Confusing Range Commands

[Single Action Six]

That only works..

We get their attention with hand movement - the eyes pick that up quickly

Hand movements are only good when (and if) you KNOW who the particular person is AND you've already gained their attention. I defy anyone walking BEHIND 20 people to correctly identify (each and every time) the one DEAF/Deaf HOHI person out of those 20 just by observing the back of their head. Can't be done.

Which also brings up the point, hand movements aren't going to do any good then when the RSO is walking BEHIND the shooters on the firing line when the shooters all have their attention downrange shooting toward the targets.. which means the RSO is seeing them from the back (as explained in the above paragraph).

So.. once again I ask: "How do you determine (and what do you do) when you have DEAF/Deaf HoHI people on the line?

Single Action Six

 

[azmjs]

Why does the adolescent mentality that is opposed to authority present itself so often?

 

[jcwit]

Why does the adolescent mentality that is opposed to authority present itself so often?

I agree with you, the same holds true with parents when little janie or johnney is corrected at school, Not my child seems to be the 1st reaction. Mayhap thats where all this comes from, many many years of papa & mama way over protecting and lack of parenting. suppose?

Plus, no matter what happens its never them at fault.

 

[El Tejon]

Range commands? RSOs?

Wow, you guys have like . . . real ranges or something.

If I am at a range that has all that fancy stuff, then I ask the dude in charge or sometimes the dude in charge will give me a heads up or give me a sheet to read and sign before I am allowed on the range.

And just to totally confuse him, I read the range rules.

When in Rome, shoot as the Wromans do.

 

[MEHavey]

Our Situation
Range: 100 Yards, 25/50/75-yard target mounts
Weapons: Rife & Pistol
Firing Positions: 20
Restrictions: None (no 50BMG)
RO Microphone at center position/speakers up & down the line L&R
Red Flashing Light when COLDFiring Intervals: 30 minutes (when > 3-4 shooters present)

Going Cold Commands:
- Cease Fire, Cease Fire, Cease Fire on the Firing Line
- Unload all weapons, Open All Actions, Drop all Magazines
- Make the Line Safe and Step Back from the Line (White line ~2ft behind benches)
As R/O I walk the line first right, then left, to inspect all weapons on the benches, then back to the Mic at the center:
- The Line is safe.
- You may go forward and paste your targets
- While the line is safe, do not handle any weapons at any time for any reason (not even cased ones)
- Do not go forward of the White Line.

Going Hot Commands:
- Is the Range Clear ? (Literally "...everyone take a look....")
- The Range is Clear.
- The Range is HOT.
- Eye & Ear Protection is required at all times....

While COLD:You want to load magazines? Have at it on the tables behind the White Line
You want to clean weapons? Pull them off the line and take them out of the covered firing area entirely and before Cease Fire
You want something left on your bench? Ask me and I will gladly get it for you (except the weapon)
You want to handle a cased weapon behind the White Line (but still in under the firing line cover)? Nope.
You want to carry a cased weapon out of the covered firing area. Nope.

Offhand pistol shooting that we see putting rounds in the dirt/under the target instead of the 100-yard backstop are helped to see what they are doing/risking in richochet. If they can't get the hang of it we put then down on the bench w/ a barrel rest until they get things under control (and we watch them carefully). If there is resistance, we are politely firm. If there is defiance, they are gone.

No automatic weapons (on this range). Neighbors are too close/have been too good to take the risk of offense. Ditto repeated rapid-fire emptying of entire magazines only to be followed by another.

Sin Loi.......

We have really good bunch of people in this club. They are both responsible and a good number are ROs like me, assigned on different days. We absolutely respect each other and the folks who come out to play w/ us. The RO's decision is LAW. Got a problem?/Take it up w/ the Board. But on that day you obey the RO. We will help anyone. From neophyte to expert w/ a never-seen-this-before problem.

I have rarely/if ever had to ask someone to leave over the last 20 years. (Quiet/helpful authority does have its positive aspects that way.)

