XD-40 Shooter
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2007
- Messages
- 912
I agree, the militarization of our police forces is scary, they are becoming more and more agressive. Some of them are even recieving training in urban combat from the U.S military.
Chicago Police to use M4 carbines (Chicago Tribune)
- Thread starter Neo-Luddite
- Start date
- Status
Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not the reason we have a National Guard?! Why does Chicago not have the Gaurd come in and kick the snot out of punks like these gangs? Instead of 13,000 M4s to the CPD, have 13,000 IL Nat'l Guardsmen come into "Dodge". Suround the city, and sweep inward.
Those with a long memory will recall the last time someone attempted to cleanup the CPD. O. W. Wilson was brought in back in the 60's in response to the almost complete infiltration of the CPD by various organized crime elements. He basically said "go and sin no more" and did very little to deal with the endemic corruption of the department previous to his tenure.
He was somewhat successful in getting the CPD out of the control of the local criminal element, mostly by limiting the local ward bosses control over police in their wards.
In the end, it was moderately successful in some respects, but without a commitment from the city government to have an honest and upright police department, and the moxie to make it happen, you end up with the mess the CPD has been in for the last 2 decades. The criminals that control it now are the criminals that run Chicago, as they found ways to take back control of the CPD.
Part of the problem that you can't just fire the whole department and start over. This tactic has proven very successful in much smaller departments where an outside force (like the sheriff's department or ISP) can take over policing duties for a short time while the force is rebuilt, but a force of 13,000 officers can't be replaced overnight.
Deanimator
Member
Given the quality of training and supervision in the Chicago PD, I predict deaths of innocent civilians almost immediately. If you can't handle a Ruger SP-101, I don't have high hopes for what you'll do with a genuine automatic weapon.
More people will get rich... too bad it'll be because a relative is dead.
More people will get rich... too bad it'll be because a relative is dead.
Nanook
Member
"As long as the trains run on time, the people will be happy."
We ought to start a pool of some sorts as to how long before one of those brand spanking new M4s turn up being wielded by the "Insane Nitwit Posse".
Or whatever is the current "baddest" gang.
My roots in the region only reach back as far as the summer of '85 when my family relocated to Chicagoland. So I can't really comment firsthand on anything prior to that.
However, my personal experience goes back about a decade and includes extensive contact with members of the CPD including people I attended college with who have gone on to become officers, former friends of my brother who took jobs as officers, and the father of a friend who was a lifer. Sadly, none of these people are individuals who I would consider "high character" types.
...but again...I won't condemn the whole department on the basis of my first hand exposure.
...and again I still don't understand where the "outgunned" argument comes from. I realize that there was a time in Chicago, (mid late 80's if my recall is right) when certain street gangs (the El Rukns) saw members indicted for trying to obtain RPGs from Gaddafi. But as I said earlier, I thought the latest FBI stats did not bear out the notion that police officers are being harmed or killed with "assault weapons."
IIRC officers are still killed most often with their own weapons, in either 9mm or .40 S&W.
Am I wrong remembering that?
Finally...just how many M4s are we talking here? Half the cruisers in the city? 6000 or 7000 carbines? Might have to up the bottled water tax to pay for them all.
(Just did some more reading and watched some CLTV vids covering this story...Weis is looking to arm 1300 or so officers with M4s.)
Last edited:
Yes, I completely agree. Lets do the Barrett trick. Barrett stopped selling to California government agencies because the state infringed on their citizen's 2nd Amendment rights.
I hope AR is on the side of the Citizens, too.
A boycott will show the twisted libpervert lawmakers that we Americans refuse to accept their Nazi-like agenda.
If Weis is really going to push for acquiring a few thousand M4 type carbines...it does present an interesting political question for those who control the purse strings in Chicago.
...you can go out of state and buy from Colt (or Bushmaster, etc.,)...and give Illinois based AR manufacturers like Armalite and RRA (and their supporters) some great political capital to beat you up for being disloyal to locally owned and operated businesses who are perfectly capable of filling the contract.
...OR...you can buy the carbines from one of the aforementioned Illinois based manufacturers, thus publicly admitting that those manufacturers make a product that has redeeming social value, thereby providing some great political capital for the owners of those companies (and their supporters).
Lets not forget that as recently as a few months ago, Illinois legislators, led by legislators from the city proper, were drafting state-level legislation that could shutter the doors of companies like RRA, Armalite and Springfield Armory.
begin edit: outsider or not, Weis is toeing the party line when it comes to "assault weapons", as evidenced by these inane, Fuddlike statements uttered during a press conference at the beginning of last week:
Of course there is probably some bogus Federal DHS surplus grant system that provides Uncle Sam bucks for big cities to pick up the guns. Thus providing the powers that be in Chi-town with a workaround to avoid shelling out any money to Armalite or RRA.
