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Confrontation between Alaska gun store and ATF

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Midwest, Apr 6, 2012.

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  1. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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    Breaking: confrontation between Alaska gun store and ATF

    (I was alerted to this story via the Canadian gun forum canadiangunnutz, it appears to be a new story -dated April 6 2012 and looks like it needs to be looked at further. The BATF is ordering a gun store in Anchorage to turn over the "Bound Book". The BATF claims it is their property, the gun store says otherwise. If this does not belong here please move or delete as you see fit.)

    "According to a memo from the Anchorage Second Amendment Task Force, the Great Northern Guns store in Anchorage was asked to give their Bound Book to the ATF so it could be copied in its totality. The store refused, citing their legal rights and the fact that to do so would be a violation of the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986."

    Continue reading on Examiner.com Breaking: confrontation between Alaska gun store and ATF - National Conservative | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/conservativ...etween-alaska-gun-store-and-atf#ixzz1rK0nFl5J
     
  2. PigButtons

    PigButtons Member

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    Thanks for the posting of this.

    Disturbing article. Thanks for posting. I guess the ATF thought the AK yokels wouldn't know any better.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2012
  3. Midwest

    Midwest Member

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    It was always my understanding that the ATF can look at the book during a regular inspection for compliance purposes.

    Or during an investigation, and then copy only certain relevant information pertinent to that active investigation.

    Or seize the book (s) and everything else in the store while executing a warrant.

    And the lastly if the store goes out of business and the book is less than 20 years old, it is required to be sent to the Martinsburg WV records storage facility and only then becomes ATF property.
     
  4. smalls

    smalls Member

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    Well, I'm glad they told the BATFE to pound sand. Wonder if they'll back down?
     
  5. Taurus 617 CCW

    Taurus 617 CCW Member

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    I worked for a manufacturer a couple of years ago and they were inspected. The entire bound book was uploaded into some sort of laptop database the agent brought. Copied it word for word.
     
  6. bluethunder1962

    bluethunder1962 Member

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    and people say "oh that will never happen in america"
     
  7. Taurus 617 CCW

    Taurus 617 CCW Member

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    It makes me nervous when they say they have the power to do something (even if it violates the constitution) and you will be in trouble if you don't comply.
     
  8. Agsalaska

    Agsalaska Member

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    Wow I know that store well. One of the very few good gun shops left
     
  9. Ed N.

    Ed N. Member

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    Under the law, the ATF can only obtain the entire book when the shop goes out of business. So how tough is it for the ATF to revoke an FFL, forcing a business to close, thereby getting the book?
     
  10. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Wow. GNG is the grand old man of gun stores in this part of Alaska. Really well respected with some of the finest iron to be had anywhere. The staff are also extremely well versed in firearm laws and if they're putting up a fight on this it's not just a fit of pique.

    I believe the license may not be revoked on the whim of the ATF. Like most licenses it's considered a property right and due process must be followed before any revocation. To try to pull GNG's ticket would ignite a storm of trouble for the feds. Half the lawyers in this town, including myself, are longtime customers of Joe and the gang. Judges, doctors, politicians, you name it. Heck many of the FEDS are longtime customers. And there's a lot of very valuable iron sitting on the back shelf on consignment. So I can't imagine they'd try to pull a stunt like yanking the license.

    I suspect the feds will pull in their horns, but if not it's likely to go to court and I'll see if there's anything I can do to help.

    What concerns me more is that this may have been going on all over town and the less-prestigious stores have just been caving in. So now the feds have a complete record of all purchases from FFL's in the city going back years.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  11. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

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    They get the book when the FFL is terminated.

    They only get 4473s that are less than 20 years old.
     
  12. bobbo

    bobbo Member.

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    They want to copy it (even says so in the story). The FFL will get it back. Nobody at the ATF said they won't get it back. The ATF can look at the book anytime. There is no rule saying they can't copy it. I don't see what the big stink is about.

    And why the talk about it violating the Constitution? There's nothing in that document about copying records which, by statute, are open to ATF inspection at any time? I don't get it...

    The Examiner isn't a real news source anyway. If you have a pulse, they'll give you a "job." They used to pay a flat rate of $0.01 per page view, but that has changed (for the worse). It's to real journalism as the Bright Star Motel off Exit 25 is to the Waldorf Astoria.
     
  13. Rob G

    Rob G Member

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    Actually there is. FOPA states that they can only copy information relevant to a criminal investigation. Not the whole book. If they want the whole book they need a warrant based on a criminal prosecution of the FFL in question.

