Collapsible Batons

[Darkninja]

What is the best brand? Do you carry one? Easy to use?
Both my mother and girlfriend have been asking me about self-defense when running or walking as they often do. The areas they stick to are safe, however it never hurts to have a little insurance. I recommended a collapsible baton to them, however I'm a gun guy and am not too sure what the best brands or styles are.

Thanks in advance guys.

 

[SgtGunner]

I have a 21" and 26" monadondock auto-lock. I use the 21 most of the time for work now. Love the push button feature.

 

[JShirley]

I'm a big fan of the collapsible baton, and would choose ASP. 21" is an excellent all-around length. The manual of arms is fairly simple and easy to learn.

HOWEVER, all of these batons require being fairly close to an assailant. Especially for a defender who's not highly skilled, something that gives more standoff distance is usually much safer. Depending on local laws, if a small firearm is not an option, pepper spray would be my suggestion.

John

 

[ChristopherG]

I agree with John. A baton without training is just a tool for someone bigger and stronger to take away from you. I carry a baton, but I also have a latex dude in my garage bearing the marks of many unpleasant encounters with it. Pepper spray is a much better option for those with limited training.

 

[PandaBearBG]

I say taser, mace, or a small knife. If a woman hit me with a baton who had no training, I'm pretty sure I'd just get annoyed. On the other hand a good tas' would probably make me poop myselft. Well a knife I would think twice and most likely bleed. And if i got mace, even if it didn't take me down, I would be blinded and probably gagging to where they could run away. They have a can of mace that is disguised in a wrist sweatband if they are running, I'll try to find the name of it.

 

[Gordon]

Yeah I don't get it! An LEO can whack the hell out of a perp with a 21" ASP with a nasty knob on the tip which takes divots out of flesh at each hit and you can't slap jack someone whith a smoothly sewn shot loaded 12oz piece of leather! I just DON"T get it?

 

[JHansenAK47]

you can't slap jack someone whith a smoothly sewn shot loaded 12oz piece of leather! I just DON"T get it?

First of all police departments don't issue them anymore so you would be subduing an indvidual with a nonissue weapon. Issue weapons are department sanctioned and officers receive training on their use.
Second point. Tactics for "slaps" and the like usually involve hitting people in the head region because it is more effective than extremeties especially with short impact weapons.
Departments everywhere have pretty much ceased using them officialy because of the liability of hitting a region housing 4 out of 5 senses, your brain and your very important mouth and nasal passages. (need those to breathe and eat)

My suggestion small arms, mace, knives and stun guns. Only if they are legal in you area though. There has been more than one shopowner in New York City prosecuted for shooting robbers during robberies of their own store because they didn't have a gun permit.

 

[Gordon]

I am still a Level one reservist although reduced to a part time Community Service Officer to put in my required 16 hours a month .
I have been a Sherrifs reserve deputy for years and was a Federal LEO in the 70s where I learned how to use a Baton and put in my "stick time" in the New Jersey /NYC area.
Well aware that they don't condone or use saps anymore!
My point is knocking an eye out with an ASP or the nasty wounds a good scrap will leave the detainee with , versus a small lump from a PROPERLY used sap with no sharp edges. You hit the same nerve bundles with a sap to get some one to let go or comply, only exceptional cases do you try to "put someone to sleep" with a sap.

 

[BHP FAN]

I like the idea,but us ''mere civilians'' can't have them here. Probably because of all the drive by batonings!

 

[GoodKat]

An ASP or Monadnock will put some nasty welts on someone, but neither have enough weight behing their swing to be very effective against an enraged(much less a high) opponent. The only collapsible that will help you there is the Peacekeeper RCB, which is large and weighted towards the tip to give it a "straight stick" striking profile, it is also much more durable than it's competitors. I personally wouldn't use any other expandable, especially after reading so many stories on police forums about ASP's being totally innefective and easily bent. Many departments are actually going back to wooden batons due to the lightweight expandable's lackluster results.

 

[JShirley]

There is a difference in the way slaps were used, and the manual of arms for the ASP. ASP doctrine is to hit incoming limbs. NOT body, and NOT head, unless the threat is a potentially lethal one, and the baton-wielder does not have time to transition to firearm.