As a result we have a lot of women who come out because they feel safe, and thereafter they bring their daughters as well as their young sons. Like it or not, they are raising the future. Convince them, ...Make them comfortable,... Make them proficient, ...Make them advocates... then You might have a tomorrow.

Most everyone on board seems to see things in this light and are great folks.

 

[Sam1911]

So.. once again I ask: "How do you determine (and what do you do) when you have DEAF/Deaf HoHI people on the line?

The best answer to this is the same regardless of whether there are hearing-impaired folks or completely able folks on the line.

The cease-fire command is given and the RSO visually confirms that each shooter has opened their bolt and stepped away from the gun in recognition of the cease-fire BEFORE giving the "Range Cold" command to allow folks to go forward of the line.

No RSO worth their jack boots and swagger stick (to hear some tell it ) is going to give a "Range Cold--Proceed Downrange" command without assuring him- or herself that the line is actually COLD, i.e.: that all shooters on the line have received the message and responded appropriately.

It's somewhat of an odd question as everyone will be wearing hearing protection and some will be wearing doubled plugs and muffs, too. We're all deliberately hearing-impaired to one degree or another while on the line.

If someone does not respond to the verbal cues (and/or lights, if present), then the RSO's job is to physically contact them to alert them of the changing range condition -- BEFORE allowing another shooter to move ahead of the line.

Which all reiterates the "WHY" of how it is that each shooter is required to attain some level of visible safe condition with their firearm (bolt open, bolt removed, rifle racked, step back from the line, and/or whatever else is required by that range) before the line is actually declared safe to pass.

And it pretty demonstrably illustrates why the "I gotta be me" theme is so poorly received.

I mean, I hate with a passion that anyone would try to control how I enjoy MY car by telling me I can't drive down the left side of the road, but I play by the rules because such cooperation helps us all enjoy and use the facility together without too many deadly results.

 

[Nushif]

Mayhap thats where all this comes from, many many years of papa & mama way over protecting and lack of parenting. suppose?

Plus, no matter what happens its never them at fault.

Regardless of what's being said. Way highroad. Definitely not an ad hominem.

 

[El Tejon]

And it pretty demonstrably illustrates why the "I gotta be me" theme is so poorly received.

Absolutely. I mean, I'm a swaggering rebel and that's why chicks dig me.

However, when there are guns around, then you better pay attention to "we" rather than "me" and obey the dude-in-charge so no one adds any extra holes.

What's the line from Way of the Gun? "There are guns here!"

 

[MEHavey]

"I gotta be me" theme is so poorly received.

Ignorance is curable.
Stupidity is terminal
Terminal leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth (which your adversaries hit the survivors over the head with).

Such persons need to find another venue.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I can understand the motivation to remain lead-free ... how much were they charging for that magic no-lead ammo?

No idea.

The guys I know who took a class at Sig Academy weren't paying for it; their department or agency was.

No RSO worth their jack boots and swagger stick (to hear some tell it ) is going to give a "Range Cold--Proceed Downrange" command without assuring him- or herself that the line is actually COLD, i.e.: that all shooters on the line have received the message and responded appropriately . . . .


Which all reiterates the "WHY" of how it is that each shooter is required to attain some level of visible safe condition with their firearm (bolt open, bolt removed, rifle racked, step back from the line, and/or whatever else is required by that range) before the line is actually declared safe to pass.

And it pretty demonstrably illustrates why the "I gotta be me" theme is so poorly received.

I figure if I had a hearing impaired person on the line, I'd make sure I was close enough to make physical contact if I needed to call an immediate ceasefire. I don't know how I could be assured of communicating the message any other way.

As Sam points out just going through the motions isn't enough. When a range is declared cold, the R/O has to be sure it's cold.


And it's why those who think they know better, or think they're so special that they can be allowed to slide on that rule, really bother me.

I don't much like working from cold ranges either. But when I'm shooting a cold range match, I manage to suck it up and conform with it.

If I can do it then so can you.

