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Concealed carry gun-wielder intervenes in domestic dispute and is shot dead

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aim1, May 3, 2016.

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  1. Aim1

    Aim1 Member

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    Tragic. You've got to be careful about what situations you place yourselves in. Easy to second guess what he did but he thought he was doing the right thing.




    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ervenes-in-domestic-dispute-and-is-shot-dead/




     
  2. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    he should have called the police,gotten a plate number and administered first aid to the woman....no weapon needed

    CCW holders are not cops, we need to stop acting like it.

    let your macho pride take the hit.....if the bad guy wants to flee, let him flee......hell, the further away he gets from me, the better.
     
  3. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    Some simple rules for going about the world armed:

    1) The best way to win a fight is to never get in one in the first place.
    2) If a killer is bearing down on you and yours, it's time to fight. If the killer is looking the other way, it's time to run
    3) If fighting is your only choice, fight. Don't talk, don't bargain, don't hesitate. Just fight.

    This guy, even though he probably only had good in his heart, messed up by the numbers. The threat was leaving, so he should have let it go. Then he gave up the initiative by trying to detain the guy instead of ending the situation... And he got shot for his hesitation.
     
  4. Poper

    Poper Member

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    Agreed.

    Agreed again.

    Prayers sent to his family and friends for his unnecessary loss. So sad.
     
  5. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    "... He then climbed into his truck in the parking lot and attempted to leave when Antell tried to stop him. Antell, a father of three and CrossFit gym owner, retreated to his vehicle, grabbed his own gun, and approached the shooter. ..."

    They went over this in handgun carry permit class. If the bad guy intends to leave, let him. Bad guys should have the duty to retreat anyway.

    Try to remember details: description of bad guy, escape vehicle. Render first aid to victims (if your state has good samaritan laws).
     
  6. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Folks, he got his gun from his car. I don't think he had a CHL.

    As for the incident... you take your life in your hands when you intervene. At least he tried.

    Deaf
     
  7. MAKster

    MAKster Member

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    I think the sad lesson learned is to leave the policing to the actual police and your concealed carry gun should just be used to defend yourself and family.
     
  8. Teachu2

    Teachu2 Member

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    He didn't try to intervene - he tried to apprehend.
     
  9. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    are you really going to stand by and watch someone bleed out just because there is an off-chance they might sue you for helping them?
     
  10. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

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    A deceased instructor I used to teach with always told his classes " when you expose your handgun in public you become a bullet magnet".
     
  11. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    Discussions on "moral right/wrong" tend to get threads locked here real quick.
     
  12. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    We are not cops, but we are responsible members of the community and there is nothing wrong with being involved with the care of the community. Sometimes, citizens have to step up.

    He didn't break the law in trying to intervene. He wasn't the bad guy. There are risks for doing what he did, no doubt.

    While contextually different, there are equally real risks for stepping up and rending aid to a person bleeding out as well.
     
  13. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Debating the side issues won't bring him back.

    The significant point is that he tried to apprehend. Intervention would have been to call the cops and remain as a witness - apprehension started when he went back to the truck to get his gun, then attempted a High Noon showdown.

    Boom. Headshot.

    No amount of service, training, or moral rectitude will fix walking into a gun fight you could have avoided. What is patently clear is the deceased over rated his ability and under rated the risk.

    He is now another star on the walk of Good Samaritans killed doing more than they were capable of. Good intentions regardless. Right next to the Utah Walmart CCW who was shot in the back by a tailgating partner in terrorism.

    You don't ever have an omniscient view nor can you reliably predict the future.
     
  14. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    The guy tried to apprehend the shooter; wrong answer!!!!. He placed the life of his own wife, who was present at the scene, in grave danger.
     
  15. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    LE will be the first to say . . . the most dangerous 911 calls are domestic disturbance calls. As a civi - never ever get involved in a domestic situation unless your life or that of a loved one is in danger. Did I say NEVER?
     