    4th amendmant. You should probably read it.

    Coming by the shop to inspect the records and seizing the whole book to be taken God only knows where to be copied in its' entirety are not the same thing.
     
  14. Agsalaska

    Agsalaska Member

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    I would be surprised if the other gun shops in town have given up their books. I know a lot of those guys pretty well and I doubt they would give in too easily to the ATF. I may be wrong though. But I haven't heard of anyone doing it.
     
  15. mquail

    mquail Member

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    All brought to you by the friendly folks who sponsored Fast and Furious. Gotta love em!
     
  16. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    Actually The United States Constitution gives Congress the authority to regulate Interstate Commerce between the states and 18 USC 922 makes it unlawful for any person not licensed as a manufacturer or dealer in firearms to engage in the business of manufacturing or dealing in firearms. Collectively, the Interstate Commerce Clause and 18 USC 922 are used by the federal goverenment as a means to regulate firearms.

    The recently passed Alaska Firearms Freedom Act addresses this by exempting firearms, firearm accessories, and ammunition manufactured and retained in the state from all federal firearm control laws including registration, as firearms that meet these criteria cannot be regulated by the federal government because they have not traveled in interstate commerce.

    It may well be that gun store in Anchorage is headed for a test case.
     
  17. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    State law is useless. The Alaska Constitution guarantees a right to privacy and that alone would preclude such an action by *STATE* authorities. But these are feds, and no state law can override their laws.

    This turns on federal code and US Constitutional issues.
     
  18. usmarine0352_2005

    usmarine0352_2005 Member

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    Do you think the Alaska Firearms Freedom Act will stand?
    .
     
  19. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    All articles i can find on this subject lead to examiner.com and ammoland.com. Are either a source of reliable information? examiner.com seems to be a wnd type organization.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2012
  20. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

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    State law is useless. The Alaska Constitution guarantees a right to privacy and that alone would preclude such an action by *STATE* authorities. But these are feds, and no state law can override their laws.

    This turns on federal code and US Constitutional issues.


    That is not necessarily true. The 10th Amendment states;

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Imho this is a state rights vs. a over expansive Federal government.
     
  21. Jolly Rogers

    Jolly Rogers Member

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    Dave Workman who publishes in the Examiner.com is a leader in the "Fast and Furious" coverage.
    Link
    I respect the work there.
    Joe
     
  22. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    The "firearm freedom" act has nothing to do with this case. The bound book is created pursuant to a system of federal laws that preempt state law when it comes to regulating licensed dealers. The 10th Amendment does not override the Supremacy Clause. No state law can override federal firearm laws, and the ffa wasn't even designed to address dealer-BATF disputes. Once you have the license you're under their authority. The issue is whether under the applicable federal statutes and regulations BATF has authority to seize entire books and presumably do whatever it wants with the records contained in them.
     
  23. we are not amused

    we are not amused Member

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    At least it's not a Media Matters or MSNBC type organization.

    For your information it is very well respected in the pro-gun community.
     
  24. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    wrongo.

    SCOTUS ruled, after FDR threatened to pack the court, that it could do so. They perverted the meaning of the commerce clause. The intent of the commerce clause was to prevent trade wars between states. It was NOT intended to be used to reach into states to control just about everything. For example, the commerce clause is used to determine which tools are used by surgeons and how they're used. Do you really think the Founding Fathers intended it to be used like that? GCA 1968 is "justified" under the commerce clause and is used to deny Americans their second amendment rights.

    BTW, SAF has a lawsuit regarding abuses of the commerce clause to override the second amendment.
     
  25. we are not amused

    we are not amused Member

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    Obviously you are unaware that there is a Federal Law preventing the establishment of a Federal Gun Registry.

    The only reason to copy the entire book is to get a copy of every gun sale they have made. This is an backdoor attempt to create a gun registry.

    The Clinton Administration attempted to evade this law several time by establishing a "backdoor" gun registry, claiming it was for "administration" or "auditing" purposes only.

    It sounds as if the Obama Regime is attempting to start another "de facto" gun registry.

    All gun owners and gun rights supporters ought to be concerned about this, as any attempt to create a gun registry is counter to the Law.

    By the way, why the hate on the Examiner? Did they refuse your submission? They seem to be a much better source of news than the Mainstream Networks such as NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN or PBS and NPR.:neener:
     
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