cocked and locked

[michiganfan]

this is sort of a spin off on the condition one thread. what is the danger level of an ND on a typical 1911 when one is in the pipe and the hammer is down instead of cocked and locked. The reason I ask is that I am left handed and it is very awkward to draw and to flip off the safety. i would much perfer to carry the gun chambered hammer down and no safety. Danger and what level?

Follow up level is ther a difference in danger level with a decocker

 

[EJ]

Depends on the 1911--

Some have firing pin safeties-- Others do not--
A series '80 Colt would be relatively safe as the pin is locked untill the trigger is pulled-
A series '70 would be very dangerous--

Depends on the design of the specific 1911

 

[Leibster]

You're probably better off either carrying in condition three, or getting an ambidextrous safety installed on your 1911.

If you already have the gun in a condition where you need to do something to it, you're better off with a larger, gross motor skill motion than with a smaller, fine or complex motor skill (racking the slide vs. cocking the hammer.)

But since your preference seems to be cocked & locked, you'll probably best be served by making the relatively small investment in having an ambi safety installed on your 1911.

--Leibster

 

[Jim Watson]

Contrary to EJ, a pre-'80 1911 (not all of which are '70s) is not particularly dangerous with the hammer all the way down on a loaded chamber. The inertial firing pin was long considered an adequate protection and is, if the firing pin spring is good. Before Jeff Cooper named it Condition Two, it was known as the Mexican carry because of its supposed popularity south of the border.

GETTING the hammer down on a loaded chamber is the first trick. COCKING the hammer to shoot is the second trick.

Condition Three - magazine loaded, chamber empty is ok, may be better, IF you are SURE you will have both hands free to rack the slide.

Best is an ambidextrous safety. But you have to have a good one. A safety adequate for an occasional weak handed drill by a right hander might not hold up to steady use by a lefty. A southpaw of my acquaintance went through two or three before I got him onto the King's which has better retention and stabilization than the usual tab under the right grip panel.

If you really worry about it, get a Sig Sauer or some such and don't try to make do with a 1911 you are not using in its most efficient form.

 

[EJ]

Contrary to Jim
Older 1911s can and do go off when dropped on their muzzle--
To me that's dangerous-- You're entitled to a varied opinion--

And as Jim allowed-- Getting the hammer down on a loaded older 1911 is also tricky-- I also would call this dangerous--

Just be aware that there is no firing pin lock or anything else, other than simple inertia keeping the firing pin away from the primer and discharge on a series'70 or older 1911 style auto--

 

[M1911]

MichiganFan: Get yourself to a gunsmith and have him install an ambidextrous safety. It doesn't cost that much.

 

[Sean Smith]

I would suggest getting an abidextrous safety so you can use the gun in the most efficient manner, i.e. cocked and locked.

 

[WonderNine]

The 1911 also have a grip safety, which ads a redundant amount of safety to an already safe design.

Holsters I would use for a BHP or 1911 would also have a piece of leather blocking the hammer from the firing pin.

 

[DeltaElite]

As long as the finger stays off of the trigger, until you desire to destroy something in front of the weapons muzzle, there is minimal danger.
My two 1911's are series 80's. Both are Delta's, but I don't have a concern about carrying a series 70 weapon.

Don't worry, be happy and use whichever you desire.

 

[tetchaje1]

Series 70 a disaster waiting to happen, heh?

Maybe I had better sell off that new Series 70 Razorback that I ordered...

 

[EJ]

I just don't think a series '70 gun is the best choice for "Hammer down" carry--

I have a series '70 Pin gun and would carry it anywhere -- confidently --
But I would carry it cocked and locked--

That was the initial post question--
I am a big 1911 fan -- new or old--

 

[Cal4D4]

tetchaje1:
If you want to bring it to Kali for a face to face transfer, I'm your huckleberry.

 

[Croyance]

Many 1911 models come with ambidextrous safeties already in box. As was said, the trick is to decock a 1911. The grip safety actually makes it more clumsy. I don't believe a hammer down 1911 is safer. Not all 1911's have firing pin safeties, so it doesn't seem advisable.
As for a decocker (not in any 1911 single action variant I know of), it does not bypass any trigger safety. I assume this is for a DA/SA like a CZ-75 or Beretta. These guns typically have firing pin safeties and are designed to allow hammer down carry.

 

[45auto]

As many have said, I think the 1911 is not the best choice if you want to carry hammer down with no safety. In fact, it would be my last choice in that manner.

The Para LDA style guns may be better if you want a 1911 "style" feel with a double action type of trigger.

Otherwise any "modern" double/safe action gun would be better.

Good luck

 

[Gewehr98]

Anybody remember the little Detonics .45's?

With their goofy forward-mounted rear sights and cut-away slide behind the sights? Just a few guesses as to why that rear sight and slide was modified that way- anybody? Buehler, Buehler?

 

[Handy]

EJ,

The danger of a muzzle drop AD has nothing to do with the position of the hammer. A cocked and locked series 70 will fire if dropped hard enough on the muzzle because the impact is driving the firing pin, not the hammer. In Cond 2, the hammer is already as far forward as it's going to get, it can't drive the firing pin any further.


Cond. 2 always upsets 1911 buffs. It's a silly worry:

1. If you can't trust yourself to safely lower the hammer in a benign environment, why do you trust yourself to operate the safety in a gunfight? Think about it. Take your time and use both hands.

2. The 1911 was designed with an inertial firing pin so it could be carried hammer down and be drop resistant on the hammer. JMB and the Army Cavlary assumed it would be carried Cond. 2, Cond. 1 being a later "innovation".

