first time I have seen this. It has to be one of the better presentations I have seen on this subject and seems general enough to apply to every state. Thanks for posting it.

Just my two cents, and I know that we have lawyers and crazy jurors to thank for the state of affairs we are in when we use our firearms, but still, at what point do we say, "enough is enough".

Sorry, but I don't think this statement is even worth two cents. While lawyers and jurors certainly have an influence in this situation, blame should be placed on the legislature. They have either passed laws in regards to self-defense or have refused to do so and let case law set the standard.

 

[Browning]

Yet another sad and accurate assessment of our legal system. Each situation is different and that is why it is my hope that responsible gun owners will evaluate each situation and act appropriately. Sadly, sometimes, even many times, it doesn't pay to do the right thing. However that doesn't give us an excuse for not trying to do the right thing. (In my opinion)

Yeah, but as bad as it is it's worse in other countries.

At least here in the US we have the right to remain silent, if we don't have the money for a lawyer we'll get one for free and we're actually able to own firearms and able to carry them with very little hassle just so long as we meet some basic requirements.

So I guess we should be happy for what we do have, but it could always be better and the situation could always improve a little more. I just wish when they found some violent predator guilty without a shadow of a doubt then they'd give him or her the punishment that they deserve (life in prison without the possibility of parole or the death sentence).