...you can go out of state and buy from Colt (or Bushmaster, etc.,)...and give Illinois based AR manufacturers like Armalite and RRA (and their supporters) some great political capital to beat you up for being disloyal to locally owned and operated businesses who are perfectly capable of filling the contract.
...OR...you can buy the carbines from one of the aforementioned Illinois based manufacturers, thus publicly admitting that those manufacturers make a product that has redeeming social value, thereby providing some great political capital for the owners of those companies (and their supporters).
Lets not forget that as recently as a few months ago, Illinois legislators, led by legislators from the city proper, were drafting state-level legislation that could shutter the doors of companies like RRA, Armalite and Springfield Armory.
begin edit: outsider or not, Weis is toeing the party line when it comes to "assault weapons", as evidenced by these inane, Fuddlike statements uttered during a press conference at the beginning of last week:
Source: Chicago Tribune :end edit
Of course there is probably some bogus Federal DHS surplus grant system that provides Uncle Sam bucks for big cities to pick up the guns. Thus providing the powers that be in Chi-town with a workaround to avoid shelling out any money to Armalite or RRA.
Last edited:
Carl N. Brown
Member
John Brunner, The Jagged Orbit, 1969.
Wait until the CPD find out about the Gottshalk Weaponry Combine
Mark XIX oversuit with 350 Watt laser gun, projectile sidearm and
spare magazines, self fragmenting glass (Yes Glass not Gas) grenades,
18 cm knife and first aid kit: every cop an armored walking tank!
Plus the System C upgrade, with a tactical nuke launcher capable
of leveling 25 city blocks.....
Oops: yes, those are Glass Gas grenades with the Mark XIX oversuit.
(Hadn't read that book since May 1970.)
Last edited:
The Tourist
member
I'm all for law and order and the safety of the officers. However, there's a reason that there is a SWAT team, and there is a reason there are beat cops.
Setting aside any Posse Comitatus lines that are getting blurred, most beat cops aren't really "gun guys" and have little, if any training with a rifle of that sort.
There is a saying that, "If you are in trouble, call the police. When the police are in trouble, call SWAT."
That saying and philosophy have held for more than thirty years. I see no reason why untrained personnel should have actual assault weapons. They are peace officers, not shock troops.
Setting aside any Posse Comitatus lines that are getting blurred, most beat cops aren't really "gun guys" and have little, if any training with a rifle of that sort.
There is a saying that, "If you are in trouble, call the police. When the police are in trouble, call SWAT."
That saying and philosophy have held for more than thirty years. I see no reason why untrained personnel should have actual assault weapons. They are peace officers, not shock troops.
sacp81170a
Member
That didn't work very well at Columbine. The doctrine now is that if there's an active shooter, you go with what's on scene immediately rather than wait for SWAT 15-20 minutes later. Minutes = lives. That said, I'd bet that there will be darn few occasions when a patrol rifle is the right tool for the job. Expect to hear bad things if these guys aren't thoroughly trained, which I expect won't happen. I expect political correctness and budgetary constraints to rule the process.
Deanimator
Member
You can't impugn EVERY INDIVIDUAL OFFICER. It's very EASY to "impugn" the Chicago Police Department as an ORGANIZATION. It has degenerated completely to a Hobbesian state of nature, to the point where individual officers are no longer the issue. The Department is so thoroughly and fundamentally corrupt from top to bottom, that the actions of any individual officer are irrelevant. The SYSTEM itself is criminal. It is run BY criminals to protect other criminals. One needs only look at the last ten years of departmental wrongful death lawsuits to see the truth of this. Chicago cops who commit the most heinous crimes face no meaningful punishment. IAD allows criminal gangs to operate within "elite" units for YEARS.
The Chicago PD is completely and PERMANENTLY compromised. The ONLY way to fix this is to wipe out the whole corrupt mess and start over. Anybody who thinks Daley is going to do THAT is obviously a chronic user of narcotic drugs.
XD-40 Shooter,
Calm down. It is correct to describe the rate of fire of a full-auto weapon expressed as rounds per minute, or cyclic rate of fire. It describes how fast the action of the weapon can fire, auto-load, and fire again. So, if a weapon can fire ten rounds in one second, then its rate of fire is 600 rounds per minute. Doesn't matter if its mags only can hold ten rounds, or if the heat would cause it to malf sooner. The rate of fire is still 600 rpm.