 

[jcwit]

Regardless of what's being said. Way highroad. Definitely not an ad hominem.

I posted my opinion, take it however you wish, furthermore I do not speak or read latin and do not care to learn, no more than I care to learn spanish.

What is so hard with obeying the basic rules and any other rules at whatever range one wishes to frequent. If one does not wish to obey the rules, start their own range and get a good insurance carrier.

With the lack of rules that some here wish to abide by the NRA Insurance program will not qualify.

 

[jcwit]

I figure if I had a hearing impaired person on the line, I'd make sure I was close enough to make physical contact if I needed to call an immediate ceasefire. I don't know how I could be assured of communicating the message any other way.

As Sam points out just going through the motions isn't enough. When a range is declared cold, the R/O has to be sure it's cold.

I'm a Certified NRA Range Officer and have worked as such at the regional Bullseye matches and the above is absolutely, positivity true.

 

[CapnMac]

This would make me very, very nervous. If I'm down range pasting targets, I can't see WHAT you're doing back 100-200 yds away.

Having made the hike out to 300, 400, and 600yard targets, I always appreciate having some one on the firing line to point out that the range is not "empty" (having heard over-the-adjacent-berm rounds one too many times.

Having some one I have a reasonable reason to trust on the line while I'm on a quarter-mile hike (only 400m/440yd) is also a good thing, to my thinking.

Now, the "why" of "why'n we haffa do wha' HE says" has always been very simple to me. It's like being around kids. Every thing you do, every action, is being set as an example, and compared to other examples.

Sure, there are plenty of us who can be trusted to run a rod and patch down the bore. But what of the person who wants to ram-rod their BP smoke pole? What of those with less experience who think your actions are the same as loading a tubular magazine on a .22; one with little or no bolt hold-open?

Sure, none of "us" would do that, we know what we are doing. However, there are always people with less experience watching. This, even when you are "alone" (as that is precisely when newbs will drive up to the line very quietly).

Like all neophytes, they will observe, and absorb, the actions, the habits of those around them. It behooves the rest of us, to practice our "know better" that others learn from that, and not from our less-better habits. It's not a terrible thing, either, for those of us of experience and knowledge, to be reminded of "better practices" too.

That, or maybe I've reached an age where I appreciate being reminded of the limits of my humility, and that they can be dressed up and the rocks whitewashed every so often.

 

[kd7nqb]

Ranges I use generally do the Range is Hot/ Range is cold thing. Only one of my 3 ranges I use requires an oreintation. I kinda wish they all would, except that one ranges charges for it which I think is dumb.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Like all neophytes, they will observe, and absorb, the actions, the habits of those around them. It behooves the rest of us, to practice our "know better" that others learn from that, and not from our less-better habits. It's not a terrible thing, either, for those of us of experience and knowledge, to be reminded of "better practices" too.

That, or maybe I've reached an age where I appreciate being reminded of the limits of my humility, and that they can be dressed up and the rocks whitewashed every so often.

Extremely well said.

 

[SeekHer]

I can remember being at Lejeune 20 years ago using hot/cold range lingo. Used it on the firing lines at the machinegun ranges. Used it over the radio to call the range status into HQ. The "ready on the right? Ready on the left? All ready . . . " commands were much more perfunctory rituals that we did during formal qualifications.

Hot and cold ranges was the lingo I saw used in the Fleet.

I have. I've been to one or two for-profit ranges, usually operated in conjunction with a retail gun shop, that only let you use ammo they sold you.

And Sig Academy went to totally lead-free ammo some years ago. When they were faced with the cost of cleaning their indoor range from lead dust contamination, they demolished it and built a new one. The cost of constructing a new range was less than the clean up of the existing one. They now prohibit anything but totally lead-free ammo in it.

What the military says and does is for the military to say and do and if it happens to make it into common English--like GPS, ATV, Snafu, M16/M4 etc. that's all fine and good...On public ranges though it's a different matter.

