Confrontation: A double-edged sword

[MachIVshooter]

Face it, if you have to shoot someone (even if they start it) you are facing a mountain of potentially expensive problems. Possible legal trouble and more than likely a civil suit. Even if you win the civil suit, your lawyer won't be cheap.

I'm most certainly not emphasizing the escalation of a situation, especially not to that point. Obviously, there is a need to evaluate every situation and decide if there can be any room between saying nothing and going to defcon one. In most cases, there's lots of medium.

There are a great many things that can be said to a rude invidual to let them know that their behavior is duly noted and not appreciated, without becoming an aggressor. When that individual behaves in such capacity, you can use some level of "hey, that was uncalled for. Why don't you apologize to (victim of said beahvior)". You don't have to say "HEY! *******! Don't F*%$ing talk to him/her that way or I'll tune you up!". Obviously, the latter is not only going to create a very hostile situation, but the point of your intervention will be lost in the angry exchange.

On that note, I'm not even bringing road rage into this thread. There is no safe, peaceful way to deal with rude behavior in vehicles, as people instantly become hostile, aggressive and invincible behind the wheel, and the danger level for everyone in the vicinity starts out far higher than any exchange between pedestrians. I do not participate in road rage.

So what this taught me, is that people have expectations or your behavior that might (or might not) be reasonable from you. Depending on how you react to this, can make you appear belligerent, or submissive. Being polite, and having "good manners" is cultural, as shown my my story

You make some excellent points, Gungnir, but the types of behavior I'm referring to are pretty much universally unacceptable, regardless of cultural nuances. We're not talking about subtle things that might be interpreted as impolite. This thread is in regard to blatently rude behavior that is indentifiable through language and culture barriers. You know the type I mean.

Keep the replies coming, guys (and gals). I want to hear more about what everyone thinks on this particular aspect of our contemporary society.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

You can't get in to fights like that if you want to carry a firearm. You risk having a fight go wrong, someone might bring out a knife, forcing you to shoot. I consider this immoral. Also, if that happened after you fought with someone over something, you can be charged with murder.

 

[Sato Ord]

Let's just say that I do believe that, in general, there are some people who are just too darn arrogant to be left to their own devices and need to be called on their behavior.

Yesterday was a perfect example for me. I won't go into details, but if this had been 1889 instead of 2009 I would have invited that particular little snot outside for a bit of a lesson.

However, I also know, and he would probably have left a brown stain in his pants if he had known, that I was carrying a .40 cal with 15 rounds in it. So, the last thing I want to do is allow the situation to escalate where, even if I end up in the right, I also end up as the crazed gun nut who opened fire in the mall, which we all know is how the media would paint it if I didn't override my body's natural desire to strangle the living $*** out of some @****** who desperately deserves it.

Even if I don't end up drawing down on the twerp, the cops are going to get involved, and they are going to put us both in the back of a police car while they do their paperwork thing, and everyone is going to get all worked up when I show the boys in black my permit and hand over my shootin' iron.

Yeah, it's a sad situation when we limit the warriors of our society who would snatch these punks up and shake them till their eye balls rattle, but welcome to the new world order. It's all peace, love, and political correctness.

Now excuse me while I go vomit. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot about being PC, excuse me while I slip off to the WC and have a personal protein spill.

Oh yeah, I've been known to get a little cranky and tell idiots about their behavior when they get obnoxious in public. You're right, most of them just don't know how to handle it. They are so used to the idea that no will have the balls to say something that they usually sneak off pretty quick when you point them out.

 

[Macmac]

DoD, I didn't know you were in Maine.. I am just over the border in NH.

Strange world it has become. I am a biker, look like a biker and when out riding act like a biker. I don't take much guff from anyone, but I don't get much guff from anyone either.

A while back I went to attend a wedding in Ct, a normal 5 hour ride, but this ride was anything but normal and that day i was a Buck Skinner because the wedding was full of Skinners, so I took a cage (car) This day was ment to be burned in hell.

The first problem was on I-90 where somewhere more than 40 miles ahead there was some sort of problem. I know it was more than 40 miles ahead because to get off I-90 I had to go those 40 miles. That was at about 6 inches of movement at a time.

Like always I was armed, and i could give a rat's backside about Mass and their version of social LAW. So on the Interstate it was very interesting to see people cut each other off, when traffic was going no where.

