Let's say you DO have a gun in church ...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Legionnaire

Legionnaire

Contributing Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
8,642
Location
Texas
Didn't want to hijack pax's thread You don't need a gun in church, and my question is more tactical, so moving the question here.

Let's say you DO carry in church, and you know that others do, too. I suspect there are a number who carry where I attend, but to my knowledge there has never been an organized discussion about coordinated response should the need arise. This strikes me as problematic, as lack of coordination in a crisis could have tragic consequences.

For those of you who do carry in church, have you ever discussed this with others in your congregation, including the leadership? If you haven't, how would you go about initiating such a conversation? My guess is that in any congregation, there would be a fairly significant number of individuals who, even if convinced of a scripturally based right to self defense, would feel very uncomfortable knowing that there are loaded weapons in their midst.

Thoughts and experience?
 
What type of event do you foresee at church where a coordinated response is critical? IIRC, assaults on churches have consisted of single shooter incidents and attacks using incindiary/explosive devices. In the case of the latter, CCW is pretty useless as your priority will be getting any survivors out of the building and to medical attention. In the case of the former, you have a pretty distinct target; not much question as to who is the BG.
I can see why you think about this, but remember that every time you go to the movies, or a restaurant, or a shopping mall you are around other CCW who don't know you are carrying and who can't coordinate with you.
 
I can see why you think about this, but remember that every time you go to the movies, or a restaurant, or a shopping mall you are around other CCW who don't know you are carrying and who can't coordinate with you.
Click to expand...

Well a few churches seem to disagree with you, specifically the one in Ft Worth where a shooting occurred leaving 7 dead, 4 of them teens.

That church now has an active security team made up of members of the church that carry concealed.

They don't pretend to be a SWAT team but they do sit near all of the doors and each have an entrance to keep an eye on.

Makes sense to at least have a discussion about it.
 
That church now has an active security team made up of members of the church that carry concealed.
Click to expand...

I don't know about TX, but here in PA the licensing for armed security and a CCW permit are two entirely different things. Are the members of that security team in compliance with the TX laws (if any) regarding armed security? Does the church carry liability insurance should one of the guards choose to shoot and has a bullet go awry?
 
Are the members of that security team in compliance with the TX laws (if any) regarding armed security?
Click to expand...

You've read a bit more into this than you should I think.

It's private property, they may do as they wish. And they carry the weapons concealed, well within the laws of the State of Texas for CHL holders therefore do NOT need to be in compliance with any "armed security" laws. And since it IS private property, they could open carry if they wished, with the approval of the property owners, just like gun store owners do. That was discussed and decided against by members of the board of that church.

Churches are not public property, private citizens may most certainly speak with each other concerning "What would you do if...." and make plans accordingly and I'm shocked that you folks in Pennsylvania outlaw that sort of thing. :rolleyes:

They DO have insurance, yes. They also have a vivid memory of 4 dead teenagers being carried out the front door (and 3 adults)
 
Don't read more into what I said than is there. You used the term "active security team." Is it public knowledge that they are acting as such? If they are acting as security, even on private property, in Pennsylvania they must be licensed as such. However things should be in a perfect world, in the real world the smart money is on following the applicable regulations for a corporation (and churches are legally corporations). Civil suits following a shooting, whether justified or not, are something you should plan for, especially when you are a "deep pockets" target like a church.
 
Joe, you asked:
What type of event do you foresee at church where a coordinated response is critical?
Click to expand...
Maybe a better way for me to have framed my question would have been, "How do we ensure that we're all on the same page?" Say an armed robber comes in and just wants to shake down the congregation. Has there been any discussion regarding optimal outcome? Given the differences of opinion regularly expressed on THR from "Best to avoid a gunfight" to "I'm dropping that guy in his tracks," my guess is that there would be similar variance among those who may be carrying in church. Would we, collectively, consider it an okay outcome if an armed robber held up the church, took off with the offering and miscellaneous stuff taken from attendees, with no one being hurt?

