Colorado question on workplace policy

[1tonyj]

(q) Possession or use of illegal drugs, medical marijuana, or licensed
or unlicensed deadly weapons while on the job, or on "Company Name"
property, in a "Company Name" vehicle or in a vehicle while on "Company Name" business.

This is part of the personal policy I have at work. I have changed my companies official name to "Company Name" where appropriate. The business is part of the City and County and has posted a "No Weapons" sign at the front gate, which is guarded by an armed guard. No metal detectors or place to check your weapon on entry. (just swipe my security card from my car, smile and wave at the guard as the gates open and let me in)

I've looked through the State statutes and I just don't see anything that makes reference to your personal car being your own personal property.

The way I read my companies personnel policy, which is vague to me at best, is that as long as I am not using my private vehicle on official company business, I am fine. I'm thinking that as long as I drive my car to work, where it sits in an unofficial capacity, and a weapon never leaves my vehicle, I'm fine. I do have a CCP, but I doubt that has any bearing on any of this.

I was just curious how you guys would interpret this, or if you could shed any known light on "private property" laws in CO. (As in, "is my car my private property and immune from search?")

A long time ago, I was told something about public facilities having to give you the option of checking your weapon or use of a metal detector. As we all know, it's all hearsay until you can track down the legal jargon in print.

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[scottgun]

Is your parking lot on company property?

It sounds like it is, but that is a deciding factor. Their property, their rules. If its a public parking lot, then their policies don't hold much weight.

Is this company likely to perform searches on cars? I've worked for companies that have similar vague policies, and kept my ccw in a locked center console in my jeep. Their policy isn't law and I'm not willing to go unarmed when any other time its just part of my gear. In the jeep, I have an entire toolbox that could be considered deadly weapons or burglary tools, but they are just tools, so I'm not going to give into the hysteria, I'll be responsible and prepared.

CO is also an at-will work state, meaning a company can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason. If there's any hint of violating company policy or its not a gun friendly environment, then I would consider it a risk. If its like most companies I have experienced in Colorado, if you don't make it an issue, you're fine. But yes, it would technically be a violation of your company policy, so they could fire you, but it wouldn't be illegal.

Some states have passed laws that give employees 2nd amendment protection in their vehicles on company property, but CO doesn't have such a law. It's not illegal but its the grey area of company policy, so it would come down to the type of environment you are in, how comfortable you are with it, and the risk of losing the job vs. going unarmed.

 

[DAP90]

This is kind of a gray area because you’re blending two different areas of control; work rules and the law.

Does your company have a policy about searching vehicles? I’m not aware of any laws that can force you to allow an employer to search them but that might not be any comfort if you get fired for refusing.

That said, with a CCW in Colorado you can carry anywhere not specifically prohibited, which includes:

18-12-214.
(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which: (a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building; (b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and (c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.

And my favorite poorly defined statement:

(5) nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.

I have no idea what the existing rights of private property owners are or if they’re even defined anywhere.

Notice how to be in force there needs to be guards, electronic security, electronic screening of everyone who enters and a place to check weapons. You indicated that they didn’t meet all those requirements.

All the above is found here:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf

The above link indicates that no guns signs have the force of law. I’m not sure I agree given how poorly this private property rights are defined but I have nothing to prove I am correct, so take that for what it’s worth.

Just to confuse the issue:

Criminal Trespass
If I carry in a private business that bans, am I guilty of criminal trespass? Sometimes.
18-4-504 Third Degree Criminal Trespass
(1) A person commits the crime of third degree criminal trespass if such person unlawfully enters or remains in or upon premises of another.

Notice how it specifically says “unlawfully enters”. I’m guessing that if you work there it’s not unlawful entry but it would be unlawful if they asked you to leave for having a gun and you didn’t.

There’s also
18-12-105.6. Limitation on local ordinances regarding firearms in private vehicles.
(2) (b) …no municipality, county, or city and county shall have the authority to enact or enforce any ordinance that would restrict a person's ability to travel with a weapon in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance while traveling into, through, or within, a municipal, county, or city and county jurisdiction, regardless of the number of times the person stops in a jurisdiction.