Why people even got out of their cages, and some sat on the steel guard rails, while other chose to fist fight. I was one of the rail sitters but entered into no fist fights. What for? to go 6 inches and fight again?

Eventually I made it to the exit where the state police were demanding everyone exit the interstate, which was all I wanted, to get off I-90.

To me it was just incredible seeing that me me me thing on the interstate.

Had a great time in 5 more hours and headed home. That turned out to be different to. Like I said I don't take any guff.

At that time I lived in a converted barn, up in the hay loft. I had that level and the 3rd most upper level as well, and in summer it was hot up there. The 2nd level was divided so the front part was a summer bedroom outside the inside, a porch if you will sealed off by French doors and a wall. Never the less in hot summer our bed was on that porch.

The house to the barn was a multi rental, and so that night as I pulled into my drive way I saw the results of a party from the house. Cars everywhere.

Some punk kid is in the bushes taking a whizz, as I step out of my car and see my other car has been hit as it was left parked some 10 hours or more before. No note. Then I hear the patter if tiny feet on MY STAIRS. Pretty interesting.

I go there and a girl passes me by, and I head up wondering. At the top of the stairs is a hot frying pan with hot dogs in it on my braided rug. I flung the mess down the stairs, and went to my bed and turned on the lamp.

In MY BED was a mess of blankets not mine, on the floor was 6 huge black garbage bags filled with who knows what! On my dresser in a brass dish (mine) was a few ounces of the wild woodland weeds (most definately not mine) That dish and all went out the loft door.

The next thing I know this punk kid is behind me, sayin "DUDE, This is my bed for the night!" I glanced at him an began to throw the garbage bags out the loft door (hay used to come in the loft door, so it was a long way down)

The kid repeats himself... I look at the kid and say, Kid you have 0.5 milliseconds to get out of my sight, or there, you see that bucket of tomahawks, I will plant one of them right betwen your eyes!

Smartly he leaves, and then I hear a female sobbing below. I go investigate and she wants her purse.. I go get it, and hand it to her nicely.

I just can't believe some people! The next morning I find a glass pipe, with a very small bowl to burn something, but I am not to this day sure what one would burn in a bowl that small.

 

[JeffDilla]

Mac, Kudos to you for keeping your composure during that whole mess. I am pretty passive, but jeez, I really don't know how I would have reacted in that situation.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Yes, good for you, Mac. I'm guessing you spend some time in Laconia, and learned how to avoid confrontations from some of the best. I ride, too, but I'm pretty low-key. I ride an antique foreign make, having sold my Harley years ago. I live in an area filled with 81 and other 1 percenters, and I get on great with most of them, but they always laugh a little when I putt-putt up to the hangouts on my little old bike. It's in fun, not disdain -- in most cases. I just avoid the ones who sneer.

 

[Jim_100]

I say start swinging as soon as possible. But just not when you are carrying a gun.

 

[230RN]

I've often said that carrying a gun is a lot like being on Probation.

While I recognize the longe-range detriment to society for letting things go, I also recognize the short-range detriments to me personally.

Many years ago I read a study where mice or rats (I forget which) were given all the food and water they needed, but the experimenters let the population increase. At a certain population density, the animals started to kill each other... even though all their needs were met. I wish I could document that study, but it was well over 45 years ago.

And, since we're being allowed to express our own frustrations at boorish behavior, about a month ago I was in a little bodega looking over the packaged sandwiches on the cooler racks. There was only one ham sandwich left --the rest were egg salad --and I was just about to reach for it when suddenly an arm snaked around my head and grabbed it. I hadn't even realized someone was behind me. (Yeah, yeah, "situational awareness," but I was hungry, if that's an excuse.)

Not an "excuse me," not a word, the guy just reached around me and got the sandwich and went off toward the checkout stand.

I was appalled and angered, but I let it go. Had to. After all, people like that are simply not going to learn anything by challenging them on it.

Interestingly, I forgot about the incident in a short time, and only remembered it as I was reading this thread.

Oh, yeah, I was packing.

