Child killed by police shooting at snake.

[XavierBreath]

Doc, you are making good points on the Animal Control.

Still, that does not provide an excuse for the use of a firearm in that instance, in that location. Even if the snake were hit by a 9mm bullet, shooting upwards, there would be no backstop for the bullet. The bullet would perforate the viper and keep traveling. The decision to use the gun shows either a misunderstanding or a disregard for basic gun safety.

If the snake were on the ground, I could understand the use of a pistol. Even then though, a hoe would be preferable, assuming the snake even needed to be killed. Far to many snakes die due to frantic misidentification. As a result, rats multiply.

While the officers are not Animal Control officers, they are the custodians of their sidearms. They are responsible for the weapons, and the bullets inside the weapons. The officer, being trained to safely use his weapon, should not have used it in this instance. There was not a sufficient backstop, and the danger of the snake's presence was not threatening enough to take that kind of chance. The decision to use the pistol was a bad decision, and the officer is responsible for that decision, whether he has a snake phobia or not. As Kay Miculek once told me, every bullet in your gun has a lawyer attached to it. It's a sobering thought.

Murph50, I wonder, could a stiff fishing rod with the line looped back through the top eyelet be used as an improvised catch pole on a snake?

 

[joab]

This to me is also a perfect opportunity to point out inconsistencies in reporting and why there is always a call for more info in these types of threads

I also am a nuisance wildlife trapper

Not only would we never shoot a snake in the rafters, we are not even allowed to have firearms on our trucks

I do but it's a secret

Catch poles and snake tongs are it for us
Sealing the snake in is also a very good option

One thing not mentioned yet is that it is very atypical behavior for a rattlesnake to climb a house
Low lying trees and shrubs maybe but not houses
If this snake was as big as it seems to be I would almost guarantee that a thick heavy bodied snake like that would not be able to climb up to rafters

 

[murph50]

Xavierbreath
On a small snake maybe. I would think that the fishing line would be too thin and would likely get tangled easily and /or cut the snake. I have made several of my own catchpoles by screwing an eyehook on the end of a pole--tying a piece of rope to the eyehook then feed the rope through the pole so the rope can be tightened. If a fishing pole has large enough eyelets I would think it would be better to tie a piece of rope to the end of the pole and then feed the rope back through the eyelets.

 

[XavierBreath]

I was just trying to think of something that could be quickly improvised in the moment of crisis Murph. Perhaps a piece of 3/4 PVC pipe and 1/4 inch rope would be better, assuming the PVC and rope was available.

It would be bad if the fishing rod flexed back at you, wouldn't it?

 

[murph50]

It would be bad if the fishing rod flexed back at you, wouldn't it?

Yea --sometimes the best option is to just run away from the snake--LOL
And yes --the PVC and rope would work. That might be a good thing to carry with your fishing gear

 

[revjen45]

Single-projectile (i.e. non-shot) loads don't seem to be the right tool for snakes. I watched a fellow who was out plinking with us wig out at the sight of a rattlesnake on the ground in front of him and empty the 15-rd mag of an M-1 carbine at it. Every shot missed at less than 10 feet, and he was less than careful about where he was shooting and where the rest of the party was. Since we were out in the open country he should have just avoided stepping on it and both could have gone their ways in peace. As mentioned in an earlier post, some people have an unreasonable fear of snakes and react irrationally.

 

[tulsamal]

So from the story, the police shot up into the rafters. The bullet went through the roof, reached its apex and then began its descent. And by the time it reached the child, it had enough velocity/energy to kill the child.

I don't think that's quite right. If the bullet had gone that far, it would have had far less energy. The story says the bullet penetrated both sides of the boy's skull. That bullet didn't fly a mile and then do that. My personal guess is they were within a couple hundred yards and just couldn't be seen because of vegetation.

On a positive note, we all need to learn from something like this. I've already sat my nine year old boy down and told him this story. I made some mistakes when I was that age with a pellet rifle. He needs to understand "the rules" aren't just stupid ideas made up by old people. If you don't follow them, people can very well get killed.

Channel 8 in Tulsa last night had the story but at the time I was totally confused. They started the story saying it was suspected that a cop had shot this boy. But then they interviewed the grandfather. He told the whole story but without mentioning the cops at all. And then they finished the story. Without once mentioning why they thought cops had shot the boy?! When it ended, I was yelling at the screen. It's like somebody was so afraid of saying something wrong that they just cut everything except the grandfather interview. Weird. If I hadn't read the story here, I wouldn't have understood what happened at all.