Or consider: Some who CCW have extensive training, practice regularly, etc. Others pass whatever qualification is needed to get their permits, but then don't regularly practice. Differential attitudes, differential skills ... The only thing common is that church attendance is pretty stable. That is, those who join come regularly, so it is pretty likely that some core group will be there each week. Wouldn't it make sense to try and be on the same page?

Sounds like the church in TX went through this in response to their first-hand tradgedy. Does such a discussion always have to be reactive?

I'm inclined to quietly ask one of our deacons about what kinds of safety procedures we have in place ... for such contingencies as fire, someone having a heart attack, etc., and in that context, ask if any thought has been given to physical security against violence.

Kind of thinking "out loud" here. Any and all opinions ... but especially first hand experiences ... welcome!
 
active security team
Click to expand...

Sorry, I think the "active security team" was taken like tactical people would take it ;)
That's not what I meant.

Dictionary.com
ac‧tive  /ˈæktɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ak-tiv]
being in a state of existence.

As opposed to a passive "security" which would just be a bunch of guys with CHLs in a room together, with no plan if something goes wrong which is the movie theater version mentioned above.

I'm not talking the "Tacticool" dictionary here, just English.

As for the "public" being aware of them, they made no secret of it but I am sure there are no signs anywhere.
And yes civil suits might happen, but again, this particular group has the memory of 7 dead to help make the decision whether to plan for financial or safety.

I'm inclined to quietly ask one of our deacons about what kinds of safety procedures we have in place ... for such contingencies as fire, someone having a heart attack, etc., and in that context, ask if any thought has been given to physical security against violence.
Click to expand...

I did ask my preacher that question. He said he had honestly never thought about ANY of it before, other than the fire alarms and an extinguisher the fire marshall made them install.

We had several meetings on evacuations, tornado/fire/gas leak drills etc.

As for security against violence, the church voted against doing what Wedgewood did, for the reasons Joe Demko talks about, mainly the money. It could get very expensive no doubt. I guess having "been there" makes that church more willing to take the risk.

In the end my preacher told 2 or 3 of us that asked that he had no problem with us carrying, but the church would not make it "policy" to say such a thing was OK. You could certainly argue it either way.
 
So, TexasSIGman, do the 2 or 3 of you know who the others are? And have you talked at all among yourselves about your intentions? Or even some basic tactics? For example, I decided years ago (way before CCW was an option for me) that I would sit on the end of the row/pew (despite my younger kids wanting to sit there) so that should the need arise, I could get into action quickly and not have to fight my way past a bunch of knees ... even if only to help break the fall of someone passing out. Kind of the "condition yellow" mindset. Wouldn't it make sense to have these conversations, even if informal?

Another example. You're just a layperson, and you know that a deacon or two, or maybe even one of the associate pastors, carries regularly. Do you talk in advance about "who is in charge?" There would likely be a tendency for some to sit and let others lead. But what if your deacons or spiritual leadership aren't prepared to lead in this kind of emergency? I'll bet they don't have courses in physical security in seminary! By comparison, flight attendants get all kinds of training in handling contingencies.

And on Flight 93, it took a while for the resistance to get organized, as is to be expected, since that was a plane load of people thrown together by circumstances. In the church community, some of the organization might take place in advance of an emergency ...

... including talking about liabilities, legal requirements, and all the regulatory stuff Joe Demko is suggesting.
 
So, TexasSIGman, do the 2 or 3 of you know who the others are?
Click to expand...

That original group do, but there might be others. It's too bad the church won't approve of the open discussion but I can understand the liability issues.

We all sit on the back row by the 3 doors into the main sanctuary and hope for the best. Not sure what else there is.
 
Civil suits following a shooting, whether justified or not, are something you should plan for, especially when you are a "deep pockets" target like a church.
Click to expand...

I don't know where you go to church, but our pockets are about as shallow as you can get! If someone wanted to sue us, it would be getting blood from the proverbial stone. And, since the church is incorporated, the officers and membership are protected as well.

Asking the church leadership will mosr likely result in a request that no-one carry a weapon in church. Let sleeping dogs lie.
Click to expand...