Well, the egg salad sandwich wasn't all that bad.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Sato Ord]

230RN, I remember reading about that study. Population stress is a serious thing.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

for me the confrontation thing is mostly a matter of what i do. i have zero control over other folks. so i draw lines in the sand that i don't cross. on those occaisions where i have to do something i usually ask em if they are ok and ask nicely. thats not usually what they expect and its hard for them to escalate with that. i then try, and i emphasize try, to ask em if i did something wrong to em that i wasn't aware of . i'm not a big guy at all so i don't intimidate. i have gotten good results with this over the years. though i always have plan b. and c and d. like to fight just found out its not in my best interest anymore. sometimes when i ask i find out i did do something or at least they think i did. if i did i apologise. had a guy wanna kill me once over a traffic incident that i truly wasn't aware of. i asked he told me i said i was sorry and he calmed right down. i don't have my identity and self worth tied up in getting the last word or being proved right anymore. selfworth doesn't come from strangers perception of you. and even on the rough construction sites i don't have trouble.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

So here is my concern: As a society, are we not creating a worse situation by allowing this behavior to go unchecked? I mean, people who behave in such ways tend to push until pushed back, and by allowing them to push harder and harder, are we possibly creating a situation in where the push back comes only at a level that involves deadly force?

It is not my job to correct the behavior of random strangers who disregard social mores. Further, if I were to appoint myself self-proclaimed keeper of standards and arbiter of bad behavior, it would only make matters worse. The *******s of the world don't care what I think and have well-developed coping mechanisms.

Obviously I make an exception for my kids and for certain close friends who might actually care what I think.

The "push back" as you describe it has to come from a figure with actual authority. The way to deal with road rage is to enforce traffic laws. Most road rage starts when someone wants to drive faster than the speed limit or run yellow or red lights or otherwise push limits. It's the decline in basic traffic enforcement in favor of DUI stops that has created this problem.

Beyond that the problem has broadened in the last 20 or 50 or 100 years in the sense that there are more places where a) people are anonymous and b) there is no enforcement. This is a consequence of retailing trends in the U.S. As we move to very large stores operated by low-wage hourly employees with no discretion and no authority to eject people, we see all kinds of poor behavior. You go to a Wal-mart, chances are you won't see anyone you know, and no one is going to say anything if you behave like an ass. It wasn't that way at smaller owner-operated shops in the 1960s.

I don't think the underlying percentage of jerks has changed all that much.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

MostlyHarmless: "You go to a Wal-mart, chances are you won't see anyone you know, and no one is going to say anything if you behave like an ass. It wasn't that way at smaller owner-operated shops in the 1960s."

Exactly right. You never hear "Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to leave, if you cannot ..." anymore. And I think it's for the very reason you cite -- the clerk has no authority to eject anyone, and the manager is off the scene and doesn't want to get involved if he can avoid it.

 

[MachIVshooter]

You can't get in to fights like that if you want to carry a firearm. You risk having a fight go wrong, someone might bring out a knife, forcing you to shoot. I consider this immoral. Also, if that happened after you fought with someone over something, you can be charged with murder.

I say start swinging as soon as possible. But just not when you are carrying a gun.

Guys-

I was pretty clear in my opening post that I am not encouraging conflict here. There is a lot of distance between making someone aware that you disapprove of their behavior and going to blows (except with drunk folks).

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Discretion is necessary if you choose, as I do, to tell folks in no uncertain terms that their manners are lacking. I'm not going to put myself in a situation that will more than likely escalate to a violent level. My judgement of character in this regard has been quite sound to date. I also do take advantage of a somewhat intimidating presence I can have; at the risk of sounding a braggard, not many folks seem willing to engage a very fit 27 year old. I understand that not everyone has this advantage, and that is where the discretion comes into play.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

not many folks seem willing to engage a very fit 27 year old.

thats like a lotto ticket you only need one and likely he is either not too bright, or packing the difference and willing. both real bad. heck even if you get a dweeb with a death wish and you "win" you come out looking bad . you could end up like a sous chef i worked with he killed 3 people in three seperate incidents. each one good by itself. the cumulative effect got him booted from oz after the second one there.

 

[Just One Shot]

The situation you described is only the tip iof the iceberg. This type of behavior can be expected when a society rejects the teachings of God.

I'm not trying to turn this into a religious discussion but the Bible fortold of these days.

2 Timothy 4:3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts. 4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned toward fables.


Matthew 24 3. And as He sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of Thy coming and of the end of the world?" 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you; 5. for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled, for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there shall be famines and pestilences and earthquakes in divers places. 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10. And then shall many lose faith and shall betray one another and shall hate one another. 11. And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many.

