CCW in church

[Rabbi]

I now go to a Presbyterian church where concealed carry is allowed and encouraged. G-d DEMANDS that we defend the precious life that He has given to us.

It's all about morality .......... not about denomination, diocese or synod.

We protect ourselves, our families and the innocent. Period.

We who can .............. DO !!!!!!

 

[evan price]

In Ohio you have to have permission to carry in church.

 

[1911 guy]

I carry in church.

My 1911 hides away nicely under a suit coat. Little old ladies never even know. My wife doesn't carry at church, she hasn't found a good way to stow away her Sig while wearing a dress. I know of at least two other people who carry at my church. Fellow in his mid fifties, cop. Totes a J-frame .38spl. My dad carries, too. He's the pastor.

 

[markdaniel]

I beleive God will take care of me. However that don't mean he wont use Glock to do it!

 

[tellner]

Just like the movie theater thread, what do you really believe the odds are? What are the tradeoffs? And if you're carrying in church do you really think you could get a good shot in a crowded room?

In a mosque it's a whole different thing. The Prophet Mohammed said that the virtue of a prayer is magnified five times if the Believer wears a sword to prayers. A (Muslim) friend of mine with an odd sense of humor would go to the Saudi-run mosque with the biggest shamshir he could find strapped to his hip. Saudis tend to pray bunched up close together. He'd stand right behind and to the left of the mullah with the loudest mouth and biggest beard.

 

[Ralph]

As Doc says its legal with permission here. My pastor is a retired LEO and encourages all who can to carry. We have 5 or 6 LEO active and retired as well as another dozen ccwers.

 

[GEM]

When was the last time a plague of locusts descended on a rampage shooter?

None of your pastor's business. In TX, the church must take deliberate action to ban carry. Unless the church in question has done such in whatever state we are talking about - carry away.

Do you ask the pastor if you have to wear underpants? No - not his or her business.

 

[pax]

tellner ~

Since carrying a gun is my default setting, I don't have to find a specific reason to carry any particular place. I look for reasons not to. In this case, I can find no reason at all not to carry.

Carrying at church is legal here. I'm every bit as capable of keeping the gun concealed when I'm at church as I am at the grocery store. And since we often run errands on the way home, or even spend the remainder of the day down in town, when I carry in church I don't have to leave my firearm vulnerable to theft in the car while I'm in church.

Of course, if your default setting is not to carry unless you feel particularly threatened, I can see where you might feel that carry at church would be paranoid of you. That's okay too -- it's your life, after all. Me, I carry wherever I go because my crystal ball has never been all that accurate.

And if you're carrying in church do you really think you could get a good shot in a crowded room?

Come to think of it, I think I've got a lot better chance of getting a good shot in a crowded room if I've got a gun than if I don't. I'd hate to be standing there going, "Dang! I've got a perfect shot... too bad I don't have my gun," while someone I loved was being murdered.

pax

 

[jcoiii]

I like to carry anywhere I think there could potentially be a bad guy

 

[tellner]

My default is not to be disarmed. Sometimes that means a gun. Sometimes it means some other tool. The particular choice is dictated by setting, circumstances and risk. If I'm going to be in a crowded place where there is a good chance I'd hit an innocent and it's a place where I'm statistically less likely to be around a violent crime - say a church or a school - I'm less inclined to choose a gun.

School shootings? Church rampages? They're so unlikely as to be nonexistent, so I don't take any particular precautions beyond the normal ones and am likely to be less heavily armed. Picking up money at a Western Union in a sketchy part of town? At least two self defense tools and a couple of well-armed friends.

I'm interested in real risks, not the stupid paranoid doctrine that states that if something is even theoretically possible it must be treated as a certainty (the "One Percent Doctrine"). Real benefits. Real risks. Real costs of the precautions. The risk of carrying a firearm in a place where it won't be welcome and the increased chance of hitting an innocent person weigh against having a gun. It has to be balanced against the real chance of having to use it.

 

[pax]

Real costs of the precautions. The risk of carrying a firearm in a place where it won't be welcome and the increased chance of hitting an innocent person weigh against having a gun. It has to be balanced against the real chance of having to use it.

Ummmm. Are you under the impression that if you carry a gun (someplace) and something happens, you must use the gun? Because only in such a case does your comment about the increased risk to bystanders hold up.

For me, it's about choices. If I've got a gun, I can choose to use it or to hold my fire. If I don't have a gun, I cannot choose to use a gun even if the situation clearly demands it.

