Concealed Carry on Campus- Skeleton Policy

[mdao]

So I repeat, what is it about the campus air that causes previously responsible people to indulge in irresponsible and dangerous behavior when they come on campus?

Campuses are liberal strongholds and they dictate the rules there. No logic, just "I don't like guns, so there will be no guns in my fiefdom."

Also who pays for all of this? Secure lockers, background checks, and extra training for campus security all cost money and who is to absorb this expense? The carriers by adding an extra fee to them or the entire campus even though you have some who will have no part in this adventure? Don't expect the states to fund the project.

States already issues CHL licenses, so there's no need for redundancy there. Central storage can be at the 24/7 clinic or any other 24/7 campus area. Storage would only be available to CHL holders that live in dorms. Given CHL statistics and a campus of 20,000 students, I'd be surprised if there were 50 on campus students that have CHLs and live on campus, and 50 lockers is hardly a back breaking expense, especially if you have rental fees.

(20000 students - 5000 off campus seniors/grad) * (1/3 age > 21) * (.65 on campus rate) * (1% CHL rate) = 32 dorm students carrying.

 

[DixieTexian]

Not all college students move off campus after their first year, especially smaller universities. Some stay until after they are 21. Some private schools require students to live on campus until they get married or something like that. I'm 21, and I live on campus until the fall starts. I think for students living on campus with a roomate, they must select their own roomate prior to applying for on campus housing. Both roomates should sign an agreement and pass a background test. They should be required to keep their door locked when not there. I think students who are 18 should be allowed to keep long arms or muzzleloaders in their rooms. I also don't think there should be a limit on how many guns should be kept on campus. Where I go to school, lots of people are hunters. If you hunt birds, deer, and other small game, that is easily three long arms that you will want/need. Also, it is a lot more convenient to be able to keep them on campus and not have to go home to get a gun. A lot of people I know will go duck hunting on public lands before class starts. What if they don't have a place off campus to keep their shotgun without driving a couple of hours to go home and get them?

 

[RubenZ]

Lots of students live off campus -- and so far as I know, there aren't a slew of shootings in those off-campus quarters (and if there were, the mainstream media would be trumpeting it to the sky.) There are no problems with guns in off-campus housing.

When you live off-campus chances are you know who your roommate is. You know them well etc.

In Dorms a lot of times your randomly given your Roommate. That is where I have the problem.

 

[Correia]

The only state that has campus CCW is Utah and the university system fought hard then too.

Yep, and we kicked them in the face until they lost. It was great.

Okay, I know a little bit about this topic. I was involved in the last go around here in Utah a little bit. And I got to sit and listen in on some very smart activists working on this issue.

I'm going to address this, not as a hypothetical, but about doing it in real life, in your state.

First, don't get hung up on minutea. Don't let little things bog you down. You can what if every single thing brought up in this thread until it kills the whole idea.

Step 1. Get organized. Find legislators in your state that are pro-gun, and willing to fight for this. Use Utah as your example. Use VTech as what you're scared of.

Step 2. Start training college students. Lots of them. See my sig line. The more people who actually have skin in the game, the better off you are. If you've got a couple hundred students and faculty that want CCW you can be ignored. If you have 10,000 students and faculty that want CCW, then you're in business.

Step 3. Push. Push everywhere. Start a campaign. Write letters. Get on TV. Especially amongst the student population.

Guys, we did it here. If it can be done here, it can be done somewhere else. We only got it because of a really pro-gun attorney general, and some super dedicated activists.

On the little things, like lockers, crap like that, the important thing to get is the overall CCW is okay on campus. You can hammer details later.

Because I'll tell you right now what is going to happen on those details. The academics lined up against you will pick and pick until you can't carry in faculty offices (defined as anything that has a chair in it) and you have to store the guns in lockers that are centrally located (which the university won't install, and when they do, they are three miles that a way)

If you get to point where you're fighting details, you've already won.

Just like I see Vermont leading to Alaska, and in the future, that leading to other states with permitless carry, we can do the same thing with forbidden areas.

You need to contact your legislators now, and demand to know why Utah loves thier children more than your state loves yours...

If any of you are dead serious about working for this, and not just talking about it, contact me, and I'll be glad to put you in contact with the activists that got this done in Utah, and they can probably steer you in a good direction.