In the Israeli army we called things differently from the Americans but that was semantics...Same as the Italian and the Germans etc. had different words for parts of a gun...Again, semantics--actually linguistics.

Follow the NRA Range Officer's manual or the ISU or similar organizations official rules and you can't go wrong.

What SIG is doing is just specifying what kind of bullet that can be used same as no FMJ or AP or tracer...Same as the government imposing steel shot for waterfowl, to reduce the amount of lead being shot...Same as some places won't allow blackpowder or pyrodex due to ventilation problems or such concerns.

I've never shot at a "for profit" range but I have tested out rifles and pistols at ones in store basements actually, I'd never heard the phrase until now--wait, actually that's not quite true; I have shot at ranges where they have requested you use their ammo (again an insurance and backstop thing) or have a "chrony" print out of the load you're using...Usually just by describing the load they can get an idea of what the end pressure would be like and if you "qualify", then you'd be allowed to shoot otherwise you'd have to buy their ammo...That's as close as I've ever gotten to one.

BUT there is a way around that; bring something they don't carry like a .225 Win or .224 Weatherby or .218 Bee or .219 Zipper which I do have and do shoot...Stuff like 10mm, .41 Rem mag, 5.7x28mm FN, .327 Federal aren't that common at major stores or they have a limited selection available since they're such slow movers...You can also demand certain brands or specific loads...I've never shot at one and if I'd ever encounter one they better have what I'm shooting (doubtful since it's 95% reloads and/or long obsolete cartridges) or they can go to Hell in a handbasket.

I know of many clubs, usually in Germany, that require you to order your ammo through them but that's so they can get a much better price for you and still make something for the club's coffers...Every March we order a pallet or two of trap/skeet loads--and a few cases of hunting ones--from our local Gun Country Club for their biannual cartridge order (Spring and Fall) which usually amounts to 1,200+ cases...The club will keep 400 or so for teaching and rentals and the rest is divided amongst the members...It's much cheaper and less time consuming to do it this way then reloading and I still don't have a set-up for 28 bore or .410 gauge but I will eventually.

 

[BullfrogKen]

What the military says and does is for the military to say and do and if it happens to make it into common English--like GPS, ATV, Snafu, M16/M4 etc. that's all fine and good...On public ranges though it's a different matter.

Actually from what I've seen in the world of shooting its the other way 'round.


The institutional knowledge of the military is young. Very young. 30 years is a long career in the military, and few make it that far. Most do one enlistment or two and they're out.


I've been shooting as a civilian for almost 20 years now. I've learned a hell of a lot more as a civilian than I did as a military man. Back when I was in we didn't even think about eye protection, and it was rare to see someone own a pair, let alone actually shoot using safety glasses.


There's a whole lot in the shooting world that the private sector develops first, and eventually . . . over a very long period of time . . . that gets considered, accepted, embraced, and finally institutionalized by the military.

 

[bigfatdave]

No idea.

The guys I know who took a class at Sig Academy weren't paying for it; their department or agency was.

Sounds like a good deal for the guys taking the class ... and the academy.
I've been building up ammunition when I can snag a good deal for years now, buying specialized ammo of no particular value elsewhere would grate on me unless it was priced similar to what I can get at the cheapo-mart, and imagine the outrage if the sooper-dooper no-lead loads don't function in someone's over-tuned race gun designed to run on their personal handloads?

(I don't own such guns or have a desire to own them, but I know that someone out there has a racegun tuned up to run on 228 grain .45acp in one brand of brass over an amazingly exact amount of one lot of one brand of powder, loaded only at the full moon on nights after but not before a rainstorm)

 

[BullfrogKen]

I've never shot at a "for profit" range but I have tested out rifles and pistols at ones in store basements actually, I'd never heard the phrase until now

Probably ought to clarify that for you.