When I took a certification class years ago, we were told that GA defined collapsible batons, especially used per doctrine, as a "defensive weapon". Don't get me wrong: I believe they can be very effective. They just (IMO) work better for open carry, and as a level in the force continuum.

John

 

[Sav .250]

As some have said, pepper spray,mace ,etc. What ever is legal. IMO, battling up close with a baton is not a good idea for the ladies.

 

[glistam]

I like batons myself, I have two Monadnocks, the 16.75" and the 22".

Absolutely do not carry a baton without some kind of training. You said this is for your mother and girlfriend, do they know how to properly use an impact weapon? I know my own mother and wife would likely flail them wildly and get them pulled out if their hands.

Do not underestimate pepper spray! I carry that too in addition to a baton, because I cannot carry a gun in my state and I need a ranged weapon. A baton requires getting within striking range. And if you don't believe OC works watch this for a good laugh

Also be mindful that attacks on female joggers can often be surprise grabs with the empty hands. A baton is almost useless at close grapple range (though there are a few techniques), particularly from behind. Carl, who is a user on this forum, wrote about his wife being grabbed from behind in a parking lot. She escaped by pulling out a sliding utility knife and slicing his arm open.

All things to consider in this situation.

If you do get a baton, do not get cheap ones that mimic ASPs. They break, bend or jam with two or three hits. My friend learned the hard way. ASPs are friction locked, lighter and collapse more efficiently to smaller sizes. Monadnocks are heavier (hit harder, but also harder to carry), lock mechanically and can be closed with a button. Peacekeeper RCBs are the heaviest, hit the hardest due to the weighting style, but are also quite large and bit bulky to carry.

 

[Darkninja]

Thanks for the input guys. Pandabear if you could find that link that would be awesome. My girlfriend has training in grappling, karate and ju-jitsu. I was looking for something to give her an edge. What would you guys recommend for pepper spray or mace? Or tasers? Also does anyone know the legality of knives in NC? I can't find a straight answer anywhere.

 

[glistam]

"Mace" isn't a substance per se, just a brand name. The formulations know as "mace" in the past contained CN Tear Gas (Phenacyl chloride) as the active ingredient. Many modern devices labeled "mace" are in fact pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum or "OC"). Good brands include Fox Labs, DefTec and Sabre Red as they have the better concentrations of the active chemical that cheap brands.

In NC, it is generally prohibited to carry bowie knives (sometimes applied to all fixed blades with one edge) and double edged knives. But it is legal to carry a pocket knife. "Pocket knife" is

a small knife, designed for carrying in a pocket or purse,
which has its cutting edge and point entirely enclosed by
its handle, and that may not be opened by a throwing,
explosive, or spring action

In court, knives with blades up to 4.5 inches have been ruled to be a pocket knife.

 

[OLD208X3A]

I've got the ASP...

I bought a 24" ASP after my friend, who is a cop, showed me his issued baton. He showed me the technique of using it on the outside of the kneecap. It's a large target area, less-than-lethal weapon and, according to his personal experience, will take the fight out of anyone. I got it for defense when walking my dogs. I carry a gun as well, just would rather not use it first on a neighbor's dog.

 

[Darkninja]

"Mace" isn't a substance per se, just a brand name. The formulations know as "mace" in the past contained CN Tear Gas (Phenacyl chloride) as the active ingredient. Many modern devices labeled "mace" are in fact pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum or "OC"). Good brands include Fox Labs, DefTec and Sabre Red as they have the better concentrations of the active chemical that cheap brands.

In NC, it is generally prohibited to carry bowie knives (sometimes applied to all fixed blades with one edge) and double edged knives. But it is legal to carry a pocket knife. "Pocket knife" is


In court, knives with blades up to 4.5 inches have been ruled to be a pocket knife.

Thanks for the info. Honestly I'll probably pick up a baton for myself until I carry a gun. So my Benchmade Instigator wouldn't be legal since it's a fixed blade. Damn. I'll just carry my SOG Twitch II or Skeletool.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I use a 26" ASP, though most of the guys I know who carry Monadnocks swear by them.

Absolutely do not carry a baton without some kind of training. You said this is for your mother and girlfriend, do they know how to properly use an impact weapon? I know my own mother and wife would likely flail them wildly and get them pulled out if their hands.