It would be hard for them to complain, since it is the leadership people , or some of them anyway, who are doing the carrying! One of the annual activites of our church involves a bunch of men and boys getting together to shoot. I don't think there would be a huge outcry in our congregation, especially since some of the women have been known to carry as well. Heck, we've spread our guns out on the tailgate of the truck after the service so we can compare our various choices!
 
Thanks Jeff. I usually try to do a search before posting a new topic, but keying off the thread over in "General" I jumped on this one without doing the search step. :eek: I'll look these threads over.

...

Okay, read the threads Jeff linked to. A lot of good stuff there. At least one of those threads got pretty close to what I asked about; that is, getting organized. I'm still interested in hearing how others got started in their church-related discussions. At least one poster in one of the threads said something like, "The biggest problem may be getting the deacons (or other church leaders) to recognize they have a problem."

My concern remains. There are any number of folks in a church that might be carrying on any given day. Since we're a faith community, it seems odd that we would all think of ourselves as "free agents." I'm still interested in how to get such a discussion "on the agenda" and wouldn't mind hearing additional input from others who have initiated, or been party to, such discussions.
 
Last edited:
Let's be realistic. Unless one's church is in some horrible neighborhood, all sorts of security precautions in a church setting are ridiculous. This sets up a situation where people get all paranoid about strangers and church is the last place that strangers should looked upon as possible "perps" or interlopers. Gee, what's next, metal detectors in the narthex? PPK's in the pews?

As for me, I leave my fear and paranoia at the door. Of course we have a legitimate right of self-defense. But I am not going to get fearful in church on Sunday morning. If that means I am slightly less secure, than so be it. I know that St. Jeffrey of Cooper might disagree, but church is the one place I am not going to be in condition yellow. I am concentrating on God's Word, in the sermon and in the sacraments.
 
I and a few others that attend my church carry. I pack a 1911 or a Taurus 85. I got started on packing in church right after I got my CCW permit. The father of the girl I was dating carried a gun everywhere. I guess I learned after his philosophy. Years later I was talking to some of the other men in the church I was attending and the subject of guns came up. They asked if I packed and I said yes. They told me that they also packed in church but we never really did "church firearms training." It was pretty much a mutual agreement that we would do whatever it took to stop a deadly threat and protect the congregation. I am now in a new state and don't have my new CCW permit yet. I will be packing in church once again when I do.
 
Some of our members carry. Oddly enough, I was just thinking about this the other day, because the logistics of our building and congregation are such that unless someone comes in with a gun and starts shooting (a la the Dallas church) any armed response would be far more likely to take out one of the congregation than not. Because in our church we stand for almost all the service, a clear line of fire would be next to impossible.

Then there are the marble floors and metal chairs for bullets to ricochet off.

We've never actually talked about it, although I tried to get a discussion going once regarding our church hall (we rent it out upon occasion) and nobody wanted to talk about it, so I dropped it. But we still ought to have that conversation I think I can say without reservation that if it were a robbery, the guy would not be met with force. If he came in shooting, that would be different.

Springmom
 
I hate to say but some here are too fixated on carrying. You carry it concealed, who knows or cares other than the fixated.

Church is special? How please explain this to me. It is just another building IMHO.

I carry every day for the past 34 years and have NEVER been made. What is hard about that?
 
Thanks, Springmom. You're getting to the thrust of my original question. I'm not asking about whether or not one should or should not carry in church. I'm making the assumption that a significant number of people do (like gezzer).

I appreciate CornCod's desire to stay focused on worship; that's my desire as well. At a former church I attended that was located in a not-so-nice neighborhood, we had two men on "parking lot" duty each week. It cut down on problems, and let the rest of the congregants focus.

But I try never to be in condition white. Even at church, I sit where I can be of use should something happen (and I pray that nothing does). And I know that there are others who think the same way. My question is, shouldn't there be at least some level of conversation about this? Maybe the deacons are on top of this and they haven't informed the rest of the congregation; just quietly doing their job.