 

[ilbob]

I think some of you are buying into the idea that having a gun could make you into some crazed killer whether you mean to be or not.

IMO, the policy should be no illegal use or possession of firearms, along with the three fundamental rules of handgun safety, and secure storage for the times that is necessary.

As for the unwitting felon issue, my question is why should a law abiding citizen have to disclose his or her choice to use his 2A rights? the felon should have to disclose his past to the school and to potential roommates who should be able to veto being forced to room with a convicted felon.

I do not buy the need for the school to provide for secure storage. if you decide to engage in an activity where a firearm is inappropriate, leave it in secure storage before you go to that activity.

 

[Correia]

On dorms. Utah policy allows you to change roomates for whatever reason. So if you don't like your roomate, you can ask for a new one.

The dorms are a minor issue.

As for taking guns off for PE or whatever, it is just like CCW in the normal world. Don't over complicate it.

And the under 21 thing? Been on a college campus lately? There are a lot of over 21 students. Plus the huge number of people that work on a campus. It is actually a huge deal.

I've been keeping track of schools since I started teaching CCW for free to students and staff. I've taught a couple hundred people for free now, and it is often surprising who they are. Janitors, physical plant folks, history professors, computer lab operators.

There is a massive population over 21 on campus.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I was actually unfamiliar with the Utah policy. I thought it was just sort of ambiguous.

The ability to change roommates for whatever reason, basically solves a large percentage of the dorm policy.

I know I'm nit picking Correia, but you have to understand that Utah is a relatively conservative state. Most other states are not. Also, as one who has worked on both ends of academia, I'm well aware of how these folks operate. They're going to want to form committees. Fine. But if we pro-gunners have to sit on a committee, I want to make sure that we can answer and address ALL the concerns. It's easier to work with people than work against them.

I think in an ideal scenario, we get granted unrestricted CCW alla Utah. Unfortunately, I think there will be restrictions imposed. I'm basically starting this thread as a CYA thread. If there is a forum, which there will be in some cases, I want us all armed to the teeth, ready to fight for campus CCW. Having a framework to answer questions and concerns isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Your solutions seem to be very good.

 

[Majic]

I'd be surprised if there were 50 on campus students that have CHLs and live on campus, and 50 lockers is hardly a back breaking expense, especially if you have rental fees.

But as I asked who would pay for this? Ever tried to get the school to buy something and especially something not pertaining to education? Who will perform the background checks? Who will train the campus security on their extra duties? You may not consider these back breaking expenses, but someone has to foot the initial bill.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I don't understand the problem. What is it about the air on campus that makes otherwise responsible citizens with CHLs suddenly become irresponsible when they cross the campus boundary?

What does a student do with his gun in the gym? Samething everyone else does with his gun, wallet, credit cards, and so on when he goes to the gym.

What does a student do with his gun when he goes to bed? Samething everyone else does with his gun, wallet, credit cards, and so on when he goes to bed.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I don't understand the problem. What is it about the air on campus that makes otherwise responsible citizens with CHLs suddenly become irresponsible when they cross the campus boundary?

Right, gym is one scenario, and lockers are usually available, but I just was looking to cover an instance where a locker was not available.

I'm not saying that students become irresponsible either. I'm just looking to cover the questions in a campus debate.

Let's say you were at the debate, you said, "we should have CCW on campus". An anti derogatorily said, "really genius, and how do you propose we do that? How do you account for [rattles off a list of potential issues]?" or "have you honestly thought about the implications of what you're saying"

This way, you (we) can respond, "actually, yes..."

Correia's description of Utah's policy would provide an excellent real world example, but we must also be ready for the response, "well, this isn't Utah". By framing a skeleton campus policy we can do just that.

A month or two back, there was a linked article posted by parents of some of the slain students and said something to the effect of, "We want a committee to investigate solutions to campus violence. We don't know what the solution is, but more guns on campus isn't it." Well that's a load of crap. We have the solution AND we should know how to implement it.

As I stated before, in a perfect world, CCW just extends to campus. In the real world, the universities are going to throw a fit and have some stupid safety committee or something oversee the CCW thing. If pro-gun people can forward a thorough plan to the committee, more of our ideas will be represented.

