Yup.
Well, except I haven't worked first hand with them, but I have read a good bit written by those who have.
CCW'rs gun used against him in a robbery
- Thread starter usmarine0352_2005
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Yup.
Well, except I haven't worked first hand with them, but I have read a good bit written by those who have.
I'm not sure what that means but I can tell you from first hand experience there are not only cultural differences in how you deal with the criminal mindset but differences between cultures too. Asian, hispanic, and black people don't go by the same rules and have to be dealt with differently. making a blanket statement like, "look them in the eyes", regardless of what you read, to apply to all criminals is naive and at worst dangerous. One thing I "read" and I've seen in my own experience is that criminals tend to respond to someone who is confident and appears in charge of himself and his situation. It shows strength. Don't be over brash or challenging but if you look uncertain and afraid you will look vulnerable. Keep yourself calm and strong. They don't like fear and they respect confidence. Don't ever appear like you think you are better than them. Most crooks have a low self esteem and compensate for it by their loud outgoing personality. If you treat him like you are equals you will be on much better footing. All in all its better to try to avoid the situation all together. The really "bad" people are usually, from what I've seen, drug or alcohol influenced and they don't play by any rules but their own. He may have decided how your night it going before he even said one word to you. My experience in the field of corrections. MOST of the men I have dealt with for the last 20 years have been sober and they are different people when they are sober. When they get a hold of some hooch they become totally different, unpredictable, and dangerous. Many have severe psychological and/or emotional issues that can play out any number of ways. Setting rules for how you engage someone on the street when his is un-medicated or SELF-medicated is like playing chess by the rules with someone who can move all his pieces any direction.
When I was in the Marine Corps I was a FTO for a while and one thing I taught my Marines was that as an MP, you are always at the disadvantage. You don't get to decide if the situation is deadly, if force is necessary, if things are going to go bad, only the suspect gets to decide that. What you can decide is that you are going to do everything you can to resolve and avoid trouble BUT when the moment comes to REACT, you will do so with all the strength, explosiveness, fortitude, and determination that YOU are going to survive that you can gather. The only thing you will know at that moment is that YOU are going home when it is over. You don't get to decide how or when the decision to fight for your life will be start but YOU have to decide when it ends. That is what it all boils down to for me.
Be a good person, treat others with respect, don't pick a fight when you can walk away, and remember the words of Col. Jeff Cooper,
“One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that ‘violence begets violence.’ I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure—and in some cases I have—that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.”
Mainsail
Member
I guess the element of surprise didn't quite work in his favor. 
Loosedhorse
member
A gun should be worn in such a way that it is accessible to either hand, in case one is injured. If you don't do that (or can't) then you need two weapons. Two guns is fine, but a gun and a knife will do--as long as one is available to one hand, the other to the other.
Just because you carry a gun, don't expect it to save you. If you don't see something coming it's over before you are aware what happened. usually we see things that happen to other people before we see our own situation. My gun saved me countless times in 40 years. living in NYC, and being out late most of my youth, I have seen a lot. Most guys will make a run at you if you have a few bucks, and you are near an after hours or late night club, or just a dead street. 2 weeks ago I got tailed from my house, in a gated community, "now that I am old" for 6 miles by 2 jerks who were waiting on a dirt road for a nice car.They tailed me for 5 turns and about 5 miles. I finaly pulled into a well lit publics at 10 pm. I made a u turn and cut them off, they knew I made them, and took off behind the supermarket. You have to be aware or the gun is useless.
wannabeagunsmith
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Couldn't you cover up for your self by saying something like "oh I just thought I recognized you" in confronted for making eye contact?
mljdeckard
Member
I don't see any reason for anyone to be disagreeing with anyone here.
There are no guarantees about anything. All we are trying to do with training and tools is increase the odds. You can make them better, but you will never get 100%. If open carrying would have prevented this one, it would have caused a different one. If this guy had trained to draw weak handed, he would have been blocked. If he had a BUG on the weak side, he would have been lying on it.
Everyone should think their plan through, and do the best tey can to plan for all possible outcomes and pay attention to their situation. But it won't be perfect. No more than wearing your seatbelt guarantees you won't die in an accident.