But as Springmom observed, in Springmom's church a clear line of sight would be next to impossible. Springmom is thinking about this. Are others there? I don't know for certain who carries in my church. I know one guy who asked me to serve as a reference for him to get his permit. I know, like, and trust the guy. But, he's fairly inexperienced with firearms. I plan to talk with him one-on-one about this, since he opened the door by asking me to serve as a reference. I can imagine him (or someone I didn't know was carrying) pulling out their CCW without thinking through the consequences and either drawing fire or injuring a bystander.

All I am wondering is if those who carry in church, and who attend the same church regularly, have had any conversations with others about indicated responses and coordination of same should the need arise. Maybe all that is needed is encouragement NOT to take action (in the case of a robbery, for example) unless some threshold (specific verbal threat, actual violence, etc.) is reached.
 
Most of the larger church's in metro atlanta have an LP team to keep track of property, and they hire off duty officers. In fact, some are so large they hire several officers outside for traffic control and several inside for building / overall security.
 
Our plan.

There are three of us that carry in church. Myself, my Dad who happens to be the pastor and a deacon. The plan is, if anything should happen, the one closest is to close distance as fast as possible to minimize potential for someone else getting in the way and take out the person who needs taking out. The other two will prepare for the across-the-sanctuary shot if it's needed.

The plan is basic and perhaps quite flawed, but there's me, relatively good with a handgun and been in a few tumbles, my Dad who is a good target shot but never shot at anyone although he is convinced he'd do it if he felt the need. I don't question that because I've seen some pretty brutal violence from him when it was called for once. The other man, a deacon, is a prison guard with moderate skill and training. None of us are rambo types, so we keep it simple.
 
A simple response plan before hand is better than reacting off the cuff once the SHTF
Click to expand...
Very well said. And have a back-up plan. And a back-up to the back-up.

I know this is getting away from the "gun" thing, but here are some church safety/security links
that may be helpful:
http://www.christianemergencynetwork.org/
http://www.churchbusiness.com/
http://www.brotherhoodmutual.com/NAV-pages/navart31.shtml
http://www.guideone.com/center.htm
http://www.ministrycontinuitysolutions.com/
http://www.adl.org/security/new_guide/
http://www.tfwm.com/

Also the afore mentioned Warrior Talk has some very informative posts.

Some books to look for on Amazon, half.com, or Ebay:
Serving by Safeguarding Your Church (Paul E.Engle)
Church Safety and Security: A Practical Guide (Robert M. Cirtin)
Crime Prevention for Houses of Worship (Chester L. Quarles, CPP, & Paula L. Ratliff)
Risk Mangement for Churches and Schools (Richard Hammar & James F. Cobble)

Besides providing a "security overwatch", there are other valid reasons for an organized team: Locate missing children, help evacuate the building in case of fire or get persons to shelter in event of serious weather conditions. We are rural and it would be 10-12 minutes AT BEST for medical or Sheriff's personnel to arrive. We have identified all our medical personnel at church and the team knows where they are seated in event of a medical emergency (also keep several well-stocked first aid kits available: we have one in each building).

Our church is in the 300+ range of attendance on Sundays, and we have about half that many in youth on Wednesday night. We've had vehicles broken into, harrassment in the parking area (on Sunday morning, no less), persons trying to steal from our buildings and recreation area. Latest in our area is a man claiming to be "Jesus" going around and disrupting services.

Older members don't see the "need" for such, but the younger members really like the fact that someone is watching over them and their family. Back to the "gun" thing, myself and my wife are the only ones I know of who CCW in our congregation. No one has ever asked, but I think a few "know" and a few more suspect we do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

O
  • Locked
A Church Security Plan
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
deserteagle45
D
J
  • Locked
FEMA Church Security Training?
Replies
4
Views
350
benEzra
benEzra
TomJ
  • Locked
Looking for a recommendation regarding armed church security
2 3
Replies
63
Views
4K
zorro45
Z
S
  • Locked
Churches and "loose" guns...
2 3
Replies
56
Views
3K
JT sport
J
P
  • Locked
  • Poll
POLL: Do you bring your guns into church?
2 3 4
Replies
84
Views
3K
tom barthel
T
Back
Top