Unfortunately, the uninformed think that number means somebody with that gun is actually going to be able to shoot that number of rounds at one time without stopping.
Edited to add: When I was a kid (I'm dating myself now) the F-104 Starfighter came into service. It's Vulcan 20mm rotary cannon was described as having a rate of fire of 6000 rounds per minute. The F-104, depending on the variation, however, carried only about 750 rounds, or so. The F-16 carries about 500 rounds.
Is it correct to say your car has a top speed of 120 mph, even though you will never, ever drive it 120 miles in one hour of time?
K
Calm down. It is correct to describe the rate of fire of a full-auto weapon expressed as rounds per minute, or cyclic rate of fire. It describes how fast the action of the weapon can fire, auto-load, and fire again. So, if a weapon can fire ten rounds in one second, then its rate of fire is 600 rounds per minute. Doesn't matter if its mags only can hold ten rounds, or if the heat would cause it to malf sooner. The rate of fire is still 600 rpm.
Unfortunately, the uninformed think that number means somebody with that gun is actually going to be able to shoot that number of rounds at one time without stopping.
Edited to add: When I was a kid (I'm dating myself now) the F-104 Starfighter came into service. It's Vulcan 20mm rotary cannon was described as having a rate of fire of 6000 rounds per minute. The F-104, depending on the variation, however, carried only about 750 rounds, or so. The F-16 carries about 500 rounds.
Is it correct to say your car has a top speed of 120 mph, even though you will never, ever drive it 120 miles in one hour of time?
K
Carl N. Brown
Member
For WHB Smith ("Small Arms of the World") to describe cyclic rate of fire as X rounds a minute, we know what it means.
What irks me is reporters claiming a semi-auto AR15 fires 900 rounds a minute because that is the cyclic rate of a military M16.
What irks me is reporters claiming a semi-auto AR15 fires 900 rounds a minute because that is the cyclic rate of a military M16.
Its not fair to claim every CPD officer is a bad guy. With supposedly 13,000 officers, you are bound to have a few bad apples. Some departments do their best to weed out the bad apples. CPD seems to take perverse pride in protecting them, although in fairness, it seems a fair number of the worst offenders have political clout protecting them, not just the thin blue line.
I said:
Deanimator said:
Your assertions may well be true...and believe me...I am no apologist, nor am I interested in systemic justification. However, as my interactions with people I know on the CPD in their capacity as police officers, is limited, I wouldn't expect THR members to impugn the entire department on that evidence alone. Hence my statement. I apologize for my grammatical choices, which, upon review, lack clarity.
When I wrote "whole department", I really meant...all the individual officers who make up the department, not the organization itself.
Deanimator said:
Your assertions may well be true...and believe me...I am no apologist, nor am I interested in systemic justification. However, as my interactions with people I know on the CPD in their capacity as police officers, is limited, I wouldn't expect THR members to impugn the entire department on that evidence alone. Hence my statement. I apologize for my grammatical choices, which, upon review, lack clarity.
When I wrote "whole department", I really meant...all the individual officers who make up the department, not the organization itself.
The only effect toting an extra weapon in their cruiser is going to be on its mileage...
How dare he blame anything but himself for making Chicago nothing short of another Tiajuana.
I apologize to the citizens of Chicago for my frustration. I hope you fair well. I only hope you are still there by no other choice rather than preference.
Rok
How dare he blame anything but himself for making Chicago nothing short of another Tiajuana.
I apologize to the citizens of Chicago for my frustration. I hope you fair well. I only hope you are still there by no other choice rather than preference.
Rok
Glockman17366
Member
I also think it's a bad idea for cops to use rifles (of any sort) in an urban area. They just don't have the training or judgement.
Shotguns...well, I think using shotguns would be a better idea.
BTW, writing the AR manufacturers (to not sell AR type rifles to Chicago) is a great idea! Of course, Colt would sell them regardless of what we gun owners wrote.
Shotguns...well, I think using shotguns would be a better idea.
BTW, writing the AR manufacturers (to not sell AR type rifles to Chicago) is a great idea! Of course, Colt would sell them regardless of what we gun owners wrote.
The Tourist
member
sacp81170a said:
That doesn't make me feel any better.
If you create a policing agenda that values 'shooters' over any other facet of being a peace officer, then people will become shooters, or shooters will be fast-tracked to higher paying status.
Like I said, we have Posse Comitatus in name only right now as it is. I cannot think of a weapon to which a police force cannot gain access, including armed gunships. Now we want to give police on our streets the same weapons we give to soldiers in Iraq.