  16. TimSr

    TimSr Member

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    Huge difference there!
     
  17. WVsig

    WVsig Member

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    I see this differently. There was no need to step up here. The shooter was not engaging other people when he retrieved his handgun from his truck. The shooter was in his own truck attempting to leave. The woman he had shot, his wife, had already retreated into the store where she worked.

    He did not engage and active shooter he attempted to stop the shooter from leaving the scene. He drew a gun on someone who had already shot someone but did not pull the trigger and instead attempted to direct him to stop. That mistake cost him his life.

    There was no need to "Step up here" because the danger to himself, his wife and the woman who was already shot was not imminent. Unfortunately his action escalated the violence at that point in time. As others have stated the prudent course of action would have been to be a good witness. Call the police and take video or pictures of the truck the driver and the lic plate which will help the police catch, identify and convict the shooter.

    As for helping some one who is bleeding out vs this they are not in the same realm. IMHO If you help someone who is bleeding out you might face legal issues down the road but you are not putting yourself in immediate danger of being shot.

    PS I personally do not like the Washington Post headline. The term gun-wielder makes it sound like he was the aggressor when in reality he was just someone who made a bad decision to apprehend a criminal.
     
  18. txblackout

    txblackout Member

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    the article says this

    Is this actually true or just a blatant lie?
     
  19. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    We aren't cops, and trying to be one isn't one of our responsibilities as concealed carriers. The best thing he could have done was got the license plate number, have a clear description of the occurrence, call the cops, and help the wounded.

    Don't try to be a cop if you aren't one. He meant well, and it went wrong. This is really unfortunate.
     
  20. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    Sad deal for sure. Sounds like the guy was trying to help, but took it too far.
    If the man was actively shooting at the woman, I would commend him for getting his gun and trying to help.
    But the criminal was trying to leave the scene. His efforts would have been much better served to snap a photo of the vehicle/license plate while his wife called 911.

    But I wasn't there, so I don't know how it all unfolded. It's a sad situation and whether or not he made good decisions, a good guy got killed trying to help.
     
  21. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    In this case, the attacker had broken off the attack and was attempting to flee.

    If the attack was continuing and there was an imminent threat of death or serious injury to the woman, an intervention would have been justified under the SD law I am familiar with: self defense covers defense of an innocent third party (other jurisdictions may vary).

    But one point was made very very clear to me: if the attacker flees, do not pursue, do not attempt to apprehend or detain. If an attacker flees, count your defense successful. If the fleeing attacker fears you want to kill him rather than detain him for arrest by responding officers, he can use force in self-defense.

    While the description of the attack -- man shooting unarmed woman -- makes it clear who was attacker and who was victim, determining who in a third party incident actually is the attacker and who is victim can be confusing: you may be witnessing a victim fighting back and gaining the upper hand. Very often third party fights are mutual combat and the intervener may have both turn on him for butting in.
     
  22. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    now an interesting question.......at what point does the attacker( man who shot the woman), have a right to self defense?
     
  23. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    Geeze Louise!

    The guy already showed he had the willingness to shoot his own wife and even though our cross-fit Marine had the drop on him he got killed anyhow?

    How did he think this was gonna play out?

    Never.... ever get in the middle of a domestic dispute without a life in imminent danger. Passions and judgements there, are like nowhere else in society.

    Shoulda looked to the woman and got the Cops on the case.




    Todd.
     
  24. Realist

    Realist Member

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    TX has a 'Good Samaritan' law in place.
     
  25. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    I'm guessing the samaritan aspect would be aiding the woman in a non-escalation manner but it's easy for me to sit here and second guess the guy.

    Just seems hinky that he went to get his firearm after the man had shot her and was in the process of leaving. Well outside the expectations of a Samaritan Law, I should think.

    Now, rendering her aid, not knowing her condition? That's another issue. But, given the results - he's certainly not gonna be "Seinfelded" now.


    Todd.
     
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