+1, probably more like +1 Million. Just having a collapsible baton without the training (and mindset) to use it just isn't going to get the job done. I'd say pepper spray would be a better choice in this instance, as some people have already suggested.

 

[Dimis]

Monadnock or Asp

and heres the striking data from monadnock to see what they recommend

 

[Limeyfellow]

You have to be careful with carrying them. In NC they are prohibited weapons and will send your sorry arse to jail if you get caught with one, or worse, they might just have a deputy shoot you and ask questions later, which has happened in the likes of Davidson county.

I think I remember most other states have them as prohibited weapons too.

 

[CWL]

I'd stay away from giving collapsible or any other type of batons if neither you nor they are familiar with their usage. Also, people unfamiliar with a collapsible may wait too long before deploying -due to hesitation or even embarrassment to be seen with it.

A can of pepper spray can be discreetly held in the hand to always be ready and much easier for someone to use. One needs little practice to point and spray v. deploying and striking with a baton.

I'd choose distance over contact range.

 

[Carl Levitian]

"What is the best brand? Do you carry one? Easy to use?
Both my mother and girlfriend have been asking me about self-defense when running or walking as they often do. The areas they stick to are safe, however it never hurts to have a little insurance. I recommended a collapsible baton to them, however I'm a gun guy and am not too sure what the best brands or styles are.

Thanks in advance guys"



I have a dim view of any kind of baton or stick to be used by a person of any gender without proper prior training. Even with the training, I don't think the typical female is up to swinging it out in combat with a guy trying to grab her. There are better ways to do this.

Are you in a CCw state, and if so, are your mother and girlfriend the type to take the classes and get trained and certified to carry a gun? A firearm goes a long way to equal things out.

If not, a small cutting tool that can be used instictivly is the way to go right after a can of pepper spray. A really good blast of OC right in the peepers will give them a chance to evade some creep trying to grab them. There are some people who make a speach on how they can fight through pepper spray, but the the object of it is to give the crime victim a chance to evade, not fight. It's a fact that pepper spray will impare vission and hinder breathing, thus giving your mom time to duck, dodge and run. A would be attacker is not going to be running and chasing with a face full of good O.C.

Next down from a firearm and pepper spray, is a cutting tool that is compact, can be placed into action with one hand, is cheap enough to replaced at the next hardware store, and does not require sharpening because it's such a great slicer right out of the package. The sliding blade Stanley utility knife.
As was pointed out by glistam, it was my wife who was indeed attacked by a would be rapist, and she opened up his arm. Back in the mid 70's, Karen had a part time job at night at the local community center, leading exersise and dance classes. The jazzersise craze was in it's beginings thanks to Jane Fonda, and when I came home from work, I'd watch our kids while Karen went to work at the community center. One night a person who had been stalking karen, waited out in the dark parking lot, and jumped out from between two parked cars, grabbing her from behind. With one hand over her mouth, the other arm around her, he was dragging her toward the woods on the edge of the lot. At 5' 3" and 115 pounds, I can only guess he figued Karen was going be easy. Karen, who had already had one hand in her purse groping for her keys, grabbed the Stanley and slid it out and cut up from wrist to elbow. He wasn't hard to find, he was the guy at the local ER claiming he was mugged. The Stanley had done quite a number.

More recently, Karen has been doing work with a group helping down and out women. One younger female named Kate, has become very good friends with Karen, and they were comparing notes on street survival, and Kate showed Karen how to carry one or two box cutters on her person. Since they are so flat, they conceal almost anywhere, and are very effective against grabbing hands and wrists. Kate quoted something she called the cornered cat approach for self defense; when attacked, use your claws in a quick fury to make a break to escape.

It all depends on the person. How far and vicious are your mom and girlfriend willing to go in a fight? The absolute worst thing is for then to not have the mindset to use the weapon when they pull it. But among certain nationalities, and races, women and knives go together, and it is expected for a woman to use a knife for defense. My Karen is half Mexican, and is from Harlingen Texas on the Mexican border. She grew up with a certain mindset, and an uncle on the other side of the border who taught the girls how to be safe when out and about. All of the girls in her family got instruction on how to use a utility knife when they got to be teenages. None were ever assaulted. But that was a long time ago, far away.