12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

P.S. Don't view backing down as weakness in an individual. In some cases it takes more strength to walk away then it does to react with violence.

Our human nature makes us want to confront a person when conflict arises. But some of us choose to turn the other cheek as we are directed in scripture. Trust me, as a person who deals with anger it isn't as easy as it seems.

 

[GregGry]

People have, no doubt, become increasingly rude over the last half century in just about every way. This trend has accelerated even more over the last two decades, as our society has become very self-absorbed, with instant gratification and a me, me, me entitlement attitude being all to pervasive. Technology, especially cell phones, has made this phenomenon even worse.

If you compare today to what it was like in the 1800s, I think you will find that overall people are better today then in the past. We have come a long way.

 

[Rezin]

Just remember, the rude guy ahead of you in line, may totally out-gun you...

...AND he may be the nicest guy on the planet, just having a bad moment of a worse day.

Real-life example:

I am a very easy going type and am usually relaxed, laid-back and unassuming, but not too long ago I had just broken a tooth and I was feeling miserable in every way you can imagine. Well, as you stated in your example, I was a little rude to someone I normally would never have snapped at because I was in quite a bit of pain. Did they deserve it? Yes, but normally I never would have done it.

Had you chosen that day to "say something" I can't say what would have happened, but recalling how I felt, we could have had a problem. Because of the pain, I WAS confrontational for a few hours of my otherwise peaceful, quiet life.

And I was armed, as was my wife......

So, what if you chose that moment to escalate because of a comment. Just a passing remark.... then the next person decides that escalation is just fine........and DOES react.....

Then what?

My 2 cents.

 

[rainbowbob]

There is a lot of distance between making someone aware that you disapprove of their behavior and going to blows (except with drunk folks).

I believe that is where you err. And I have also erred similarly. Recently. See this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=425994

You say "except with drunk folks". What about psychotic folks? What about suicidal folks? What about just plain anti-social folks that don't give a tinker's dam about you?

How do you tell the difference? How do you know who will react violently to even your most gentle correction?

Is it worth it?

 

[Rockwell1]

I once spoke to a man at work who wadded up an American flag and threw it on a couch. All I said was "You know that's not right man." He turned beet red and started screaming at me. He actually chased me down the hall yelling and cussing at me to mind my own business.

This afternoon I saw one woman come up out of her desk and get a molecule's thickness from another woman's face over a percieved slight. She was screaming at the other lady telling her to frak off and BEGGING her to fight. This in a "PROFESSIONAL" environment mind you.

The office manager offered "mediation" as opposed to instant termination, due to fears of litigation I'm sure.

I think someone mentioned that Biblically people will become meaner, more violent, more hatefull and crueler as we draw closer to the second coming. I know this isn't a religious board, but to place my comments in proper perspective I have to acknowledge that they're based on my belief that we are approaching that time. If this is true then I'm not going to do anyone any good trying to make silk purses from sow's ears.

 

[A-190]

I just have to ask........................

Would you say something to the jerk if you wernt and had never had a CCW??

I have carried for over 30 years now.
A jerk is a jerk, and if their momma couldn't straighten them out, how can you.
Carrying the gun doesn't make you a bad man.
Not carrying a gun doesn't make you a bad man
willing to take a punch when your right thats a different story.

If you don't like rude behavior, just say so to the jerk, and he will do one of two things.
cuss you out or take a swing.

How many of you are willing to take a punch and NOT pull your gun.

By the way, I have had more that one tell me........"if you wernt wearing that gun belt I would whip your b....t" Most didn't , a couple did.............I wasnt as tuff as I thought either.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Rockwell1: "This afternoon I saw one woman come up out of her desk and get a molecule's thickness from another woman's face over a percieved slight. She was screaming at the other lady telling her to frak off and BEGGING her to fight. This in a "PROFESSIONAL" environment mind you."

I think a lot of blue collar workers might be amazed at what goes on in "professional" environments. All that PMS among the pink collars certainly contributes, but the guys get into it as well. Among other amusing events, we had a senior partner at my large, hoity toity DC law firm throw a stapler at a female associate. Barely missed her head, imbedded itself in the wall. Result: maintenance called, with some spackle.

Another large, hoity-toity firm out west locked a senior partner out of his office over a business dispute. Said partner shrugged, grabbed the fire-ax from the wall, and chopped his way in. I sort of liked that one; I'd do that, too. After all, it's his firm, his files and his door.

