Concealed Carry on Campus- Skeleton Policy

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Storage facilities already exist at at least 2 schools. Michigan Tech and Lake State both have them (well, at least LSSU had them a few years back, dunno if they still do).

Basically ours was a locked, secured room with a bunch of plywood lockers. Only two problems were it was next to laundry, so heat and humidity were ridiculious, and finding anyone to open the room was sometimes a pain.

And yes, there is a much higher rate of drinking in college v. out of college. The media, if anything, doesnt report mist if the stuff that happens. Again, my experience from my college, yours may be different.
 
And yes, there is a much higher rate of drinking in college v. out of college. The media, if anything, doesnt report mist if the stuff that happens. Again, my experience from my college, yours may be different.

Anyone who thinks the majority of college students of age or under don't spend their weekends drinking is gravely misinformed. That's why I have the who issue with CCW in the dorms. Was it Letitia Baldrige who said that one of the plagues on modern society is that we've let the teen years extend into the late 20s? Let's say we do allow it though, has anyone thought of the repercussions?

The first thing the antis are going to go for is, "We're going to have drunk kids shooting each other". I'm sure it won't be epidemic, but I think it is a reasonable possibility.

So, going back to the main gist of the article...

At an public meeting of "AR-15" a concerned mother of a student stands up and asks:

"I have a daughter who'll be a freshman at Imaginary University this fall. I've heard that your university allows students who have CCW permits to keep their guns in the dorms. My family doesn't own guns, so I'm not familiar with them. How do you prevent people who shouldn't have access to the guns from getting access to them?"

Note: In a real forum, her question would probably be a little more convoluted and you'd probably have to ask it for her. The part in bold is probably what a long drawn out oration would amount to.
 
Anyone who thinks the majority of college students of age or under don't spend their weekends drinking is gravely misinformed. That's why I have the who issue with CCW in the dorms.
But the drinking occurs outside the dorms -- often in places where those over 21 can CCW anyway.

And yet somehow, those who can legally CCW at an off-campus party don't seem to be shooting each other as often as the viewers-with-alarm would have us believe.
 
But the drinking occurs outside the dorms -- often in places where those over 21 can CCW anyway

Try again. I've seen drinking up to and including quarter barrels in dorm rooms.

To allow weapons in dorm rooms, there has to be a way to secure them. And that is the hardest thing in my mind about this.
 
Sorrry, hit submit before I was finished.

Fixed it above, but I was saying the exact opposite.

However, drinking isn't the reason I am against it in dorm rooms. If there were proper storage, it would be a non issue.
 
So why is it the state's responsibility to make sure the guns stored on campus don't fall into the wrong hands? Shouldn't it be the people who own them's responsibility? Why should the state mandate how you store your firearms? You are essentially renting a dorm room. Why is it different because it is on state property? Why should folks who aren't 21 not be allowed to have long arms in their dorms in a state school. After all, they have a right to bear arms, be it on state property or at home. Why should those old enough to carry be allowed to bear arms and not those who are only able to buy a rifle or shotgun?
 
The issue of securing a gun in a dorm

Starting from the outmost layer of security and going inward:

1: lack of anonymity Despite your best efforts to conceal, your roommate is likely to know, and depending on that person, several other people up to the entire hall know. This makes your room a target for break in.

2: access to room Depending on the university, besides you and your roommate, the Resident Advisors, janitorial staff, and maintenance staff have access to the room. Additionally, your roommate my have guests while you are away. Also worthy of note is that many dorm rooms lack so much as a deadbolt to secure the door.

3. inability to hide A dorm room of roughly 12ftx12ftx8ft doesn't have many options to hide something - and fewer places to secure something.

4. cost prohibitive to secure something few storage devices secure things adequately for this sort of environment. A lock/lockbox can be defeated easily when you're out (not even to class, say when you shower). Even an expensive RSC only is rated to hold out for 5mins against a screwdriver and hammer. (see this thread, post #2 for a photo of an RSC defeated in less than that http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=220278&highlight=axe ) For those that think that the noise would be noticed - dorms are loud, and I have personally seen people using a power saws on a regular basis (some people like building their own furniture, and as long as it wasn't quiet hours, you couldn't do much.) and have been introduced to a genre of music called "power noise/industrial" which has many of the same sounds.