From the rest of your comments, I think you might have an inflated sense of how welcome the gun is in other venues. It is no more welcome at the grocery store than it is at the church, and it is equally easy to conceal in either place. The risk -- of getting caught, or of frightening people if you do get caught -- is exactly the same.

pax

 

[tellner]

I said it clumsily, but here's the reasoning:

If I need to use a weapon I have to consider the consequences of that use including "Be sure of your target and what's beyond it." At one extreme, suppose I'm attacked by someone who is standing down with the targets at a rifle range. I'd feel perfectly comfortable blasting away with anything I could lay my hands on. If it were the Tokyo subway at rush hour I'd be sure of hitting at least three or four people with every shot, assuming the round would penetrate that far.

If I'm going to be in a crowd I'll take that into consideration when choosing self defense tools. If I think the increased risk of my personal safety is outweighed by the risk of killing innocent people in the same bad situation I might choose to go with something else. If the congregation consists of three pensioners, four families and a couple of pigeons that flew in and we're in a huge space the gun souds like a good idea. If it's High Holy Days and all the "twice a year Jews" are packed into the tiny synagogue I attend, then I'll stick with the knife and the cane.

 

[mp510]

A few years ago, the Brattelboro Vermont PD had their first line of duty shooting in something like 30 years in a church. Crazy guy from CT went wild with a knife. Ultimately, he was shot 6 times by 2 officers IIRC. HIs family said that he was just mentally ill, and should not have been killed for it....

But, back on point, church is not a safe haven from danger. BUt, some states do list places of worship as off limits, so you may need to look into that.

 

[FilJos]

I carry in church. My church is on Minneapolis' North side, which has seen a criminal tidal wave this year.

It may sound geeky, butI pick my pew tactically too. In my church the pews near the back and to the left of the aisle have good line of sight the entrances to the sanctuary and provide good cover due to a brick "Ushers closet" behind the last pew. It is hard to describe.

Sitting there I can detect anyone coming in to the sanctuary, I have few or no people in my line of fire towards the doors, and since I have the cover of the ushers room and am off to the side I would likely not be the first target if someone did barge in with murderous intent. Of course, there is the on-duty Minneapolis Police Sgt. who always sits in the Ushers Pew which is sort of in an alcove between the sanctuary doors and therefore actually behind the horizontal plane of the doors. I hope that either he would get the BG first, or at least surprise and distract him.

I used to carry a Glock 30 IWB, but I got sick of wearing Hawiian shirts to Church, and the butt always banged on the pew whenever I sat down. And being a Lutheran Church, there is a lot of standing up and sitting down.

Now I carry my Kahr PM40 either in a suit coat pocket, or front pants pocket if I am wearing something like pleated slacks or jeans (for the casual "contemporary" service.

I have no doubt that there are those who wish to do us harm, I just intend to help protect the flock. I consider the congregation my family, and if anyone wants to do harm to my family, I am going to take them down.

I like what the preacher in ""The Patriot" said "A shepherd must tend his flock. And at times... fight off the wolves."

 

[MD_Willington]

I was thinking the other day, that I should start carrying in church. I carry a Glock 21 .45ACP, and I think it would be fairly easy to conceal under a suit. But, i was wondering if it is the right thing to do (what if someone sees it), and should i let my minister know about it?

Q: Where else can some one hell bent on destroying as many people as possible go on a Sunday to complete their evil deed before doing themselves in via suicide by police force before Monday? (Quite a few people do kill themselves at the end of the weekend before Monday).


A: A house of worship, a shopping mall, or any place where large numbers of people gather where there is no armed guards etc...


IMHO CC should be observed by the congregation, I do attend Church with my family, and I'm always on the lookout, call me paranoid

 

[tuna]

Depending on the type of congregation you have, you may have to alter your carry style.
If your church is of the shake hands and that's it variety, carry however you want.
If your church is of the "huggy" variety, you'll need to consider carrying where a hug won't feel the gun, or modify your hug so that their arms don't go near the gun (carry on belt, go low in hug to make them go high).

Other than that, go for it, if legal and licensed.

 

[roo_ster]

I carry every time I go to church. Heck, I carry whenever I leave the house.

Usually, pocket carry does the trick for me, of the .357mag snubby persuasion.