 

[Tirod]

Yes I did, because where I come from eye contact is a precursor to physical contact, either violent, or amorous.

I've read a lot of war stories in this thread, but little analysis of what causes the immediate tip-off. Body language has a lot to do with it - facing the "offender" squarely, making intense eye contact, and speaking in a firm tone works to handle about half of most confrontations. The other half figure you don't have the social standing, i.e. authority, rank, or power to say squat.

So it quickly boils down in a nanosecond that some little peon is calling them out and dissing them. A well phrased and intentioned reminder of common social courtesy is cast as a demeaning insult to their ego, not as a helpful hint.

Where did this all come from? Society today in America is more class and rank oriented than ever. What you wear, drive, do, and speak is more important than observing social mores, because the people with power and rank will protect it at all costs. To do less loses them power, and maybe their job - they will be percieved as soft, unable to manage, incapable of results.

When you cast aside ethics instructions based on the Golden Rule - Do to others as you would others do to you - something WILL take its place. In America, it's now a class structure leaning toward the multilevel elitism of India - and rank is protected to protect lifestyle and earnings.

Confrontational tactics are now at the "Best Defense is a good offense" stage with a lot of these people. If you CCW, you can't play the game well - but that doesn't make you powerless. You just have to learn new tactics - conversational and social interaction tactics, not child discipline tactics.

First - YOU GET RESPECT BY GIVING RESPECT. I guarantee half of the issues reported here could have been defused with a proper approach.

Second - STOP LOOKING FOR A FIGHT. Sure, whatever they did may have been wrong - but are you spoiling to put someone down, or really help them? I see a lot of competitiveness out there trying to climb the success ladder by stepping all over people in the way. Pointing out minor errors in handling the flag, crossing the white pedestrian line, getting bumped in a doorway - this is basically juvenile crap, get it?

If there is anything to be learned from this thread, it's that the level of adult maturity and adherence to a higher standard of public behavior is lacking. I would strongly remind all CCW holders to remember that LEO's are also taught how to stand, converse, and approach others so that confrontations aren't escalated. Study, and learn.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Tirod: "If there is anything to be learned from this thread, it's that the level of adult maturity and adherence to a higher standard of public behavior is lacking."

Maybe, but standards vary according to context. Our local taverns for example, see a lot of horsing around. An outsider ducking in for a short drink might think he is in the middle of a minor scuffle about to turn into a major brawl -- shoving, sparring, cursing -- but it's all in fun, among mostly friends. Hopefully the observor doesn't try to get involved or pull a gun in an attempt to raise everyone's maturity level.

 

[CoRoMo]

As a society, are we not creating a worse situation by allowing this behavior to go unchecked? I mean, people who behave in such ways tend to push until pushed back, and by allowing them to push harder and harder, are we possibly creating a situation in where the push back comes only at a level that involves deadly force?

Here's my $0.02
This is still a semi-free country. Rude and inexcusable behavior is legal in most places. Once you see someone break a law, or if you feel that someone is acting violently...


...CALL THE POLICE.

That is what they are paid for.

 

[Zundfolge]

Much of the law regarding self defense (in particular lethal force) is based on the perceptions and experiences of a "reasonable man".

As such, I don't think its reasonable to expect that calling someone on their rudeness is destined to reduce every situation to violence.

Certainly you don't want to go out of your way to escalate a simple "social correction" into violence, but that doesn't mean you should just let them slide either. To do so is to contribute to the decline of our society.*

Politely and directly addressing rude behavior will in most cases get the other guy to apologize or at worse get you cussed at. Calling someone names or threatening him with a butt whooping is NOT politely and directly addressing the behavior.

If someone cuts in line, or is rude to a clerk at Walmart, I don't believe that a "reasonable man" would assume that correcting the offender would automatically end in a "throw down".

If the concern is that if you correct someone and they do react psychotically and you have to put them down then the DA is going to see you as inciting violence, I don't think in 99% of our daily interactions that will be the case.

If you live somewhere where any correction will clearly end in violence then you need to move. Why people insist on living in ghettos (real or imagined) is beyond me.



*if you believe our society has already declined to the point where these trends of narcissism and rudeness cannot be reversed than you either need to move out into the boonies, or start actively working to bring about the downfall of human civilization or you're no better than the brigands.