Now, how to deal with all of this, without an armory:
1+2: requires someone to get a single room to themselves - avoids publicity and traffic. This also means that concealed would be required of students who live in dorms - no open carry.
3+4: could be dealt with if the university installed (since they wouldn't want people with a variety of containers making many holes in the room) handgun-sized (for cost reasons) RSCs in the rooms (bolted to floor/wall). This would have to be all the singe-rooms, otherwise it would quickly become known who had the "gun" rooms. This comes back to DixieTexian's point of discriminating against those with long-arms, and why the university would pay for this.

How to deal with all of this, with an armory:
this would probably be the cheaper option for the university, setting up a repository for firearms that are not being carried (or kept within arm's reach). Having it at the campus police station solves issue of hours and having a trusted staff, but makes it harder for those who want to carry. However, that is likely the route a university would take for cost reasons.

Random other idea I had, that requires some student-networking: Carry buddies:
set up a residential community (aka all in the same dorm/hall - and everyone in the hall must be a participant to live there) for those who wish to carry essentially all the time. Then if you needed to go somewhere (shower, or place that your CCW/CHL permit does not allow in your state) you would be required to drop off your gun with someone who will be with the gun the entire time. This way, there are no unattended guns, which prevents the theft problems (you'd have to trust at least one other carrier for this to work), without the inconvenience of going elsewhere for off-person storage. Cons for this are that it loses the anonymity factor - if you're in the "Carry Community" people will know you're armed. On the plus side, it would be amazingly easy to get together groups for range trips :D

For off-campus students, I don't see any need for special university accommodations, if you take, say, a swimming class, you'd need to store it beforehand.

These are just some ideas I came up with, and probably need some ironing out for Prince Yamato's goal of having a skeleton policy that could be presented to a university.
 
The point I'm trying to make, is dorm rooms are nowhere near even living in a house with a bunch of other people. I don't think people who haven't lived in rooms, realize this.

Unless you and your roommate are both very anti-social, there are gonna be people in and out of your room all day long. Think of a hotel full of people. Now, think of them wanting to socialize with you. Or your roommate socializing with them, having them over even if you don't want them.

Maybe that is the best analogy. You are in a hotel, filled with 300 people you don't know. You share a room, quite possibly with someone you don't know. All of these people are mixing and mingling in each others rooms. Now, you have to live here. When your roommate has 10 of his new friends in the room, and you leave your gun there, how is it secured? There is no room for a standup gunsafe, at lest not in any of the dorm rooms I have been in. One room was honestly two beds, two dressers and two desks, placed end to end with about a 2.5' aisle between the two sets.

What I am asking for, is just a simple scenario of how a gun is gonna be secure in the room, when not under direct control of the owner. I have no quealms against guns in the room, just myself, I can't see a viable method of securing. About the only thing I could think of, is a small safe for pistols, but even then there is no way to secure it to anything.

And while you may think of a dorm room as a rented apartment, it isn't. Looking over the paperwork for the dorms, and the house I am now living in, RAs had more control over dorm rooms than the landlord has over this house.
 
OK, Sidrite has some interesting ideas, with the carry buddy/armed hallway idea. And I might point out, armories already exist, and work well enough if there is someone around to open it for you.
 
Starting from the outmost layer of security and going inward:

1: lack of anonymity Despite your best efforts to conceal, your roommate is likely to know, and depending on that person, several other people up to the entire hall know. This makes your room a target for break in.
How is this any different from students living off-campus? Yet it's not a problem for them.
2: access to room Depending on the university, besides you and your roommate, the Resident Advisors, janitorial staff, and maintenance staff have access to the room. Additionally, your roommate my have guests while you are away. Also worthy of note is that many dorm rooms lack so much as a deadbolt to secure the door.
How is this any different from students living off-campus? Yet it's not a problem for them.