Gregg

 

[BBQJOE]

I have a home in the desert. We have rattlers around many times during the year.
The old adage of they are as afraid of you as you are of them is true.
When we first moved into the desert, we killed every single one we saw.
The next few seasons were wrought with mouse and rat damage.
The rats were so prolific and destructive you just wouldn't believe it.
They will move into a car that hasn't been in use, and completely chew up every single wire in the engine compartment.
They will turn the whole engine area into a nest. Packing it with cactus, sticks, dung, and eventually tear the upholstery apart for nesting material.

We decided after that, we would not kill snakes again. They do have a job to perform.

That said, some people do absolutely freak out at the sight of a snake causing radical behavior. As long as you stay away from the sharp end you are fine.

I have had some that I could not snare and move to an out of the way place.
The best option I found was bird shot from a .22 pistol.
Very effective without any long range travel.

Did this snake need to be killed?
I seriously doubt it.

It goes to show that just because you have a gun, it is not always the appropriate tool for a given job.

 

[Geno]

Agreed Re responsibility for controlling the rounds but I am trying to keep discussion 100% positive or neutral, and therefore discuss only alternatives or possibile what-ifs.

I personally have used a garden rake for dispatching snakes that would not depart the area. My experience indicates that most snakes have no more desire to be near humans that what my Grandfather had desire to be near them. A garden rake works great for picking them up and moving them, and that's a lot of handle for distance. I have no doubt my Grandfather would use the tong end to mince them though.

Edit to add, thanks to the Animal Control experts for their factual experiences and thoughts. Thanks to all for keeping this thread positive.

 

[RubenZ]

Single-projectile (i.e. non-shot) loads don't seem to be the right tool for snakes. I watched a fellow who was out plinking with us wig out at the sight of a rattlesnake on the ground in front of him and empty the 15-rd mag of an M-1 carbine at it.

That Fellow needs shooting lessons

For snake killing I usually use my side-arm. In this case it was a 9mm Ruger. One shot, nice clean kill to the head. Snake was in excellent skinning, eating condition after.

Keep in mind fellows. That Rattlers have been known to willingly follow you to try and bite you. In that case, trust me, like said above, single projectiles are VERY HARD to use.


This story is very very tragic.The way it was executed was wrong on so many levels. For starters, snakes are NOT that dangerous. Any household tool could have done the job way better and that young boy would be enjoying more fishing trips right now.

 

[hso]

I've merged the two threads on this tragedy.

There isn't anything to be said that hasn't been said in the discussion of this event. Pest control options. Negligent use of a firearm resulting in the death of an innocent. Negligence on the part of the Department for possibly not providing training when making animal control an additional duty of the LEOs and possible negligence in firearms safety. The possible civil and criminal consequences of the negligent homicide. The ethical and moral responsibility that comes with carrying a firearm. The overwhelming tragedy of it all.

All we have left is to offer support in our individual ways for those that need it and for all of us to learn from this tragic lesson so we're never part of the cause for such a loss.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

I don't think this has been said

I don't think this has been said.

There is a strong argument that when shots are falling around you
move fast and far first

- then start yelling or whatever seems appropriate.

Anybody disagree? Compare with move off the spot in force on force training.

Sometimes in the hunting or plinking field the shots may be coming from some distance and the shooter will keep shooting - and not hear or respond to shouts or whistles or waving flags - notice that it is unwise in the deer woods to wave a white flag.

As for snakes in the yard a sharp hoe has always worked for me and mine; in the fields and woods sometimes walking around instead of stepping over and into a blind spot is a good idea.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I am thinking it was not something that was straight up, it was more like a 45 degree or less I am thinking.


I noticed this locked at one time

The whole thing (shooting at a snake above your head) is beyond comprehension for me, to be honest.

I could see it if I had the revolver I have mentioned in a prior post. Otherwise, no.

Sort of reminds me of people shooting at birds in the trees etc.

 

[Geronimo45]

some people have an unreasonable fear of snakes and react irrationally.

Some people have seen Snakes On A Plane, and/or Indiana Jones.

Should LEOs carry shotshells for their pistols, or say #8 shot for their shotguns? And if so, what other unforeseen situation might next arise requiring yet other ammo or weapons?

