cocked and locked

[lazhuward]

I have to backup Handy here.

About a month ago, I got my first CZ pistol: a CZ-40B. The gun works like many other CZs; you can carry cocked-and-locked, or you can manually decock for a DA first shot.

Initially, the thought of decocking without using a mechanical decocker was very scary! After practicing on an empty chamber for awhile though, I feel confident that I can decock without causing an AD. My CZ has a firing pin block, but I’m not sure that makes much difference in the decocking procedure. It does have an inertial firing pin, like the 1911. You have to pay attention to what you’re doing, and it requires some skill, but manually decocking doesn’t have to be dangerous.

I also don’t think that carrying cocked-and-locked is dangerous.

So, the debate between condition one and condition two carry of a 1911 is not about safety. It’s about which maneuver is easier: thumbing the safety off or cocking the hammer before you fire.

During the first part of the last century, I’d bet that most people thought that hammer down on a loaded chamber was better than cocked-and-locked carry. However, cocked-and-locked seemed to become popular around the ‘60s, and remains so today.

If you can’t flip off the safety easily (as the original poster couldn’t, since he’s left-handed and doesn’t have an ambi safety), then you might want to experiment with condition two carry. Or, if you think that racking the slide is easier than the above two options, then you might consider condition three carry.

 

[SodaPop]

I must admit that I was chicken when i first got my Colt series 80. I was afraid the gun might go off when it was "cocked and locked." I carried it around the house "unloaded" just so I got use to knowing the gun wasn't going to go off unless I de-activated the thumb safety; and pulled the trigger.

I've heard of more AD from Glocks than any other semi-auto out there.

 

[EJ]

Not surprised--

I've heard of more AD from Glocks than any other semi-auto out there.

(SodaPop)





If people carried 1911s around cocked and unlocked they'ld be goin' off too

 

[10-Ring]

It's a relatively inexpensive upgrade to have an ambi-safety installed to your 1911 and condition 1 is the mode of carry it was designed for & most safe in

 

[Mute]

Did I say there was an advantage to condition 3 carry? I said there's no advantage to condition 2.

Cond. 3 requires two hands to make the weapon serviceable.

Big deal. You should use to hands to shoot, if the choice is there. No big deal using two hands to activate the gun. The Israelis do it all the time. BTW, you can use one hand to get a condition 3 gun into ready.

Using the thumb and forefinger, it's almost impossible to screw up.

Tell that to Murphy. (Of Murphy's Law fame, in case you're wondering).

Finally, if you have the hammer down on a live round, now instead of just having to worry about an AD when dropping on muzzle (extremely rare event), you'd also have to worry about bumping the gun on the other end (hammer end).

If you want to talk handling AD's, consider dropping the slide to load the 1911 and sear bounce.

You must be thinking of doing this on an unloaded gun because dropping the slide and letting it pick a round out of the magazine can't generate enough momentum to cause the sear bounce you're referring to.

Lastly, what reason is there to carry in condition 2? If you really need to get the gun into action that quickly, what possible advantage does condition 2 have over condition 1? You think a person who can't safely lower a hammer in calm conditions also can't be trusted to disengage the safety? You're probably right. That person can't be helped with any condition of carry. He should just buy a Glock. A person who practices enough should have no problem with disengaging the thumb safety. That person has no reason I can think of to use condition 2.

Sure, you can lower a hammer on a live round safely. You can also violate any one of the 4 basic rules of gun safety and still be "safe". Doesn't mean you should.

Now as to JMB designing the 1911 to be carried in condition 2. Could the switch to a thumb safety possibly be due to the fact that they had problems with troops carrying in condition 2? Try this excercise. Run around or ride on a horse and try to get the gun into action with a 1911 in condition 1, then in condition 2. Which do you think will be easier? You get a full and properly gripped index with condition 1. You can't do that with condition 2 unless you have really large hands and long fingers.

Now tell me. What reason is there to carry in condition 2?

Yes I do believe that cocked and locked is the best way to carry a single action semi-auto, but if a person is so paranoid as to believe that he shouldn't carry that way, condition 2 is not the way to go.