3. inability to hide A dorm room of roughly 12ftx12ftx8ft doesn't have many options to hide something - and fewer places to secure something.
How is this any different from students living off-campus? Yet it's not a problem for them.

4. cost prohibitive to secure something few storage devices secure things adequately for this sort of environment.
How is this any different from students living off-campus? Yet it's not a problem for them.
 
Random other idea I had, that requires some student-networking: Carry buddies:

That's actually a really good idea. It could be extended to like a "hall monitor" type person, or perhaps could be included in the duty of RA. This would also screen out problem RAs as well. You'd basically need a spotless record.

Keep it coming folks! These answers are impressive. :)
 
Reminds me of a comment from another thread. Would someone please explain to me how it is possible to forbid possession of guns in college dorms without violating the requirement that "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"?

How large must an infringement be before it is unacceptable? Is this just another case of This infringement is OK because it doesn't negatively affect me?
 
If your gun is stolen from you by one of your roommate's buddies as a joke or taken from you and played with like a toy in the hallway by a section-mate then I think that would qualify as depriving you of your right to bare arms.
 
To address Vern's comments:

1: I would assume those that live off campus and want to carry would either: live alone, or live with trusted individuals. This removes the issue of someone spreading the info. Second, apartments are generally larger, spaced further apart, and less heavily traveled, leading to fewer people watching the comings and goings.

2. Off campus, you'll generally get notice of work being done in your apartment and can arrange to be present. Dorm - they may just open and enter (happened when they decided to verify smoke detectors at dorm and a few other occasions).

3. A dorm room might have two closets in that 12x12ft space. An apartment usually has several, and tend to be larger 300sq.ft+ compared to ~150 sq. ft. Most dorms I know of are cinder-block construction - hard to bolt something to. Apartments tend to have gypsum/wood construction that can be used to anchor something.

4. true, though I feel you can get away with a lesser storage container off campus, thanks to the reduced people traffic.

wjustinen how does it work? simple: they call it a code of conduct. They can argue that you agreed to abide by their policies while there, and you had the choice of whether or not to attend. See this article for an instance of them denying someone a degree and teaching certification based on a photo that may have been a student drinking (and she's over 21 too) http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/index.php?id=2029 . It is crazy, but that seems the standard these days.
 
Vern, I'm not trying to sound like an ass, but have you been in a college dorm? For the points:

1) Yes, being a target is no different. The difference there, would be that you dont have 300 people walking by your bedroom door off campus and not looking suspicious.

2) It wouldn't be an issue, if you had a way to secure any guns that may be in the room at that point. If your wife was throwing an Avon party (not being sexist or anything, just trying to draw real world similiarities) with a bunch of co-workers you never met, would you leave any guns you had just lying out? How many people have access to your house, and are allowed to come in at any time?

3) Space - again my biggest issue. THERE IS NO WHERE TO PUT A SAFE IN A DORM ROOM. Again, you're in a hotel of 300 or so people, your door may or may not be locked. Are you just going to leave a gun on the night stand?

4) Even if I wasn't worried about someone using my weapon, the fact that there is no way to keep someone from simply walking off with it, even to just pawn it, still doesnt sit well with me. In fact, nothing of value got stored in my dorm room, except for my computer.

Living off campus, is it perfect? No. I do have a room to myself that was bigger than my dorm room, though, with space for a gun cabinet. I did get to pick who I lived with, all of whom have been shooting for a long time. When the time comes that there are drunks in the area, again I can lock up guns.

Simply put, leaving the gun out is fine if its you and your family. When its you, and your roommate, and your friends, and your roommates friends, and the wierd kid from down the hall that wants to play X-Box, and your neighbor's friend from downstate with a criminal record that have access to the room, and unsecured gun, it is a much different situtation.
 
Oh, as far as dorm control, even though I was 21, there were only certain parts of the dorms that had rooms I could drink in and not get into trouble. Even then, I had to get an alcohol permit, or I was in as much trouble as a minor if I got caught (happened to a buddy, got caught drinking in a room without a permit when he was 21, still got to go through all the classes and 'rehab'). Heck, if I was drunk in the hallways I could get in trouble. If I was caught with airsoft/paintball stuff in a dorm room, I could be kicked out.
 