All of the above found here:
http://www.rmgo.org/gun-law-faqs

This applies to local governments but does indicate it’s not illegal to have a gun in your car. There are other sections that support this.

Even though I’m repeating myself this does not mean a private company can have and enforce an entirely different set of rules. Not necessarily illegal to violate them but you can be fired regardless. Given that they specifically say no deadly weapons on company property you would technically be in violation of that work rule.

Is parking on the street an option?

 

[1tonyj]

Is your parking lot on company property?

Yes, it's on company property.

It sounds like it is, but that is a deciding factor. Their property, their rules. If its a public parking lot, then their policies don't hold much weight.

Is this company likely to perform searches on cars? I've worked for companies that have similar vague policies, and kept my ccw in a locked center console in my jeep. Their policy isn't law and I'm not willing to go unarmed when any other time its just part of my gear. In the jeep, I have an entire toolbox that could be considered deadly weapons or burglary tools, but they are just tools, so I'm not going to give into the hysteria, I'll be responsible and prepared.

CO is also an at-will work state, meaning a company can fire you at any time for any reason or no reason. If there's any hint of violating company policy or its not a gun friendly environment, then I would consider it a risk. If its like most companies I have experienced in Colorado, if you don't make it an issue, you're fine. But yes, it would technically be a violation of your company policy, so they could fire you, but it wouldn't be illegal.

This is what I'm really curious about, if they have the right to fire me if I refuse to consent to a vehicle search. I'll have to check the policy and see if there is anything written in there about vehicle searches.

Some states have passed laws that give employees 2nd amendment protection in their vehicles on company property, but CO doesn't have such a law. It's not illegal but its the grey area of company policy, so it would come down to the type of environment you are in, how comfortable you are with it, and the risk of losing the job vs. going unarmed.

Yea, the recent laws that have been passed is what got us talking about it; like Oklahomas for example. Right now, it seems to be a don't ask, don't tell policy. Although, as of last week, my boss told me they said the same thing about alcohol being stored in the car. So technically, if I go to the Costco before work, I can't store a 6 pack of beer or a bottle of wine for use at home.

 

[1tonyj]

This is kind of a gray area because you’re blending two different areas of control; work rules and the law.

Does your company have a policy about searching vehicles? I’m not aware of any laws that can force you to allow an employer to search them but that might not be any comfort if you get fired for refusing.

Yea, ran out of time earlier before leaving work. I really need to look up the vehicle search portion. We're all gun enthusiasts, including my boss, but you never know who might get ticked sometime and blow the whistle, even though everyone says they don't carry in the car.

That said, with a CCW in Colorado you can carry anywhere not specifically prohibited, which includes:

18-12-214.
(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which: (a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building; (b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and (c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.

And my favorite poorly defined statement:

(5) nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.

I have no idea what the existing rights of private property owners are or if they’re even defined anywhere.

Notice how to be in force there needs to be guards, electronic security, electronic screening of everyone who enters and a place to check weapons. You indicated that they didn’t meet all those requirements.

All the above is found here:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/colorado.pdf

The above link indicates that no guns signs have the force of law. I’m not sure I agree given how poorly this private property rights are defined but I have nothing to prove I am correct, so take that for what it’s worth.

Thanks for that. I looked for that for almost an hour and never hit on the right search terms to find it. All I know is that after reading everything I could find on gun laws, everything was clear as mud.

Just to confuse the issue:

Criminal Trespass
If I carry in a private business that bans, am I guilty of criminal trespass? Sometimes.
18-4-504 Third Degree Criminal Trespass
(1) A person commits the crime of third degree criminal trespass if such person unlawfully enters or remains in or upon premises of another.

Notice how it specifically says “unlawfully enters”. I’m guessing that if you work there it’s not unlawful entry but it would be unlawful if they asked you to leave for having a gun and you didn’t.

That was what I was thinking, which went back to vehicle search question I need to figure out. If the search is never done, and I was storing it in the trunk, how would they ever know?

