"Cocked and Locked" Carry -- Some Thoughts

[ForeignDude]

Long intro, bear with me...

I am a newbie to the world of firearms, and I am solidly in touch with my inner self to know that I have been brainwashed by many years of "guns are evil" messages plus ignorance of firearms overall. Keep in mind, I'm not like you older folks, who grew up with guns and saw "cocked and locked" 1911s carried on many hips.

So, I've been wracking my brains trying to find ways to obtain and carry a pistol that will be "safe" for me and mine, but will be "unsafe" for anyone trying to hurt me or mine. So, I've researched the various trigger mechanisms out there: DA/SA, SA, DAO, XD's USA, Glock's system, etc. I can't convey to you the anxiety I've lived through trying to find the perfect pistol. What about DA/SA: well, the first trigger pull is hard on virtually all models, but it's that first bullet that may save your life. But the devil's bargain is that if I modify/lighten the trigger, and I get sued after a self-defense scenario, I'm handling all my money to the plaintiff's attorney on a silver platter... DAO: which one? etc., etc. Alright, that's the emotional part...

The experiential/logical part is simple: I can shoot the hell out of a "cocked and locked" CZ 75B (SA), far better than any other handgun out there. I own an FNP-9 and I shoot it well, but there is no comparison.

OK, so here it is: I'm talking myself up to a CZ 75 compact, which I want to carry "cocked and locked". I know it's safe, and I know that I will make that first shot count for all it's worth. Since it's designed to be carried in Condition 1 from the factory, it increases my chances of fighting off a criminal or civil suit successfully (no guarantees, mind you).

But, then I thought about it. Actually, my fear of "cocked and locked" carry is a good thing. Follow my logic here: if you continue to fear the damage that a handgun can do, you will always be careful in its handling. It is only when we become complacent, when we lull ourselves into a sense of omnipotence regarding that pistol, that "accidents" tend to happen. The same kind of logic holds for the Glock pistol, I think.

So, I had an epiphany last night: carry "cocked and locked" and know that the pistol is on safe; accept your fear, and tread carefully each time you handle the pistol.

Thoughts?

 

[mete]

I carry a HK P7 which eliminates man problems !! I don't fear a loaded gun , I respect it . The 1911 is very safe , to fire you have to depress the grip safety, depress the thumb safety and pull the trigger. The most important safety is the one between your ears, that better work or the others are of no use !!! One other thing for carry guns , make sure you have a holster made for the gun and do not modify the gun with things like extended safeties and trigger shoes ,holsters are not designed for them.

 

[Fake Name]

Welcome to the HighRoad ForiegnDude. I am also Newbie on the the forum but not guns.

I think in some respects your fears of "cocked and locked" are reasonable. Usually if the hammer is back on any type of firearm it means its ready to fire. It must be something on a deep level that affects us gunnies - hammer back, ready to fire... I used to carry a HK USP .45 in this condition. Never a problem but I just couldn't get right with it.

Keep in mind that there are holsters available for this type of carry. They usually have a thumb strap that will go behind the slide and in front of the hammer. Maybe this type of set up would give you peace of mind. I have been through many guns trying to find the "perfect" gun/trigger. For me I finally settled on the Glock. I like the trigger and I like the consistency. Of course the Glock trigger took a while to get used to, I also could shoot the heck out of a SA/DA auto but most people can due to the short trigger travel and lighter trigger pull in this mode.

I guess what I'm trying to say is try what your most comfortable with and build from there. You'll find what works the best for you. It's just a matter of time.

Best of luck!

 

[T J]

I guess I went through a similar process when I was looking to get a carry gun. I had shot guns for many years before I started carrying them, and it was one thing to be out shooting and put a cocked and locked in a holster for a few minutes and another to just carry it around in that condition to my mind at the time. What got me over this way of thinking was that I would shoot a model 41 Smith & Wesson .22 auto, and think nothing of putting the safety on and sticking it in a holster because it has a concealed hammer. Now I finally got to thinking this is exactly the same as cocked and locked execpt you can't see the hammer back. And on top of it, the Mod 41 only has the thumb safety where as a 1911 has that safety plus a grip safety and a firing pin safety (on the Series 80). So a 1911 has more built in safety features, but I was more worried about it at first than a pistol with less built in safety features due to the sight of an exposed hammer. After I rationalized this to my self, I soon got over being uncomfortable with cocked and locked on a 1911. This is now the only way I carry one. I like the 1911 due to the simplicity of operation and consistent trigger pull. Just my thoughts.

 

[Baba Louie]

Thoughts?

Concur.
Also, get formal training using your "Deadly cocked and locked, ready to kill... er, defend" handgun. Documented training using the same gun if possible (same style at least) showing you've safely passed a rigorous class putting thousands of rounds downrange, accurately, safely, all the while C&L (or DA... it never hurts to be good at both), right handed, left handed.

The training should help negate any future Ass't DA painting you as a bloodthirsty homicidal avenger who carries his weapon in a dangerous mode ("So dangerous, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, that Police Officers shudder at the thought of such designs and many are forbidden to carry these implements of death" ).