There are no guarantees about anything. All we are trying to do with training and tools is increase the odds. You can make them better, but you will never get 100%. If open carrying would have prevented this one, it would have caused a different one. If this guy had trained to draw weak handed, he would have been blocked. If he had a BUG on the weak side, he would have been lying on it.
Everyone should think their plan through, and do the best tey can to plan for all possible outcomes and pay attention to their situation. But it won't be perfect. No more than wearing your seatbelt guarantees you won't die in an accident.
mljdeckard
Member
No, I wasn't disagreeing with you at all.
Guns are not magic talismans.
In our modern society it is considered unacceptable and unreasonable to expect the type of distance one needs to maintain control of a minimum defensive space.
In times long past people used to approach any other group of people ready to kill if needed, and view anyone approaching even from afar as a dangerous threat. The polite thing to do approaching others was to make yourself clearly known from a good distance away before for example going anywhere near a camp or party of strangers.
Putting yourself in any situation where you could have harmed someone was extremely disrespectful.
Someone even getting almost close enough unannounced to use a thrown weapon was considered to be acting hostile.
Walking into a camp of casual people that didn't even known you were coming would have been an extremely hostile act. Today it would just be normal.
The handshake for example stems from two people coming together and offering their weapon hand forward. This put them at great risk in meeting with a stranger and at the stranger's mercy as extending their weapon hand to someone meant they could be cut down unable to do much themselves until it was too late. As a result it was going so far out of their way as to risk their own safety as a measure of good faith that it became known as one of the friendliest well meaning greetings.
Today such times are past. People can get within a short distance of people on the street, or even in the middle of nowhere, and there is no real way you can articulate a legal reason for any type of hostile force under the law.
This even applies when you have a decent reason to suspect they may be a threat, but not solid evidence. Anyone can approach you or walk up to you, and they are breaking no laws and have met no legal justification for force. So by law even condition yellow really only provides for so much, because someone can still remove all distance between you and them, and legally you have little recourse in most cases until they have demonstrated they are hostile by attacking or threatening you.
By the time they display a weapon if they have one for example they are quite often within just a few yards, making contact, or within or just outside arms reach. Your ability to successfully react to a criminal with a weapon they are proficient with, be it gun, knife, etc at that point is greatly reduced.
Before that if you notice them with no visible weapon approaching you can give them unkind words, body language, you could run, and the rules of the street may allow something else entirely, but the law does not. Under the law you must allow all tactical advantage to be removed from you.
Additionally one must also consider that using a gun against an unarmed attacker is a very difficult gray area under the law.
Many men that use a gun against an unarmed attacker find themselves found guilty of some serious crimes, or must go very far to demonstrate they really needed that gun. The law often requires a lesser amount of force.
While a hesitant person trying to size up the situation before going for their gun in this situation may find it taken or themselves unable to use it soon into the altercation.
From the perspective of the victim this went from a simple unarmed attack to a robbery at about the point his gun was taken from him. Likely within seconds of the initial attack.
A hesitancy to use the gun before it was found and taken means it would have done him little good.
Being quick to use it may have meant he was in legal trouble.
So another consideration is that the person may have hesitated not feeling justified in lethal force or display of lethal force until they no longer had that option. Had they used lethal force even we cannot say they would have been deemed justified. There was no robbery until there was a robbery after the initial attack, when they took the victim's gun and then demanded their wallet as well.
Had the victim shot the guy that rammed them on the street in a misdemeanor battery they may have gone to prison. Even pulling a gun to threaten in many states by law requires the same requirements that shooting the person requires.
Women and some others can get away with a little more, but a it is a lot tougher for a man.
By the time it is legally clear that pulling the gun is necessary or legal, things may be over and may have ended undesirably.
Having a gun does not protect you from things. It merely provides for additional options in many situations. However it does not always provide for a successful option.
In our modern society it is considered unacceptable and unreasonable to expect the type of distance one needs to maintain control of a minimum defensive space.