Nope, bad idea. First off, without intense training they will be shooting each other. Our old police locker-room in Madison, Wisconsin was riddled with bullet holes. One errant round went out into a commons area. Our former police chief baked his Glock.
Heck, if I was gang-banger I'd just bash two garage can covers together every time I saw a squad car. Sooner or later there would be one muzzle cutting across a friendly.
Being a police officer has always been separate and distinct from being a soldier. By keeping the peace, you are investigating troubled stimuli in a community and stopping crime, not shooting it into teeny pieces.
At least there's one good thing. Chicago will now be a "petri dish" experiment for cops and assault weapons. Hang on.
DJW
Member
Chicago
Didn't I just see hiz honor saying the 36 shootings there last week(with only 9 or 10 killed)were the fault of the gun manufacturers? He was quoted in several places laying that blame squarely on their shoulders. Surely it was not the fault of a government that will not allow it's citizens to defend themselves!
Lived in that stink hole for decades before escaping to Texas. Never returned there except for funerals.
By the way........Texas is now full up and has been for more than 10 years. Flee to california or mass. or detriot..........much better in those places. Sorry there is no room left here.
Didn't I just see hiz honor saying the 36 shootings there last week(with only 9 or 10 killed)were the fault of the gun manufacturers? He was quoted in several places laying that blame squarely on their shoulders. Surely it was not the fault of a government that will not allow it's citizens to defend themselves!
Lived in that stink hole for decades before escaping to Texas. Never returned there except for funerals.
By the way........Texas is now full up and has been for more than 10 years. Flee to california or mass. or detriot..........much better in those places. Sorry there is no room left here.
mr.trooper
Member
thats how they do it here.
About a year ago, a cop stopped into a Dunken Donuts (no joke) and left his car unlocked. He came out, and OOPS! his bushmaster M4gery was MIA. They still haven't found the gun or the person who stole it.
Autolycus
Member
I am not PPO with Chicago PD but I am currently waiting for them to begin testing again. I grew up in the suburbs around Chicago and have moved away to finish my education. I currently go to a state school in central Illinois.
I have a few friends on the Chicago Police Department or currently in the process of waiting for their background investigations to finish up.
Part of this is because last week a few of Chicago's finest pursued some gangbangers down an alley. The gangbangers were armed with an AK style rifle (I doubt it was an actual selectfire weapon). They were armed with only their handguns which are DAO guns in 9mm, .40S&W, or .45 ACP. The officers do not have access to old shotguns that are probably older than I am. They have been asking for patrol rifles for a long time. The only units that have them are SWAT units. I do believe they have a unit called TRU (Tactical Response Unit) that may have some access to long-arms and which wears BDU style uniforms. They saturate areas shootings and other outbreaks of gang activity or violence.
There has also been a recent upstream in violence as the weather gets nicer outside. The officers are brave people who are trying to do the best they can but their hands are tied by the politicians who run the city, county, and state governments. It is these politicians that put the gun laws into place and force them down out throats. It is also these politicians that have destroyed the morale and city of Chicago through corruption, crime, and being greedy. These problems are why Chicago Police use outdated cars, computers, and have shotguns that were built in the seventies and eighties, have shotgun shells over seven years old for the guns, have less training than other departments, have no FOP contract, and have let Chicago lose the status as the greatest city on Earth. I love Chicago and my dream is to work amongst the esteemed men and women of the Chicago Police Department but not for the politicians that destroyed that department and city.
Another poster mentioned a blog called http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/ as a source for information. If you read the blog and the comments you will find a lot of pro-gun rhetoric and anti-Democrat rhetoric beside it. The majority of the people who frequent that blog are disgusted that you and I are not allowed to carry defensive weapons, purchase "assault weapons" in Chicago proper and Cook county, and have to register their guns. In this blog we have a friend and an anonymous informant in the Chicago Police Department who is willing to spill the beans on Mayor Daley, Jody Weiss, Phil Cline, and the alderman who really run the city by ensuring that Mayor Daley gets his votes.
A great example of this is Jody Weiss and his new position. Jody is a retired FBI agent who is now running a police department. The second largest police department in the country,on paper it is 14,000 officers but in reality it is 9,000 officers. (These people are working at a huge shortage of officers and deserve to be commended for it not mocked because they cannot do as good a job as we demand!) According to the blog, Daley chose Jody Weiss because it will keep the FBI and other Federal Investigators happy and the heat off some of the corruption found in the police department and their cronyism. It seems Jody has created quite a stir with his comments recently.