I find that the ubiquitous "places where I shoot" usually falls into one of four categories:

1. True privately-owned land - as in this is my personal property; my family's; my buddy's farm . . . you get the picture
2. A privately-owned, but for-profit place to shoot. Like SigArms Academy, or a gun store with an adjacent, hourly-fee rental range. Basically someplace to shoot that funds a business, i.e. - pays someone's costs to run it, plus some profit.
3. Public land. This could be any sort of government-owned land that has a range, be it just a pile of dirt to fully-improved shooting stations. Generally opened to the "general public" with very few restrictions on who can actually use it. In my state, the PA Game Commission runs these. It's different all across the U.S.
4. Or a non-for-profit membership club or association that owns land, or simply a range, that grants dues-paying members of that association the right to shoot on it.

I've been to them all.

Each has their own unique rules. And their own reasons for what behavior they allow to occur on them.

You can't assume why someplace specifies lead-free ammunition. It could be like the indoor range at Sig Academy, and they don't want the cost of lead remediation. Or, it could be because the backstop they use is very thin, and they'll only allow frangible rounds on it to reduce damage to the plate.



Too many variables. But this is getting in the weeds.



I've found the command "the range is hot!" used nearly any place where people who don't know each other gather to shoot. In fact, I've thought back on it, and at Lejeune we had red range flags we'd hoist to the entrance of ranges we were on.

Red. Hot. = Put your eyes and ears on. Don't go downrange.

Cold. Clear. = OK, we're done shooting. Everyone stop fiddling with your guns now so we can walk downrange for some reason until we're hot again.

 

[SeekHer]

Actually from what I've seen in the world of shooting its the other way 'round.


The institutional knowledge of the military is young. Very young. 30 years is a long career in the military, and few make it that far. Most do one enlistment or two and they're out.


I've been shooting as a civilian for almost 20 years now. I've learned a hell of a lot more as a civilian than I did as a military man. Back when I was in we didn't even think about eye protection, and it was rare to see someone own a pair, let alone actually shoot using safety glasses.


There's a whole lot in the shooting world that the private sector develops first, and eventually . . . over a very long period of time . . . that gets considered, accepted, embraced, and finally institutionalized by the military.

Yes, but I responded to a military man (yourself) stating his RO used hot/cold which is a US military phrase not an International one or a civilian one except for in the last 15, 20 years or so it started popping up BUT it still isn't used everywhere.

The cost of the tuition for the SIG Academy also includes the cost of all ammo; the same as lots of other training schools do...They do it for a number of reasons a) flying with 600 pistol and 500 rifle and 200 shotgun rounds is expensive excess baggage charges; b) they can get a bulk order price and makes it cheaper for the student; c) the course provides the firearms for them to train with; d) they are assured of a certain velocity or bullet weight etc. or e) in SIG's case, to meet a VERY specific metal content--According to their website, they will allow you to bring your own ammo, it just must meet their very strict standards!

Your statement was that you heard of places, "for profit", that didn't allow anything but their brand new ammo to be used--no reloads which I'd never heard of...I know that rental places require you to use their guns and ammo but then again not many people go into a rental range with boxes of ammo to try out...Sure, It's done, I've done it myself, as I wanted to try this hot load for a 9mm in a number of guns that I wanted to buy and couldn't decide on the make/model--I figured the one that handled the easiest with that load would be the one I'd buy but that seldom happens...but I've still not heard of a public range--whether you pay a per usage fee, a yearly fee, or it's free--where you bring your own firearms and ammunition disallowing your ammo reloads--excluding the aforementioned certain, specific, types of bullets for insurance, structural or environmental reasons...The rental ranges charge you for their employees wages by pricing their rentals and ammo high and by charging a membership fee and/or an expensive daily/hourly usage fee.

I belong to a Trap/Skeet, rifle, pistol, archery Country Club style range with gun store and full time gunsmith, shooting instructors, snack bar and beer/wine restaurant, club house w/lockers and showers et cetera, etc...It cost me $X.XX to join and costs me $X.XX per year family membership, $X.XX per year junior memberships (18-21 yrs old), $X.XX per month maintenance fee and $X.XX for each time I/we use the ranges--Just like a golfer's country club...What I pay per use is a lot cheaper then what Joe Public pays who comes by to sight in his hunting rifle or to shoot a round of clays...Courses of instruction are two tiered member and non, members get 20% off on store prices and can charge their restaurant and bar bills etc.