In times long past people used to approach any other group of people ready to kill if needed, and view anyone approaching even from afar as a dangerous threat. The polite thing to do approaching others was to make yourself clearly known from a good distance away before for example going anywhere near a camp or party of strangers.
Putting yourself in any situation where you could have harmed someone was extremely disrespectful.
Someone even getting almost close enough unannounced to use a thrown weapon was considered to be acting hostile.
Walking into a camp of casual people that didn't even known you were coming would have been an extremely hostile act. Today it would just be normal.
The handshake for example stems from two people coming together and offering their weapon hand forward. This put them at great risk in meeting with a stranger and at the stranger's mercy as extending their weapon hand to someone meant they could be cut down unable to do much themselves until it was too late. As a result it was going so far out of their way as to risk their own safety as a measure of good faith that it became known as one of the friendliest well meaning greetings.
Today such times are past. People can get within a short distance of people on the street, or even in the middle of nowhere, and there is no real way you can articulate a legal reason for any type of hostile force under the law.
This even applies when you have a decent reason to suspect they may be a threat, but not solid evidence. Anyone can approach you or walk up to you, and they are breaking no laws and have met no legal justification for force. So by law even condition yellow really only provides for so much, because someone can still remove all distance between you and them, and legally you have little recourse in most cases until they have demonstrated they are hostile by attacking or threatening you.
By the time they display a weapon if they have one for example they are quite often within just a few yards, making contact, or within or just outside arms reach. Your ability to successfully react to a criminal with a weapon they are proficient with, be it gun, knife, etc at that point is greatly reduced.
Before that if you notice them with no visible weapon approaching you can give them unkind words, body language, you could run, and the rules of the street may allow something else entirely, but the law does not. Under the law you must allow all tactical advantage to be removed from you.
Additionally one must also consider that using a gun against an unarmed attacker is a very difficult gray area under the law.
Many men that use a gun against an unarmed attacker find themselves found guilty of some serious crimes, or must go very far to demonstrate they really needed that gun. The law often requires a lesser amount of force.
While a hesitant person trying to size up the situation before going for their gun in this situation may find it taken or themselves unable to use it soon into the altercation.
From the perspective of the victim this went from a simple unarmed attack to a robbery at about the point his gun was taken from him. Likely within seconds of the initial attack.
A hesitancy to use the gun before it was found and taken means it would have done him little good.
Being quick to use it may have meant he was in legal trouble.
So another consideration is that the person may have hesitated not feeling justified in lethal force or display of lethal force until they no longer had that option. Had they used lethal force even we cannot say they would have been deemed justified. There was no robbery until there was a robbery after the initial attack, when they took the victim's gun and then demanded their wallet as well.
Had the victim shot the guy that rammed them on the street in a misdemeanor battery they may have gone to prison. Even pulling a gun to threaten in many states by law requires the same requirements that shooting the person requires.
Women and some others can get away with a little more, but a it is a lot tougher for a man.
By the time it is legally clear that pulling the gun is necessary or legal, things may be over and may have ended undesirably.
Having a gun does not protect you from things. It merely provides for additional options in many situations. However it does not always provide for a successful option.
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Lex Luthier
Member
While I have never really been aware of the 21 Foot Rule, for a long time I have used the three step rule. I figure in the time it takes for me to notice something awry, hopefully I will be able to react positively.
In my experience, looking a potential BG in the eyes forces the other guy to react. A non threat will keep walking, while a BG may even yell at you and loudly inquire "Whatchu lookin at?", at which point he has showed his hand and blown his element of surprise. This has happened to me a handful of times, and I always laugh at the simplicity and immaturity on their part.
Learning a little martial arts is another way to enhance one's confidence. Once you are solid with a few moves, practice drills. I am a fan of the extendable baton, and can draw that with either hand in three steps and probably win that little street duel if called to arms. There have been some attacks by feral youth downtown on bicyclists, and a local Krav Maga studio now offers self defense for bikers.
As is always said here, situational awareness is key. Do NOT go to certain parts of Uptown Minneapolis at certain times of the day in a state of oblivion and expect safe passage. There was a rash of assaults and robberies on the other nicer side of Uptown a few years ago where my friend's neighbor got killed. Everyone was up in arms about how this could have happened in such a high rent area, but I was not surprised. Hopefully the event helped others wake up to the potential dangers.