As a newb, may I offer one more bit of unsolicited advice? Have a second backup handgun for your primary carry. Should you use it, it will become evidence and will be taken away. Maybe forever. Maybe not.
And finally (will he ever shut up?), in a stress mode where fine motor skills go out the window and you revert to your training, know that there is a place for a good DA/SA handgun, ala SIG or S&W, etc., and that under the adrenal dump the initial 9/10# DA trigger pull will more than likely never be felt at all and your thumb won't have to search for it's "safety in off" mode while your trigger finger awaits it's turn.

The key, of course (to me) is training. With whatever choice you've made. Revolver, SA, DAO, DA/SA. Repetition. Subconcious action while your mind is sorting out the target selection data while you move.

 

[buzz_knox]

Thoughts? I think you've gone through a rather logical process and have come to an excellent conclusion.

I second the recommendation for training. It is necessary to reach the skill level you'll want and need, and will help you protect yourself on the street or in court better.

 

[Onmilo]

Thoughts?
Here's my thought on the matter.
If you are unwilling to carry a 1911 type pistol condition one, cocked and locked, where situation and legallity allow, then you have no business carrying a 1911 type pistol in the first place.

 

[Mad Magyar]

Remember, years ago, Law Enforcement abandoned Cond. 1 pistols mainly for two reasons: accidental discharges & public perception. Having said this, the public is carrying concealed, so need to fear the reaction of a cocked hammer. Whatever you do, if your pistol is capable of a half-cock position:
Do Not carry that way....
Think it out, do what you feel is comfortable with safety in mind, not with all the advice you'll get from many of us....

 

[Grayrider]

I will say that the 1911 C&L is a little different than guns lacking a grip safety. Essentially the 1911 has two manual safeties keeping the gun from firing when the trigger is pulled. I personally won't carry a pistol C&L that does not have the manual safety. I have carried 1911s for many years and a few times did find the safety lever off in the holster. As one moves around it can happen. It did not worry me a bit as the grip safety was doing its job. Had it been a CZ pattern gun, there would have been nothing preventing the gun from going off if something bumped the trigger. True, that is not likely but one never knows. Plenty of Glocks have gone bang due to that happening.

Magyar, I have to ask why you say no half cock? Some guns are intended to be carried that way to keep the hammer off the firing pin, and some pistols can be carried in half-cock and on safe. Is there something I did not know? No offense meant, I really am curious.

John

 

[Mad Magyar]

I cannot account for all pistols & mfgr's by saying this, maybe there are exceptions.The hammer at half cock is simply there to prevent the gun from going fully automatic should the full cock notch break.
A blow to a half cocked hammer can discharge the pistol. Of the two choices, the best method would be to carry fully cocked & locked but only if you are going to put enough practice to ensure that you can disengage the hammer safely.

 

[Grayrider]

Ah, I see. You are referring to guns without a firing pin safety that prevents this event. Good observation. I know a fellow that shot himself when the hammer of his pistol hit the firing pin when dropped. Hard lesson in safe gun handling.

John

 

[AnthonyRSS]

But, then I thought about it. Actually, my fear of "cocked and locked" carry is a good thing. Follow my logic here: if you continue to fear the damage that a handgun can do, you will always be careful in its handling. It is only when we become complacent, when we lull ourselves into a sense of omnipotence regarding that pistol, that "accidents" tend to happen. The same kind of logic holds for the Glock pistol, I think.

Familarity breeds contempt.

Anthony

 

[Walkalong]

Cocked and Locked is absolutely safe with the 1911. I don't know about other guns. Those afraid of Cocked and Locked with the 1911 do not understand the mechanics of the gun.

 

[SWMAN]

What about the Sig P220 SAO (single action only). It has a saftey that you can engage while either loading or unloading a live round into or out of the chamber. It also has a saftey feature that prevents it from going off if dropped. However, it has no grip safety.

 

[Alerion]

What about the Sig P220 SAO (single action only). It has a saftey that you can engage while either loading or unloading a live round into or out of the chamber. It also has a saftey feature that prevents it from going off if dropped. However, it has no grip safety.

I like the decockers on the DA/SA SIGs vs. using a safety. But it still pretty much comes down to personal preference.

Tom

 

[dairycreek]

[/So, I had an epiphany last night: carry "cocked and locked" and know that the pistol is on safe; accept your fear, and tread carefully each time you handle the pistol.

Thoughts?
QUOTE]

Many years ago I was really skeptical about carrying a 1911 in the "cocked and locked" mode. I just kept seeing that cocked hammer looming and my confidence was really shaken.

What I did was to carry the 1911 C&L with no round in the chamber. I walked, sat, ran, danced, climbed ladders, ran down stairs, jumped up and down, and so on for a long, long time - or so it seemed to me. Of course absolutely nothing happened - ever

After convincing myself that that hammer was always going to stay in place I did the same, but with a round in the chamber. That was over thirty years ago and, to this day, I carry "cocked and locked" with absolute confidence.