There’s also
18-12-105.6. Limitation on local ordinances regarding firearms in private vehicles.
(2) (b) …no municipality, county, or city and county shall have the authority to enact or enforce any ordinance that would restrict a person's ability to travel with a weapon in a private automobile or other private means of conveyance while traveling into, through, or within, a municipal, county, or city and county jurisdiction, regardless of the number of times the person stops in a jurisdiction.

All of the above found here:
http://www.rmgo.org/gun-law-faqs

This applies to local governments but does indicate it’s not illegal to have a gun in your car. There are other sections that support this.

Even though I’m repeating myself this does not mean a private company can have and enforce an entirely different set of rules. Not necessarily illegal to violate them but you can be fired regardless. Given that they specifically say no deadly weapons on company property you would technically be in violation of that work rule.

The way I read the first part of the policy, they have enough stuff in there to fire you for something, weapon or not. I'm cool with that, but be it groceries in my car, a knife or a handgun, which never leave the car, it just doesn't seem right. I guess stuff like this seldom does. Again, definitely need to read more and see about vehicle search consent.

Is parking on the street an option?

No, but there technically are a few spots where I could park on property outside the security fence, in front of the "no weapons" signs. But then again, depending on how you interpret the policy, I am still on business property.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[scottgun]

Yep, and this illustrates where c-y-a policies (and some laws) become absurd. You get packed to go camping for the weekend to leave right from work. Stop by the grocery store to stock up the cooler during your lunch break to save time. All ready to take off from work for a weekend in the mountains with some plinking during the day and drinks around the fire at night after the guns are packed away. But while at work you are in possession of a deadly weapon and alcohol on company property. Really bad stuff if you make objects forbidden, treated almost as bad as committing an actual act of violence.

Rant aside, if your company has a security fence with signs posted, then it sounds like they take it seriously. Also, I'd bet there's another clause in the policy that states that refusal of a search is grounds for dismissal. I don't think there any legal protections against an employer search, or even if they ran the K-9 up and down the lot and used a hit on your vehicle against you.

What can we do? Personally I support the NRA and Rocky Mountain Gun Owners, hopefully we can get a state law similar to Oklahoma allowing firearms in vehicles on company property.

 

[DAP90]

All I know is that after reading everything I could find on gun laws, everything was clear as mud.

Agreed

It’s clear to me that the law intends that people be allowed to keep a handgun in their car for the purpose of self defense. What’s not clear to me is how that interacts with a property owners rights.

 

[Frank Ettin]

All I know is that after reading everything I could find on gun laws, everything was clear as mud.

...It’s clear to me that the law intends that people be allowed to keep a handgun in their car for the purpose of self defense. What’s not clear to me is how that interacts with a property owners rights.

Let's try this:

[1] Unless limited or prohibited by a state statute or court decision, or by a contract (e. g., a union contract or individual employment contract), a private employer may, as a condition of employment, require that an employee consent to a search of his work station, his person on company property, bags or cases brought on to company property, his car parked on company property, or a company car assigned to him. If an employee refuses to permit such search, the employer may terminate his employment for cause.

[2] Unless limited or prohibited by a state statute or court decision, or by a contract (e. g., a union contract or individual employment contract), a private employer may prohibit an employee from possessing a gun (whether or not the employee's possession of the gun is entirely legal) on company property, in the employee's car parked on company property, or in a company car assigned to the employee. If the employee is found with a gun in violation of the employer's rule, the employer may terminate his employment for cause.

[3] Depending on state law, a termination of one's employment for cause might mean that the terminated employee would be ineligible for unemployment compensation. Depending on the employer's written policies, a termination for cause could result in the terminated employee's loss of otherwise available severance benefits.

 

[DAP90]

OK, I get your point and I realize that an employer can and will fire workers for violating a workplace policy. It’s arguable though that the ability of the workplace policy to be enforced is limited by statute.

The Colorado statute has a specific list of places where carry is not allowed. Businesses are not on it except if they meet the security requirements. The Colorado Supreme Court decided in the case below that there are intentional narrow exclusions and that the University of Colorado couldn’t ban carry on campus because of them.