In my experience, looking a potential BG in the eyes forces the other guy to react. A non threat will keep walking, while a BG may even yell at you and loudly inquire "Whatchu lookin at?", at which point he has showed his hand and blown his element of surprise. This has happened to me a handful of times, and I always laugh at the simplicity and immaturity on their part.
Learning a little martial arts is another way to enhance one's confidence. Once you are solid with a few moves, practice drills. I am a fan of the extendable baton, and can draw that with either hand in three steps and probably win that little street duel if called to arms. There have been some attacks by feral youth downtown on bicyclists, and a local Krav Maga studio now offers self defense for bikers.
As is always said here, situational awareness is key. Do NOT go to certain parts of Uptown Minneapolis at certain times of the day in a state of oblivion and expect safe passage. There was a rash of assaults and robberies on the other nicer side of Uptown a few years ago where my friend's neighbor got killed. Everyone was up in arms about how this could have happened in such a high rent area, but I was not surprised. Hopefully the event helped others wake up to the potential dangers.
sansone
Member
yes the BG always has the advantage. Decent people with high moral standards don't plan evil deeds, we react to them. Sometimes too late
Driftertank
Member
I won't say i never get close to people on the street, but in my town there are a LOT of people walking the street under the influence of drugs of some kind, you can see it in their eyes and body language. Many of the ones who aren't, have "the walk", you know, the dour-faced, strutting slightly, looking for trouble look.
As a result, if i'm on the sidewalk, and someone i don't know is within 30 feet or so, i'm on guard. Look them over, not with a defiant or challenging gaze, but quick assesment. If eye contact is made, a respectful nod. But i'm never staring at my feet or listening to music. You can hear someone's gait or direction change a lot of the time if traffic noise isn't too loud.
It's been a long time since i was attacked in public, and that time was just an ego-driven attempt to make me fight. But there's no shortage of gang-related violence here, so it always pays to keep an eye on who, or what, is going on around you. I've had potentially close-calls, but i've never needed to draw a gun, ever.
As a result, if i'm on the sidewalk, and someone i don't know is within 30 feet or so, i'm on guard. Look them over, not with a defiant or challenging gaze, but quick assesment. If eye contact is made, a respectful nod. But i'm never staring at my feet or listening to music. You can hear someone's gait or direction change a lot of the time if traffic noise isn't too loud.
It's been a long time since i was attacked in public, and that time was just an ego-driven attempt to make me fight. But there's no shortage of gang-related violence here, so it always pays to keep an eye on who, or what, is going on around you. I've had potentially close-calls, but i've never needed to draw a gun, ever.
Owen Sparks
member
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- May 27, 2007
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- 4,523
This is yet another example of why as unarmed attack constitutes a deadly threat anytime there is weapon present.
Creature
Member
I wonder where he carried his weapon...perhaps at or behind his hip? Its why I appendix carry so that I can draw using my weak hand.
WilleRupert
Member
I'm on high alert anywhere east of 35w, which is right where this went down. Big transit center there too, which always has its share of creeps.
Or he was going to just walk by, but now that you challenged him you have a problem you otherwise would not have.
I suggest looking over Facing Violence by Rory miller
Having a gun doesn't impart invincibility. Like you said, knowing self defense is important. Situational awareness is important, too. If someone gets too close," Hey, I don't know you. that's close enough.". Be prepared to get behind cover, run or draw, whatever, but don't just stand there.
On a totally semi-related note, this is another reason (weak hand shooting) why I don't believe in safeties on your CCW. For those who love their 1911, it better have an ambi safety and you damn well better practice using it with your weak hand. But if a gut shot is in order, I'd prefer something where I can just pull the trigger.
It's a shame that opportunity didn't present itself in this case.
It's a shame that opportunity didn't present itself in this case.
That is a good point about ambidextrous safeties. My P238 for a backup doesn't have it. The new P938 will. I told a police officer yesterday that I carry two guns these days because of situations like these.
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