There was never anything wrong with carrying C&L but my head took some convincing - and, for me, it worked.

 

[Mad Magyar]

Not to hijack ForeignDude’s post, but the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail. Also, on any used pistol, definitely not a good idea since you don’t know, unless you check; whether “Bubba” has been at work on the sear or that it is possibly defective. Pistols, like the “Series 80” type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when hit with a good blow. This would include guns from SA and modern production Colts.
A moderator on a 1911 forum intentionally dropped a few pistols at the half-cocked position and found that G.I’s & Norinco hammer did not fall, but the SA and a RIA did….

 

[Wordsmith]

I carry all of my USP pistols cocked and locked, and have absolutely no concerns doing so from either a safety standpoint or a legal one. Like other people have mentioned, some weapons are designed to be carried this way. I wouldn't ever recommend cocked and locked carry without a manual safety.

I used to carry a Glock 19 or a Glock 26. A round was always chambered, and I've always felt that these pistols are quite safe when handled properly. Obviously, thousands of law enforcement agencies feel the same way. But are they somehow safer than a 1911 carried in Condition 1 or a HK USP cocked and locked? I don't think so. The "problem" is one of perception.

The truth is that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is not really any different from carrying a Springfield XD with a round in the chamber. Technically, the XD is a single-action pistol, and the striker is pre-cocked whenever a round is chambered. The biggest difference is one of appearance: sheeple can't see a hammer on the XD, and therefore the perception is that it is somehow safer.

There are no problems with SA, DA/SA, DAO, or Condition 1 carry that can't be remedied with proper training.

 

[Walkalong]

The truth is that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked is not really any different from carrying a Springfield XD with a round in the chamber. Technically, the XD is a single-action pistol, and the striker is pre-cocked whenever a round is chambered. The biggest difference is one of appearance: sheeple can't see a hammer on the XD, and therefore the perception is that it is somehow safer.

Amen brother.

 

[shield20]

On the CZ, make sure the thumb safety is large enough to be manipulated to off when you need to - w/o ANY fumbling, hesitation, slippage, etc. My RAMI's was too small - NO way I would have carried that C&L fro SD, which left me with a SA/DA that I HAD to lower the hammer manually over a loaded chamber - now THAT is something worth being respectfull of. I know all about the inertia firing pin, the 1/2 cock etc., the fp safety, but bottom line there is nothing preventing a ND except for my grip on the hammer as I lower it.

A 1911 was much better suited to condition 1 vs that model.

 

[boogalou]

Concerning cocked & locked on a CZ and 1911 model......

They both have a safety that blocks the sear, and a half-cock notch on the hammer if the sear fails. The difference is that the 1911 relies on a grip safety to block the trigger, and the CZ relies on a firing pin block that is only inactivated if the trigger is pulled. The newer model 1911's also have a firing pin block, so I would say the modern 1911 is safer.

 

[Black Snowman]

When I bought my 1st handgun I went through some "soul searching" as well. I finally determined that I couldn't trust any "safety" device beyond what's between my ears. I ended up going with a Glock as my 1st handgun. Since then I've found I generally shoot CZs better and learned to be comfortable with condition 1 carry with both my CZs and my Glocks. With a proper holster, I'm not even concered if the safety gets swiped off (which hasn't happened yet).

I have come to the conclusion that in the event you actually need to defend yourself, by definition you've decided the most dangerous thing is the threat, and safety features, overpenetration, liability, all take a back seat to stopping that threat. So, I want what I believe will be the most effective combination I can bring to bear if that kind of confrontation becomes unavoidable.

The thing you run out of first in a gunfight is time. I don't want to compromise my chances of stopping the threat. If you fail, not only may you be hurt, but the threat can go on to hurt others as well. So even though it may have more failsafe safety features, a firearm that's slower to bring to bear in a defensive situation is an unacceptable risk to me. The responsable thing to do is maximize your ability to eliminate a threat.

Keeping your self sharp, including safe gun handling, is part of that responsability. I'm confident that I could carry a SA handgun with no saftey mechanisms at all safely, because I'm confident in my gun handling abilities and carry methods. No number of safety features will save someone from a careless mistake, and no lack of them is an excuse for something happening as a result of unsafe handling.

You asked for my thoughts and there they are. JMHO, YMMV, and all that.

 

[TOADMAN]

I always carry with one in the pipe...For CC, I just use Glocks and S&W revolvers.

 

[tegemu]

I too am a strong believer that a 1911 is the safest pistol to carry cocked and locked, I think even safer than most non 1911's. Another consideration besides thumb safety, grip safety and shooter awareness is that a quality holster will have a groove molded into it that holds the thumb safety in the "SAFE" position. I am adamently against thumb straps unless required by your employer, they just put another impediment in the way of using the pistol for self defense. A good holster provides very adequate retention. I use Brommeland Max Con V's www.brommelandgunleather.com and I believe a gymnast could do his routine with one on and the gun would be perfectly secure, yet the gun is readily accessible.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Foriegn Dude, I read your starter post, and your thinking is correct.