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Supreme_Court/opinions/2010/10SC344.pdf

I realize a university is not the same as a private business but shouldn’t the same rules be applied?

Unless of course the statement regarding the rights of property owners (which I’ve yet to find listed) override everything else. I admit this may be the case. I sure would like to see them spelled out though.

I’m not trying to be argumentative here – honestly.

I assume your list of three conditions are general rules and not codified in Colorado law somewhere.

 

[1tonyj]

Here is a little more info on the "search" aspect, per my companies policy...

2-8. EMPLOYEE PRIVACY
2-8-(1) No Expectation of Privacy. Employees have no expectation of privacy in
"Company Name" property unless otherwise provided by law. Such property includes,
but is not limited to, the contents of "Company Name" offices, desks, furniture, lockers,
vehicles, and data recorded on "Company Name" computers, telephones, and other
electronic equipment.

I found nothing else relating to mandatory searches, if asked. To me, again, I read this as company vehicles only. My car never classifies as a company vehicle, to me, since I only drive it to and from work, never in the process of doing work.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Frank Ettin]

....It’s arguable though that the ability of the workplace policy to be enforced is limited by statute.

The Colorado statute has a specific list of places where carry is not allowed. Businesses are not on it except if they meet the security requirements....

You're misreading the statute.

As noted, 18-12-214 provides in pertinent part (emphasis added):

18-12-214.
.....

(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:

(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;

(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and

(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.​

(5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity....

First, especially in this context, "public building" would be understood by a court to refer to a building or part of a building owned, leased or occupied by a public entity, such as a state or local governmental agency. Such a meaning would be consistent with the understanding accorded the term by Colorado courts in a number of "public building" injury cases, such as Reynolds v. State Bd. for Community Colleges and Occupational Educ., 853 P.2d 539 (Colo. App., 1992).

Second, such narrow understanding would be consistent with subparagraph (5) of 18-12-214 which expressly disclaims any intent to impair private property rights.

Third, the overall impact of provisions of 18-12-214 is to define certain places from which guns are barred by operation of law and certain places occupied or used by public entities from which guns are not banned. However, the rights of private property holders, private businesses or private employers to allow or not allow guns are not affected.

...The Colorado statute has a specific list of places where carry is not allowed. Businesses are not on it except if they meet the security requirements...

Those places are places occupied or used by public entities. Private business are excepted.

...The Colorado Supreme Court decided in the case below that there are intentional narrow exclusions and that the University of Colorado couldn’t ban carry on campus because of them.

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Supreme_Court/opinions/2010/10SC344.pdf

I realize a university is not the same as a private business but shouldn’t the same rules be applied?...

No, there's no reason that the same rules should apply. The University of Colorado is a state university and thus a governmental entity. The Court's ruling was based, in part, on various statutes and provisions of the Colorado Constitution that regulate state governmental entities in general, and the University of Colorado specifically. But those laws don't apply to private entities.

...Unless of course the statement regarding the rights of property owners (which I’ve yet to find listed) override everything else. I admit this may be the case. I sure would like to see them spelled out though....

Certain private rights flow from Common Law and are inherent in the rights of private property.

Such inherent rights include the right of a private actor to exclude anyone from his property or impose conditions on his grant of permission to enter. Such inherent rights include the right of a private business to conduct its business as it pleases. Such inherent rights include the right of a private employer to set whatever conditions of employment it pleases.

Of course all of these inherent rights have been limited by law in various ways. So under various statutes, a business open to the public may not prohibit entry by someone because of that person's race, nor may an employer pay less than a specified by law minimum wage, nor may a private employer refuse categorically to hire Asians. But all these limitations on inherent rights come from specific laws or court decisions.

...I assume your list of three conditions are general rules and not codified in Colorado law somewhere.

I described general legal principles.

...I found nothing else relating to mandatory searches, if asked. ...

Thoughts on this?

Maybe you missed something. Maybe your employer has not interest in being able to search employees' cars parked on company property. Maybe whoever wrote up the policy messed up. It's hard to say.

 

[DAP90]

Third, the overall impact of provisions of 18-12-214 is to define certain places from which guns are barred by operation of law and certain places occupied or used by public entities from which guns are not banned. However, the rights of private property holders, private businesses or private employers to allow or not allow guns are not affected.