As far as campuses being strapped for cash; have any of you looked at itemized tuition bills? I think I was billed over $1000 in miscellaneous fees. The fees went to things like the gym, student union (yay involuntary socialism), and a bunch of other stuff I didn't want to pay for. Divert a couple bucks of that and you can have lockers in certain areas. This summer, I'm working business accounts for the university I attend. Schools piss cash. You'd be shocked at the stipends I approve. In one instance I approved $6500 worth of catering for a workshop... schools have money and the resources to facilitate CCW.

 

[RubenZ]

Do you guys think it would be wise to try and implement this first for Employees first? I'm a Full-Time staff at a University and I wish I were allowed to Carry. I think getting Full-Time employees to be able to Carry is an easier task than students.

 

[turtlehitman]

I live at Utah State University and their policy is similar to "Storage: Storage for one pistol and one rifle should be available to all students in a central on-campus location."-mdao this is very inconveinent I would take any where from 30 to 45 minutes to get them. If you can trust students to carry guns you should trust them to store guns. IMHO

 

[bogie]

We want a committee to investigate solutions to campus violence. We don't know what the solution is, but more guns on campus isn't it."

They're looking at it as a "theory." Wrong direction. The word they should have used was "defense."

 

[jefnvk]

OK, comments from someone who lived in a dorm room for the last three years, and just finally moved off campus.

IMHO, weapons stored in dorm rooms is a bad idea. My biggest problem is the sheer amount of people in the vicinity of your weapon.

1) You have to 100% trust your roommate. Sure, you can change roommates. BUT, there is no way you can get everyone with someone they like or trust. Rules do have to apply to everyone, not just some.

2) Being with a roommate, they will have access to your locked container. Anything short of a heavy duty safe, including those $80 cheapies from Wal-Mart, is easily carried off. Again, trust issues abound.

3) The fact that your roommate is a felon/drug user (probably a decent chance on a college campus), would probably raise issues.

4) The setup of dorms allow many people the chance to be in and out of your room. Once again, not paying close attention to your locked container is a risk for theft.

5) Do you trust your roommate to lock the door everytime they leave? I can speak for a fact that about 70% of doors were never locked in my hall.

6) Space is usually a premium in dorm rooms, I honestly had nowhere to put a gunsafe, even if I was allowed.

My reservations are not moral ones, simply I don't see a viable securing option for weapons stored in dorm rooms.

As for CCW on campus elsewhere, I really see no reason it shouldn't be treated like any other part of the community.

 

[FTA84]

+1 on attempting to do it for faculty/staff first. I think that people are way way more willing to accept this idea.

Once they take this then you could push to treat a college campus (except maybe dorm rooms with more than one student) as any other public place.

 

[RubenZ]

Jef said it better than I.

His list of reasons is EXACTLY why I say Dorm Rooms is a bad idea to store weapons.

 

[Prince Yamato]

OK, so far this is how it's looking:

*General daily carry: (walking around campus): same as state CCW (this was an obvious one)

*Guns in student residences (dorms):
-guns in undergrad residences: Carry = OK but storage (for residents is problematic)
-guns in graduate housing: Carry and storage= same as off-campus housing

Weapon not on person- must be stored in locker, it is the owner's responsibility to properly secure weapon

*Punishment for weapons violations since it would be a violent threat, most universities punish that with expulsion, then turn the student over to state police.

*Self defense policy someone had pointed out earlier that it would have to basically be the same as the state's, which makes sense. I would also say that staff/RAs should have a serious sit-down talk with students about lethal force and when it can and can't be used (as much for people who would use the lethal force as those who it could be potentially used against).

Keep it comin' folks! This is gettin' good

 

[CPshooter]

The college you described sounds alot like mine.. except add another 20,000 students and you have Purdue University, West Lafayette.

I think about this issue all the time ever since the VT shooting. As a soon-to-be junior student at Purdue, I would LOVE to see concealed carry allowed. I was at a point where I almost carried to class just because I felt that I was entitled to do so after the VT shooting. Maybe I'm wrong, but as a legal CCW permit holder and resident of Indiana, I saw no reason that I shouldn't be able to protect my life incase of another foreign nut-job snapping and pulling a gun out on campus...or in class for that matter. The only campus rule I was aware of was that no firearms, drugs, or alcohol were allowed in university residences (aka dorms). I lived in an off-campus apartment this past year, so I figured even if I did carry on campus I wouldn't be breaking any rules (that I was aware of), and I'd just be another law-abiding citizen of Indiana.