3. Plenty of other guns were also designed to by manually decocked on to an inertial firing pin without a block. The older CZ-75 and Beretta 92 being two prominent examples.

This rampant hoplophobia in the 1911 crew is really surprising.


Carry the gun hammer down if you want- that's the way guns of this type have been carried for most of the century. It's still a better method cond.3 and needing two hands. An ambi safety is also a great idea.

 

[Sean Smith]

So is the "rampant holophobia" of the "Cocked and Locked is SCARY" crew. Not saying YOU are one, Handy, just a general observation.

 

[tetchaje1]

EJ,
I think that anybody who is familiar with the design of the 1911 will agree that it is far more dangerous to carry Cond. 2 than Cond. 1. because you have to pull the trigger in order to get the hammer to drop down to the resting position. Whether it is Series 80 or Series 70 doesn't matter in this case because when pulling the trigger on the 80 the firing pin block is disengaged anyway. I would never under any circumstances advocate Cond. 2 carry for that reason.

If the people here don't feel comfortable with seeing the hammer back on their 1911, perhaps they should reconsider their choice of carry weapon, or at the very least, they should carry Cond. 3. However, this is far slower to get into action than a DA/SA or DAO weapon where you just draw and pull the trigger.

We like the 1911 because there are few other choices out there that have such a positive trigger engagement for the first shot. I'm no slouch with my SIG or my HK, but it just isn't a 1911 trigger.

If you like Series 70 1911s (like me ) then you just make fer durn sure that you recognize its weaknesses and adjust your gun handling to account for them.

 

[Mute]

Condition 1 or condition 3. Forget about the "experts" who proclaim the greatness of condition 2 carry. No reason for it. No benefit. No advantage. Plenty of disadvantages.

 

[EJ]

I personally feel more comfortable with ANY 1911 in ANY condition of carry than a GLock-- (oops now I get flamed )
Just me-- And I love my Series '70 guns as well as my series '80.

Just keep your finger off the trigger and any 1911 is safe--
I do prefer cocked and locked carry--
But-- it did/does cause civillian consternation by the uninformed when you carry Cocked and Locked in uniform--
That's not a problem for me anymore--

I'm a CPA now -- So I don't have to worry if others think my openly carried cocked and locked 1911 is safe or not-- I don't have to walk around that way any more-- :

 

[TheFrontRange]

Only a handful of times when I've carried my 1911 around in a fanny pack that was NOT around my waist have I gone Condition Three; otherwise, it's cocked-and-locked carry for me in a strong-side OWB holster. Also when the weapon is not on my person, i.e., "put up" at home in between outings or overnight, I do put it in Condition Three.

Along the lines of EJ's comments in a previous post, I have had someone at the range ask me if I knew what I was doing, "handling that gun of mine with the hammer cocked back like that all the time."

Manipulating a 1911 into and out of Condition Two is not something I've ever even attempted...there's just no reason for it for me.

 

[Handy]

Mute,

Could you touch on some of the "advantages" of condition 3 over cond. 2?

As I understand it, both conditions involve an uncocked mainspring, making handling ND's almost impossible in both cases.

Cond. 3 requires two hands to make the weapon serviceable. What is the advantage?


Are you guys really that scared of manually lowering a hammer? There are several classes of weapons where this is the only safe carry option (revolvers, CZ-75, lever rifles, shotguns with hammers).

If you want to talk handling AD's, consider dropping the slide to load the 1911 and sear bounce. You are much more likely to have the weapon go off during this process than carefully lowering the hammer.

I'm not really for or against cond. 2 in this pistol. But the bugaboo that seems to be attached to doing what JMB intended is really ridiculous.

 

[bountyhunter]

"what is the danger level of an ND on a typical 1911 when one is in the pipe and the hammer is down instead of cocked and locked."

A lot of danger in the process of getting the hammer down on a live round. After that, the AD danger is actually pretty low as long as you don't cock it until you are ready to fire. The hammer rests on the frame in the forward position so it will take a good whack and still not propel the firing pin into the hammer. If yours has a series 80 safety, it is impossible to cause the FP to move until the trigger is pulled.

 

[bountyhunter]

"Are you guys really that scared of manually lowering a hammer? There are several classes of weapons where this is the only safe carry option (revolvers, CZ-75, lever rifles, shotguns with hammers)."

The CZ has a frame mounted safety and can be carried cocked and locked. Some models have a decocker.

"If you want to talk handling AD's, consider dropping the slide to load the 1911 and sear bounce. You are much more likely to have the weapon go off during this process than carefully lowering the hammer."

Actually, it's nearly impossible to have a properly set up 1911 discharge that way because even if the hammer bounces away from the sear on the full cock notch, the "half cock" or "safety" notch on the hammer will catch it unless the sear tip has just broken off.

Carefully lowering a hammer is just plain dangerous. You have to thumb the hammer all the way back, then pull the trigger, and then gradually lower the hammer with the thumb. That last step can be the killer if the hammer has oil on it and slips from under the thumb. It can be done, it's just very dangerous.

 

[Handy]

then gradually lower the hammer with the thumb. That last step can be the killer if the hammer has oil on it and slips from under the thumb. It can be done, it's just very dangerous.

You're right, that is stupid and dangerous. But instead of handling the 1911 like Wyatt Earp would, use the off hand to lower the hammer. Using the thumb and forefinger, it's almost impossible to screw up.

The Witness (CZ clone) manual even describes the process. Finger in front of hammer, thumb behind. Once you're beyond the half cock notch the hammer doesn't have enough inertia to drive the firing pin.

The CZ-75 design went 30 years without a decocker and WITH a DA trigger. It's meant to be carried hammer down, it's meant to be decocked manually. So was the 1911. And Beretta/Taurus 92.