Gotcha, thanks for the explanation.

Too bad though because my employer just changed his policy to no guns after 13 years of no policy in response to an employee going off the deep end.

I sure hope that new policy keeps me safe.

 

[1tonyj]

Thanks for the replies so far, it's becoming a bit more clear. Going to re-read everything again and let it soak in.

 

[1tonyj]

Maybe you missed something. Maybe your employer has not interest in being able to search employees' cars parked on company property. Maybe whoever wrote up the policy messed up. It's hard to say.

Would it be safe to say, that since I work at a municipal governmental agency, that even if they had something in the personel policy, they would not be able to enforce it unless they had the following in place:

18-12-214.
.....

(4) A permit issued pursuant to this part 2 does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun into a public building at which:

(a) Security personnel and electronic weapons screening devices are permanently in place at each entrance to the building;

(b) Security personnel electronically screen each person who enters the building to determine whether the person is carrying a weapon of any kind; and

(c) Security personnel require each person who is carrying a weapon of any kind to leave the weapon in possession of security personnel while the person is in the building.​

(5) Nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity....

 

[thefish]

Why don't you email HR with your specific questions, and get an answer from the horses mouth?

What I understand from the policy is:

(q) Possession or use of illegal drugs, medical marijuana, or licensed
or unlicensed deadly weapons while on the job, or on "Company Name"
property, in a "Company Name" vehicle or in a vehicle while on "Company Name" business.

I read that as if you or your car is on company property, ie. parking lot, and you have a weapon, you can be dismissed.

If you are dead set on carrying in your car, I would lay out the specifics in an email and see what HR says, and abide by that, if this is a job you want to keep. It sounds like they are pretty serious about if from the written policy, signage, etc.

Let's just say you THINK you find some law loophole that you THINK says they can't search you car while on company property, they do search your car, find a weapon, and dismiss you. You still have lost your job, in a at-will employment state, and I guess you could file a wrongful termination suit, but all that will do is cost you a bunch of money, and most likly get you nowhere in the end.

I'd consult an attorney after you get an answer from HR, if it is still unclear.

 

[1tonyj]

Why don't you email HR with your specific questions, and get an answer from the horses mouth?

Right now, it's off the radar and everyone prefers it stays that way. No need to draw attention to it. As far as I know, there is nothing on the books that prohibits it; if I ask, I almost guarantee there will be, if there wasn't. (that's why I'm getting opinions here instead of HR)

What I understand from the policy is:

(q) Possession or use of illegal drugs, medical marijuana, or licensed
or unlicensed deadly weapons while on the job, or on "Company Name"
property, in a "Company Name" vehicle or in a vehicle while on "Company Name" business.

I read that as if you or your car is on company property, ie. parking lot, and you have a weapon, you can be dismissed.

Thanks, this is really what I'm wanting from everyone... how they would read it.

The way I read it, it would be worded this way if they wanted personal cars included:

(q) Possession or use of illegal drugs, medical marijuana, or licensed
or unlicensed deadly weapons while on the job, on "Company Name"
property, or in a vehicle while on "Company Name" business.

If you are dead set on carrying in your car, I would lay out the specifics in an email and see what HR says, and abide by that, if this is a job you want to keep. It sounds like they are pretty serious about if from the written policy, signage, etc.

Let's just say you THINK you find some law loophole that you THINK says they can't search you car while on company property, they do search your car, find a weapon, and dismiss you. You still have lost your job, in a at-will employment state, and I guess you could file a wrongful termination suit, but all that will do is cost you a bunch of money, and most likly get you nowhere in the end.

I'd consult an attorney after you get an answer from HR, if it is still unclear.

If I went straight to HR, then I am dependent on their interpretation. By asking for feedback here, I am gathering opinions and not going into this unprepared. If HR doesn't know about 18-12-214, and it applies, then gives me whatever they think is meant, then I'm nowhere. If 18-12-214 applies, then maybe I can ask that we be able to check our weapons each morning with the guard.