Most of all, first off, you need to have a real sit down long talk with your mom and girlfriend, to see where they are comming from. And they need to look inside to see where they are comming from. And where they want to go.

It's not a nice world out there. Have them google Gary Hilton as an example.

Good luck.

 

[JShirley]

I think I remember most other states have them as prohibited weapons too.

You have to be careful about such generalizations. As I mentioned, it was considered a defensive weapon when I took the cert class in GA a few years ago: in other words, the attorney general said one could be carried even without CC permit.

Carl, I'm usually reluctant to suggest folk carry blades for defense. I am very glad it worked for Karen, I just don't think it's a good choice for most U.S. women.

John

 

[PandaBearBG]

Dark Ninja - Fox Labs Foam Pepper Spray, I know they make one. Although its more of a stream than a spray, like shooting a slug instead of birdshot, so her aim has probably got to be decent. But MAN like having sticky shaving cream glued to your face that burns like hell, gauranteed to be blinded! and no attacker is gonna wipe that off anytime soon! A couple other companies make foam OC too, and I think there is a Gel Pepper spray, Fox is the one I'm thinking of though.


And for the wrist band pepper spray found a link on Amazon.com, and it's pink. It's so small and convenient that she HAS to grab it! Most people either forget or don't want the hassle of taking it with them.

http://www.amazon.com/Jogger-Style-Pepper-Spray-Pink-Strap/dp/B001A3BVG8/ref=pd_sim_sg_5

A taser is a good option too, I'd recommend the Blast 950 stun gun for your lady, it's always in her hands, light, easy to carry and jog with all she has to do is pull the trigger and whammo! Since she's trained she would prob knock the wind out of the assailant and tase him til he crapped him self in one move! hahahaah



In all seriousness, I still say go with the mace or a taser, or that tiger light. Even if she is trained, if she got jumped from behind or suprised a physically stronger/larger male has a high probability of taking her down. Not saying your lady can't defend herself, I wish mine could! but I always believe no matter how hard you train or prepare, something can always go wrong and everything is just unpredictable. Oh yeah get a emergency whistle too and just ring that on the mace, the piercing sound that can bring help can really scare away a mugger and lets everyone know where you are at!

 

[Carl Levitian]

"Carl, I'm usually reluctant to suggest folk carry blades for defense. I am very glad it worked for Karen, I just don't think it's a good choice for most U.S. women.

John "



In most cases I do agree with you, but it points out how here in the U.S. we have failed our female family members. All to often you see in the news of some young woman abducted off a parking lot or someplace, only to be found dead a few days later.

In some countries it is the duty of a male family member to make sure they are equipted and taught how to defend themselves. Perhaps instead of home economics, young girls reaching the age of 12 or 13 should be given a box cutter and taught how to be vicious to somebody trying to snatch them? start now when they are young, and you'd have a lot less cases of missing girls, if the would be attaker/abductor thinks he's going to be in need of medical help and a lot of stitches if he tangles with the wrong cornered young woman.

My own sister was taught by our father down the basement, using a little Christy knife on a old pair of hanging pants with the legs tied off and stuffed with rags. Years later, when coming out of her office building after dark, she had to fight off an attack, and she said that dad's lessons made all the difference in the world to her.

We are not doing our daughters and sisters any favors teaching them to be nice little girls. The world is not a disneyland, and they need to learn that at an early age. Being that they are in general, smaller and weaker, they need to be mentally conditioned to fight back with an effective small weapon they can carry easy, and inflicts serious damage that needs an ER. It makes it easy to catch the lowlife when he goes to the hospital to keep from bleeding to death. There is just no way without a firearm or razor sharp cutter a 5' 2 or 3" female is going to be able to fight with a 6 foot 200 pound attacker. But give your wife a magic marker and tell her to target your hands and wrists, then try to take the marker away from her or just take her down to the floor, and see what happens. Women can be very agile and quick.

It rapidly gets to a point that it's not worth the risk to a would be rapist to try to argue with a bx cutter or two.

Otherwise we are going to continue having more Meredith Emerson's, and Cheryl Hodges Dunlap's.

But we have to start changing the mental mindset of our women.