 

[Edward429451]

Now I'm no expert and I'm not trying to talk anyone into or out of carrying any particular way, I'll leave that to you guys. I would like to make a minor point since condition 2 is being considered.

If you choose to carry cond. 2, is it reasonable to assume that you will practice this 'readiness drill' or whatever by doing it hundreds or thousands of times (dry) while at home etc.?

If no, shame on you. If so...consider that when you thumb cock a 1911 style gun you are dragging metal where it should not be being dragged. (huh?). When you cycle the slide to cock it the disconnector is pushed down disengaging the sear so you have no dragging of metal that destroys your fine trigger job. (I read an article on this a few years ago and am going on memory so go easy on me if I get a point slightly skewed. Maybe a gunsmith type will expound on this issue with greater clarity than I.)

Lots of you guys go for the high end 1911's to 'have the best' and so forth so this may be worth considering if you'd like to keep your trigger in the same shape as when it left Mr. Custom's shop.
In my mind the 1911 is not made to be thumb cocked for this reason. First chambering is done by a cycle of the slide and subsequent shots are self fed through slide function, each time disconnector action disengages the sear allowing it to drop out of contact with the hammer. I hope I got that correct.

You can of course thumb cock to your hearts desire and in a SD situation it probably will not matter one hoot one way or the other in being able to defend yourself. BUT, your 'glass rod' trigger action will go away with each thumb cock. Clarifications welcome.

 

[Handy]

Mute,

You are the one who said cond. 1 OR 3 was preferable to condition 2. So I asked what that advantage is.

Personally, I think Cond. 3 is of little value. You may as well walk around with the mag in a pocket. A pistol is a handgun not a handsgun. You're other hand is for fending off attackers, supporting your body and reloading. If you have the luxury, it can also be used for aiming.

No one is arguing that 2 is better than 1.


As far as sear bounce goes, this is normally experienced during shooting and results in a double. Like loading, that involves chambering a round as well.


If you want to talk about Murphy, why do you carry a gun that has a safety? Get a DAO. I will not accept that a person can train themselves to get the safety off under stress, yet can't manage to carefully lower the hammer in their own home.


As far as drop safety goes, that has been addressed at length already. There is no way a gun dropped hammer down can drive the firing pin up. The firing pin is being driven away from the bullet not toward it.


This is not a safety issue. This is a personal taste thing. There is zero reason that cond. 2 is LESS safe than any other carry mode. The weapon is far more usefull than in Cond. 3, but does not require the handling care of 1.

 

[Hypnogator]

I'll weigh in and answer Gewehr98's post, since no one else bit. I have an early Detonics .45 that I picked up at the factory in Seattle, back when I was a CID Special Agent at Ft. Lewis. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

Anyway, believe it or not, the rear of the slide was beveled, and the hammer unusually shaped so that it could be carried in Condition 2, then cocked by "wiping" the hammer on one's pantsleg. Supposedly done at the suggestion of a potential foreign military buyer, who referred to the old Polish Radom pistol which was configured that way so that Cavalry officers could cock their pistols by "wiping" them on their legs during cavalry charges! Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and I'd much rather have the extra inch of sight radius, but the lowered rear of the slide does make the weapon more concealable in an angled belt holster, as the most critical dimension is the angular distance between a line drawn from the bottom of the muzzle to the butt. Thus, the lowered rear of the slide will cause less of a bulge under the wearer's coat.

One more thing of interest: What you are describing as "Condition 1" is what I was taught was "Condition 1-a." Condition 1 is cocked and unlocked. FWIW, I generally carry my Detonics in Condition 1, as long as I have a holster with a thumb-break strap securely between the hammer and firing pin. And the Detonics doesn't have a grip safety, either. Never had an AD with this carry mode, through years of intermittent carry.

I would second the advice that Michiganfan get an ambidexterous safety, however he may wish to consider carrying his 1911 in true Condition 1, if he has the proper holster and scrupulously obeys the rules of gun safety.

 

[Handy]

I had always heard cocked/unlocked as Condition 0. Some Euro Swat types employed this method with BHPs.