What we have done for 600 yard F-Class, 1K BR, 600, 800, 1k BPCR and HiPower silhouettes competitions is get a couple of teenagers using the clubs two ATVs to run out and change all the targets, for everyone, and each shooter slips them a few bucks per event--about $20 to $25 for a whole long weekend's competition...One of my daughters--couldn't shoot due to an injury--did it a couple of years ago and made $500+ for the weekend...Really big events we just get more ATVs and hire more teens.

 

[dirtykid]

1) No, my range is privately operated with a "caretaker" living on-site, we have old loader-tires piled between different ranges so effectively we have 6-seperate "areas". determining if the range is "hot or cold" is done by making eye-contact with other members and usually if they aren't dicks they will ask you if you need to go down-range,(sometimes you have to stand 15-feet away and burn a hole in the side of their head) before they do so.. it's all self-regulating
2) Yes, range rules and reg's are posted at every bench,every "lane",,, Ear and Eye protection required,pick up your own brass,your momma dont live here.
3) No, you pay the "caretaker" and walk down the hill to shoot,although He's a real nice guy and if you asked him he would give you a quick tour,and probaly offer to take your name for the newsletter.
I LIKE the idea of the lights, sometimes when im way-out at the 200-yard targets setting up and i see someone back at the bench arrive and start to un-case a rifle i get a little extra giddy-up to get the heck out of the way !!

 

[Ignition Override]

When firing stops at the private club here, you must remove ammo from your gun, put in a chamber flag, leave the gun on the bench if you don't want to go down range, then you stand behind the yellow safety line, where you can not reach it.
Everybody at this club tries to be cautious and conscientious.

Why not "Firing will stop", or "Firing can begin"?

What seems critical is to make eye contact with everybody when it begins or stops, and to be told that some guy is on his belly in a blindspot.

Despite the rules, this happened once: two or three of us stated and acknowledged that "the line is cold", put our rifles down, then began walking forward about thirty feet.
Suddenly, some guy yelled out "Hey-the range is hot!"

We never knew that he was there -on his stomach- out of sight, at the extreme left of the bench line.

 

[twofifty]

semantics can be important

^ quote: "Why not "Firing will stop", or "Firing can begin"?"

Because both these commands start with the same action word, which can lead to confusion if someone hears only the first word but the modulating words are masked by a sudden noise such as a gun shot, loud conversation, noisy truck rumbling by...

In the above noisy situations, all that could be heard is "Firing". Some on the line may think a ceasefire is called. Others may continue firing, or worse resume firing while folk are heading downrange. Sometimes semantics have importance.

I would prefer commands such as -and this is just one example:

"Ceasefire-ceasefire" and/or "Range is cold", followed by 'clear firearms'...'step back of the line'...'go forward to set targets' or whatever combination is suitable to your particular range environment on that particular day.

and

"Range is going Hot" and/or "Resume firing". (yes, I know, the word range appears at the beginning of both commands, but the word 'range' has no hot/cold significance of its own so there is no chance of miscommunication.)

Analogy: Think of complicated control panels, like on a jetliner or in a nuclear station. The power on and power off controls are not beside each other, they are not the same shape, nor are they the same color. Visual semantics can be important.

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Lots of good suggestions in the thread. I like the idea of each person doing their own visual check of the line and making eye contact, before going forward or resuming fire. Nice when everyone is on the same page.

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At the local 500 meter metallic silhouette range, the practice when going downrange to set steel is to flip up a large "range is closed" sign that all can see from the firing line. This is not done during a formal match as for those the line is supervised at all times and not everyone goes forward. But it definitely is the thing to do is you are by yourself or if everyone goes forward. 500M is too loooong away to see that someone is bent over picking up a ram.