 

[mljdeckard]

Interesting question,

I'm in Utah, and I am LDS, and the LDS church has requested that their members not carry to church. There was one incident, about ten years ago, in the western part of Salt Lake, where a woman's estranged husband came in to church, and dragged her out kicking and screaming. Some of our members used this as a battle cry to arm themselves in church. The Church leadership made a public statement, that "If our members feel the need to arm themselves in church, we would ask them to re-examine the reason they come in the first place."

We put a lot of emphasis on leaving the world at the door. For three hours a week, you go to forget about the things you worry about outside church.

Having said that, I don't go as often as I should. Brigham Young advised, when settlers were worried about natives attacking, "Pray always, but keep your powder dry." Most places I have lived, there were off-duty cops there who do carry. I do keep my CRKT full-size folder in my pocket, and my Kimber IS out in the car. I do feel a bit naked unarmed in church, but not enough to toss out faith in my church.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

the LDS church has requested that their members not carry to church.

If by "requested" you mean they have registered with the the Utah BCI making it unlawful to carry there, I guess you can say requested.

 

[Tokugawa]

Christmass eve service some years ago- all the dressed up and happy folks outside the nice upscale Lutheran church- twinkle twinkle starry night and all---
SKREECHHH!!!!! bam! car 1 pulls up to a stop sign- car 2 runs into the back of car 1. car one drives away, occupant of car 2 jumps out and throw a bottle thru the back window of car 1, screaming obscenities all the while. Car 1 stops, occupant exits and walks back to car 2. Car 2's occupant starts really getting excited when #1 pulls a weapon and says quite calmly, you are going to be shot if you keep this up. #2 crawls under his car and scurries around, screaming gibberish. # 1 then drives off. All this while the church goers are standing around. Me? I was looking for solid objects (a tree) to hide my kid behind.
And yes, I was glad to have a gun.

 

[Tokugawa]

PS-- was it not Jesus who suggested to Paul that he buy a sword? (don't hurt me if I got it wrong, my scripture isn't great and I no longer go to church.)

 

[foghornl]

Ask the congregation of the St. Stephens (St. Stevens?) A.M.E. church of Toldeo, OH.

January, 2005, 2 BG's interupted the service, held various children of the congregation hostage untill enough money and "easily convertible to cash" stuff was handed over.

Carry in church? Yes, it is for the children.

 

[OB-1]

The wife & I carry at church. The Pastor welcomes it. We wouldn't attend a church that says no to concealed carry.

 

[Vic303]

A brief summary of some church shootings:

8 dead, 4 wounded as New Berlin man
opens fire in church meeting at Brookfield hotel
Posted: March 12, 2005
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the September 15, 1999, shooting at Wedgwood Baptist Church in Ft Worth.
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No date listed on this one: ATLANTA (AP) — A woman opened fire at an Atlanta church before services yesterday morning, killing her mother and the minister before committing suicide.
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8/29/05 SASH, Texas — A gunman killed four people near a small-town church, then killed himself early Monday after a nine-hour standoff with police, authorities said.

Police said witnesses told them that A.P. Crenshaw (search), who lived across the street from the Sash Assembly of God church, exchanged words in the church parking lot Sunday night with church member Wes Brown (search), who asked Crenshaw to leave.

Crenshaw returned a short time later and shot Brown, 61, at close range, and then shot the pastor, James Armstrong (search), 42, the witnesses said. Deputies found both men dead in a grassy area next to the parking lot, Fannin County Sheriff Kenneth Moore said.
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And from this weekend...
Church shooting suspect surrenders

01:42 PM CDT on Monday, September 11, 2006

By BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News

Alveda Edwards (left) was fatally shot outside Greenville Avenue Church of Christ in Richardson. Police suspect the gunman was her husband, Tommy Edwards Jr.

A 46-year-old man accused of gunning down his estranged wife in the parking lot of her church turned himself in to police late Monday morning, police said.
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It is a lot more common than you might think. This was just a quick google search of the topic, and the fact I remembered reading about the Greenville shooting in the paper this week. Carry in church is a good idea if not prohibited by law in your area.

 

[ctdonath]

Had one pastor give some anecdote from the pulpit about shadier characters attending church and emptying their pockets of knives etc. into a suitably-marked box at the sanctuary entrance. Then made some comment about weapons not being appropriate amidst a worship service. And said much of this while looking directly at me.

Concealed = Concealed, but some know what to look for.

His successor was, fortunately, a staunch CCW supporter.