I know in the state of New York(where I am NYS University Police Officer) CCW on campus for residential students probably won't fly.

In NYS as per State law CCW is allowable only if specific permission is granted by the President or Dean of the facility. In my case, permission has been denied twice.
 
Anyone who thinks the majority of college students of age or under don't spend their weekends drinking is gravely misinformed.

I don't, but then I guess I wouldn't be counted in the "majority."

In either case, here's my take on it as a college student:

Any student with a CCW should be able to carry concealed on campus, period. Any professor as well.

However, if the student is living in the dorm room they would have to follow the established rules regarding the storage of their firearm(s) in that dormitory. For instance, when I lived in the dorms, if you had a gun you were required to store it in the firearms lockers which were in a locked room in the basement, and you were required to find an RA if you wanted to access your firearm.

This isn't a huge problem with me, because in my mind when you live in a dorm you are entering into a private contract with the college/university, and any rules they decide to establish in terms of firearms in that contract is up to them. If you disagree with that contract, then find a place off campus.
 
This isn't a huge problem with me, because in my mind when you live in a dorm you are entering into a private contract with the college/university
So what if it is a public university? You can talk all about how insecure dorms rooms are all you want, but it still doesn't get around a school that recieves public funding violating my right to bear arms. I have lived on campus for three years. I picked my roomate after my first year. I could have easily picked my roomate after my first semester. If I had known anyone going to the school, I could have picked to live with them instead of a pot luck roomate. Assuming a University has a similar policy, why the fuss? Pick a roomate that you trust. It isn't the governments job to trust your roomate, it is yours. Of course, if he is a felon, then things get complicated. Choose a different roomate. As in someone who isn't a felon. It's not a hard solution. As far as staff or RA's entering your room, don't sit around playing with your gun. I believe they legally have to knock here (or they do anyways because they don't want to walk in on some fat people...) to make sure no one is there before they can enter. When someone knocks, put your guns away. Hard, ain't it?
 
Dixie....I assume when you started living in the dorm you signed a contract, did you not? That is a private contract between you and the university, and has nothing to do with the state, whether the university receives money from the state or not. Its an unfortunate gray area, but I believe that the same principle still applies. You can of course try and get those rules changed, but if that fails and you do not wish to abide by the rules stipulated in the contract you signed, then simply move off campus.
 
I don't see how they have to get all bent out of shape about any possible violation of the first ammendment if they recieve public funds, yet they fragrantly violate the second. Inconsistency. For that matter, since you sign a contract, why can't they segregate students based on race? People are just so used to their second amendment being violated that they don't even notice it. Now when it comes to ther amendments, people get up in arms.
 
So what if it is a public university? You can talk all about how insecure dorms rooms are all you want, but it still doesn't get around a school that recieves public funding violating my right to bear arms.

Federal buildings get public money, and I'm pretty sure you cant have guns there either.

Playing by the original rules:
Merely stating the second amendment is not an answer. It won't console the trustees or itchy parents. The 2A would work as a nice preamble to the university policy, however. Above all, you need to be realistic in what is allowed. So basically, the policy is mainly concerned with pistols (limited space on campus), but can be used to address shotguns and rifles as well. Forget class 3, because most students can't afford it any way, and if they could, they would probably live off campus anyway. You must take into account the idiocy of college students. Saying, "well if they're stupid and they ____ they get what they deserve".

It is easy to say 'Its my 2A right'. What that probably won't get you though, is any sort of policy at all. You can say that it is your right to leave all your guns loaded and sitting out with the door wide open, and if anyone touches them then you are completely blameless. Heck, I'll agree with you. However, that isn't how the world works. A school is going to lose more money then they are going to gain by implementing a policy such as this, in addition to taking on a buttload of liability. Don't kid yourself. Schools are after money too. Could this generate new interest in the school? Sure. Could it also turn a lot of people (read: people that have never really been around guns before, the majority of the school populace) away? Absolutely.
 
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