Such as his desire to arm the officers with a uniform sidearm (undetermined make and manufacturer but I am going to guess Glock) instead of allowing them to purchase Sigarms, Smith and Wesson, Glock, Springfield XD, Beretta, or Ruger guns that are DAO. This upset some as they will have lost an investment because they buy their own guns a duty belts. They do get a uniform allowance but it is not much.
His desire for fitness standards, which is good in some ways. However the department did hire them on with out them and it can cause some FOP trouble. It also does not take into affect that they are working 6 days on and off 2 days as well as court on some days. Keep in mind that the court is in addition to their shift and can be right in the middle of their offtime.
In addition to this many officers are working second jobs because they don't want their children to attend the shameful public schools in Chicago. They are also forced to live in Chicago while other city employees are not. Chicago is an expensive city to live in.
All they really want to do is be police and they are having a hard time doing it because of the same people who are screwing us Illinois gun owners as well.
So cut them some slack. Check out the link I posted earlier and read the comments found therein. Keep in mind that the comments may contain quite a bit of four letter words.
I have a few friends on the Chicago Police Department or currently in the process of waiting for their background investigations to finish up.
Part of this is because last week a few of Chicago's finest pursued some gangbangers down an alley. The gangbangers were armed with an AK style rifle (I doubt it was an actual selectfire weapon). They were armed with only their handguns which are DAO guns in 9mm, .40S&W, or .45 ACP. The officers do not have access to old shotguns that are probably older than I am. They have been asking for patrol rifles for a long time. The only units that have them are SWAT units. I do believe they have a unit called TRU (Tactical Response Unit) that may have some access to long-arms and which wears BDU style uniforms. They saturate areas shootings and other outbreaks of gang activity or violence.
There has also been a recent upstream in violence as the weather gets nicer outside. The officers are brave people who are trying to do the best they can but their hands are tied by the politicians who run the city, county, and state governments. It is these politicians that put the gun laws into place and force them down out throats. It is also these politicians that have destroyed the morale and city of Chicago through corruption, crime, and being greedy. These problems are why Chicago Police use outdated cars, computers, and have shotguns that were built in the seventies and eighties, have shotgun shells over seven years old for the guns, have less training than other departments, have no FOP contract, and have let Chicago lose the status as the greatest city on Earth. I love Chicago and my dream is to work amongst the esteemed men and women of the Chicago Police Department but not for the politicians that destroyed that department and city.
Another poster mentioned a blog called http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/ as a source for information. If you read the blog and the comments you will find a lot of pro-gun rhetoric and anti-Democrat rhetoric beside it. The majority of the people who frequent that blog are disgusted that you and I are not allowed to carry defensive weapons, purchase "assault weapons" in Chicago proper and Cook county, and have to register their guns. In this blog we have a friend and an anonymous informant in the Chicago Police Department who is willing to spill the beans on Mayor Daley, Jody Weiss, Phil Cline, and the alderman who really run the city by ensuring that Mayor Daley gets his votes.
A great example of this is Jody Weiss and his new position. Jody is a retired FBI agent who is now running a police department. The second largest police department in the country,on paper it is 14,000 officers but in reality it is 9,000 officers. (These people are working at a huge shortage of officers and deserve to be commended for it not mocked because they cannot do as good a job as we demand!) According to the blog, Daley chose Jody Weiss because it will keep the FBI and other Federal Investigators happy and the heat off some of the corruption found in the police department and their cronyism. It seems Jody has created quite a stir with his comments recently.
Such as his desire to arm the officers with a uniform sidearm (undetermined make and manufacturer but I am going to guess Glock) instead of allowing them to purchase Sigarms, Smith and Wesson, Glock, Springfield XD, Beretta, or Ruger guns that are DAO. This upset some as they will have lost an investment because they buy their own guns a duty belts. They do get a uniform allowance but it is not much.
His desire for fitness standards, which is good in some ways. However the department did hire them on with out them and it can cause some FOP trouble. It also does not take into affect that they are working 6 days on and off 2 days as well as court on some days. Keep in mind that the court is in addition to their shift and can be right in the middle of their offtime.
In addition to this many officers are working second jobs because they don't want their children to attend the shameful public schools in Chicago. They are also forced to live in Chicago while other city employees are not. Chicago is an expensive city to live in.
All they really want to do is be police and they are having a hard time doing it because of the same people who are screwing us Illinois gun owners as well.
So cut them some slack. Check out the link I posted earlier and read the comments found therein. Keep in mind that the comments may contain quite a bit of four letter words.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