On that note, a few years back a Purdue student snapped, got ahold of a shotgun, and slaughtered TWO R.A.s in a dorm along with himself!

Add to that SEVERAL suicides in the past 3 years, and a 3+ month old corpse found in a high voltage room in one of the dorms this past year, and it is safe to say that colleges are full of VERY unstable people.

Kids these days don't have it as easy as most older folks tend to think. They live lives full of uncertainty, confusion, and more pressure than you could ever imagine. I know this because I'm an engineering student and it's rough sometimes. An asian student jumped off a parking garage 2 years ago and left a note saying the "pressure was too much."

If you ask me, students should be allowed to conealed carry ANYWHERE on campus, including dorms. Carrying to and from class should also be allowed. To make it simple, I think the campus should just be considered part of the state and follow the same rules and regulations that the state requires to legally CCW...that goes for all buildings, dorms, dining halls, etc.

 

[BothellBob]

What I remember: Washington State University 1965-1969; lots of us kept guns in our dorm rooms; we often just left them leaning in the corner or in the closet; we kept our rooms locked. I didn't have a rifle on campus, but I kept a handgun in my desk drawer. I was 20.
During my senior year my bride and I got married and moved off campus; then we kept a rifle and the pistol in our house. We lived out in the wheat fields in an old farmhouse. The landlord lived a hundred feet away in the new farmhouse. He was pleased to have me shoot anything that messed with his wheat.
I have no idea if anyone carried. I recall no firearm incidents of any kind. Have we turned into a bunch of raving degenerates in the last 40 years?
BothellBob - WSU '69 - Go Cougs!

 

[RubenZ]

Have we turned into a bunch of raving degenerates in the last 40 years?

That right there is the key. Yes we have.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Have we turned into a bunch of raving degenerates in the last 40 years?

Yes, otherwise we wouldn't be debating lawful citizens carrying firearms on campuses to protect themselves from crazed psychos.

 

[SBD]

This is a very productive discussion.

Has anyone here ever heard of a college student getting caught CC'ing, and, if so, what happened?

To those of you who attend a college/university that does not allow CC--how do you personally handle it (i.e. comply, don't comply, carry a non-firearm weapon, etc.)?

 

[jefnvk]

Have we turned into a bunch of raving degenerates in the last 40 years?

Go stay in a dorm for a few days. Too many people from non-gun backgrounds, too many from high crime areas where guns = bad, too many that are just too stupid to be alive. Also too many that would take off with the gun if for no other reason than to sell it for beer money. And this is from a smallish (~6000) college who voted republican last election, and who has an IDPA=style pistol club.

At the risk of being flamed, for the CC question, the school I attend is safe enough that no CC doesn't concern me to a great extent. Yes, I know, I'm not aware enough, you never know when, I'm in a false sense of security, etc. In all honesty, I'm more worried about bears in the parking lot (and yes, that does happen) than people. Violent crimes can and do happen anywhere. I'm not pretending that they can't happen here. However, getting an education is as important as being as secure as possible, and I'm not skipping college because I cant carry there.

 

[Autolycus]

I would say just let the kids have the guns in their dorms like they would in their houses. We can allow them to have bats and other things so what makes the gun different? All this talk about lockboxes is rediculous in my opinion. Do you lockup your gun everytime you cant have it? If so great. If you just stick it in your bag or carseat that will work as well.

Let them carry it everywhere just like they could if they were offcampus. As for lockboxes that the school should have, I disagree.

If the school does not allow carrying because of state law then the school should be forced to have a weapon storage area. But if they do allow carry then they should not be forced to have a storage facility.

Either way I would suggest that the states just allow carry on campus like they do in other places. A campus is no different than anywhere else. Alcohol can play just as much of an issue on or off campus.

Alcohol use on campuses is higher than in a non campus area, but it is not nearly as bad as the media and Hollywood would have you believe. Remember that the media glorifies things and over exxagerates so that they can sell stories.

Either way I am dissapointed that so many would try to infringe the rights of students based upon the fact they are younger or are more likely to drink.

 

[Autolycus]

Oh and I wanted to add that storage facilities would not be forced upon private universities. But state schools would have to so that the state does not violate our rights.