Good question. I'd advocate a packet of snakeshot for the issue handguns, I guess... calls for snake removal would probably be in situations where using a hoe would be difficult, and likely where a shotgun would be unwieldy. Snake under the couch, in the kitchen cabinet. Also think that using buckshot in that situation would've surely killed the snake... and probably blown the birdhouse apart. That's obviously of much less importance than the kid's life - but what the officer(s) saw only involved getting rid of the snake without doing too much damage to civvie property.

Of course, you could have a department-issued cat (in tactical black for the big cities).

 

[Cannonball888]

The LEOs overreacted in this situation through irrational fear. As mentioned earlier the snake should have been removed by professionals who have training and knowledge rather than only fear of these creatures.

I never shot or killed a snake out of fear because I never have feared them. I was an exotic venomous snake breeder for five years back when I was single. I bred everything from rattlesnakes and cobras to african vipers. Rattlesnakes are lap dogs compared to some.

 

[jaholder1971]

This shooting was stupid as well as criminal and it matters not who did it.

Whoever did do it needs to stand tall in front of a judge and jury.

 

[hso]

I want to compliment everyone so far in remembering that we keep discussions about tragedies like this civil, even when we can relate to the grief of the parents and the horror of having this happen to a child of ours.

Well done, folks.

 

[3006mv]

Animal Control Officers or private pest control operators or USDA Wildlife Specialists would catch snakes with snake tongs and snake hooks some brave ones just use bare hands and then put the snake in a bucket w/ a locking lid. If they have access to firearms it is usually a shotgun.

 

[Picknlittle]

Funny thing about Tennessee,...snakes are protected by law. I didn't know that until a few days ago when I was researching venomous snakes in middle TN.

Can't say as I'd let that tidbit stop me from poppin a copperhead or three.

I guess they had to pass such a law to protect TN politicians and lawyers.

 

[eric.cartman]

We are the ONLY ones professional enough to kill a snake...

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

What a terrible waste of a life

 

[Elza]

re: LEO’s as animal control

In our town (20 to 25 thousand residents) animal control is only available from 8 to 5. After hours and on weekends it falls to the LEO’s. I suspect that this is more common than people realize.

 

[waterhouse]

Just out of curiosity, do any LEOs here have any small shot available for their issue shotguns?

We were only permitted to carry issued ammunition, which for us was low recoil buck. I'm just wondering if anyone has something like 7.5 available for such an odd situation.

Thoughts and prayers go out to the family, what a terrible thing to happen.

As for animal control and LEOs, we've had deer get stuck on or in our fence a couple times, and wounded deer hit in or near the neighborhood. The Sheriff's Office always responds. Once when the stuck deer was freaking out, the SO called an animal control expert who told him to put a bag over the deer's head and compress the ribcage by hand and back the deer out the way it went in. This method worked very well. My only point is that around here the LEOs usually respond for animal related stuff, but at least they have someone they can call if things get beyond their knowledge base.

 

[Deanimator]

Unlike a lot of recent incidents, I don't see malice in this case, merely gross negligence.

People who know me, know I'm exceptionally hard on the police when they misbehave. In this case, I'm not sure the cop should go to jail. He HAS to be fired though, because he's an extreme menace to the public at large, both because of his egregious gun handling skills and his utter lack of judgement. As long as he's drawing a city paycheck and toting a gun, the public should rightfully have doubts about the quality of the adult supervision of that force. He needs to take a huge financial hit. His alleged remorse, even if it's real, does nothing for the family. Since he can't bring the kid back, he has to feel SOME pain for his stupidity.

As for the department, I'm sure a quick perusal of their firearm training POI would tell an interesting tale. If it doesn't include the NRA fundamentals of shooting, at least in administrative situations, they're negligent.

 

[obxned]

At very least, these incompetent idiots need serious jail time.

 

[Autolycus]

In my hometown the animal control officers were fully sworn LE officers with extra training. It was like a K9 officer, an investigator, or other specialized officer.

I remember that if the animal was seen as harmless they would have community service officers (basically kids who wanted to be cops) chase down the dogs and cats. Then once they got them the animal control officer would come and collect the animal.

Either way I dont think the officer intended to kill the child and that the officers in question should have exercised better judgement. I do expect the town to be sued as it is a horrible tragedy and the officers could have used another of other options that were less risky to others.