Cold range vs. Hot range

[Trent]

OK.. so here's the scenario.

I'm on the board of directors at our local gun club (I'm secretary). The board will be hearing arguments next month on whether to be a hot range or cold range; they're worried that new concealed carry holders will be unsafe and have accidents.

I'll be giving my two cents next month at the board meeting. I'm an NRA Certified Chief Range Safety officer but do not hold (as of yet) any official functions in the club with this rating. I will mention I have that rating, but it gives me no actual authority whatsoever to set policy at our club.

I would (obviously) prefer that the range is a "hot range", as I view holstered guns as safe guns.

Complicating factors:

One board member brought up that people should not be practicing drawing from a holster on the pistol range, period.

Same board member brought up that NO loaded firearms should be present on the range, period, that people should unload and bring them in a case to the range.

Another issue; dealing with concealed carry while doing organized shooting events (sporting clays, trap, steel on steel matches, silhouette rifle matches, and rimfire/centerfire rifle matches including NRA High Power & NRA Smallbore.)

Personally I view a holstered gun as a safe gun. I also feel that in order to practice and gain proficiency with a handgun, drawing from a holster (concealed or otherwise) is a vital part of that training and practice. I am "pro hot range".

But I have a feeling I am in the minority on the board, and want to present a compelling argument next month. So I am soliciting feedback.

I didn't know what forum to post this in so I stuck it in General; if there is another more appropriate ... mods please move as necessary.

Thanks for any input!

EDIT:

Defining the terms better as the board was arguing them.

"Hot Range" = a concealed carry holder can carry a loaded, concealed firearm on his person while on the property. During cease fires sidearms can be holstered but no longer handled.

"Cold Range", *NO* guns may be loaded on the property until at the firing line, after the range is declared hot. Guns must be unloaded BEFORE entering the range property (you must travel to the range unarmed, or disarm in your vehicle prior to entering range property). When the range is declared cold all firearms are benched and no touching is allowed. Concealed carry holders would need to exit the property - completely - before loading their sidearms and re-arming themselves.

Also editing to add the range layout, as it's relevant (indoor vs. outdoor/etc).

The range is an outdoor shooting range with two separate pistol ranges, a separate rifle range, a trap/skeet range, a silhouette range, and 4 shooting bays for steel on steel shooting.

Due to the low membership numbers, and large range, 99% of the time members are there, they are alone or in pairs (bring a guest, family member, etc).

There is no on-duty RSO at any time except during the NRA sanctioned shooting events which I run once per month - I have three RSO's at those events (counting me.) Skeet / trap don't use an RSO, steel on steel is informal with no RSO's, silhouette has no RSO's, etc.

Because the club is out in the boonies, and people are often there alone, there is always the concern of robbery, accidents, etc. If someone suffered a serious accident, and they were alone, it wouldn't end well as there is very rarely anyone else at the range.

This being said, posted rules doesn't mean members will OBEY them as they most often there alone, with no supervision. So banning it is not guaranteed to cut down on accidents.

Another tidbit; members have been using the range for 30 years with no prohibition on drawing and shooting from a holster, with zero accidents. (A record we'd like to retain, obviously)

 

[Trent]

Also if anyone has information (links ot articles, etc) about people robbed or killed AT gun ranges (thieves after firearms) please post them. I remember reading a couple (one in Florida?) but I can't find the dang things now.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

My views are the same as yours.

 

[highorder]

I'm also pro-hot range.

 

[pintler]

Drawing and reholstering are one of the more common times for accidents. A lot of people don't realize there is some technique involved, and people try to speed up too fast. I'm fortunate to be able to do it at some local ranges, but I can understand the concern.

Some options are:
1) 'you can carry, but if it arrives loaded in your holster, it stays in your holster' (unless, obviously, a self defense situation arises). That lets people carry to/from without fumbling with the gun in their car just outside the range gate.
2)'you can carry, and shoot what you carry, but you may only unholster once, to the bench, at the beginning of your visit, and reholster once at the end of your visit'. That has the advantages of #1 but you don't need a spare gun to carry to/from.

Again, I like to be able to shoot from the holster, but I do get the concern. One can practice the draw at home unloaded, or for many guns get a replica airsoft and practice with that. It's not ideal, but better than nothing.

 

[Warp]

I am pro-allowing holstered and loaded handguns on the range.

A holstered handgun is safe.

When people go downrange, nobody touches a gun. Holstered handguns stay in the holster and are not handled.

Working from the holster is something people need to be able to do in order to prepare themselves for the real world.

I am pro-concealed (or open) carry when working or participating in other matches as well.

I'm tired of this irony where the most common reason I need to disarm, is because I went to a gun shop, gun store, or gun range. I mean...really?

We think we can win discussions and arguments with the antis, but we don't even trust ourselves with guns? Give me a break.



My local state run range allows carrying a holstered pistol and allows working from the holster. It works.

My local indoor range is a hot range in the truest sense, and allows working from the holster. It works.


If people are unsafe, they are almost surely violating another rule in the process. And are there no range safety officers present or reachable?


And why the heck should I be forced to leave my handgun sitting on the bench when I walk downrange, when it can be in my holster? It, and everybody present, are safer with my handgun in my holster than sitting 50 yards away from me on the bench unattended.



HOT RANGE

 

[IlikeSA]

The local range near me allows one to "qualify" to carry and draw from a holster. That may be an option as well. This range is the Centennial Gun Club in Colorado.

 

[Havok7416]

I agree with the concept of a hot range, but a range is only as safe as its least proficient member. People discharge weapons all the time while attempting to draw or holster their gun all the time. At the range I now frequent, I am one of only a few that are there with any regularity. Many shooters arrive who clearly know very little at best, but being as it's a state-run range, there's not a ton of supervision. With that in mind, I tend to like the idea of keeping a holstered weapon holstered. I understand the need to practice drawing and holstering, but the general carrying public probably needs to practice at home quite a bit more than they do - especially in Illinois, where CCW is new.

So, to sum that up, I think you should make the argument for allowing permit holders to carry their guns and if the range has room, perhaps make an area where they can safely practice drawing and shooting.

Unless your range has metal detectors or searches, what's to stop members there from carrying and not telling anyone? It's not like you can post a "NO GUNS" sign at the range, otherwise it wouldn't be a range!

Hopefully this helps.

 

[Warp]

Unless your range has metal detectors or searches, what's to stop members there from carrying and not telling anyone? It's not like you can post a "NO GUNS" sign at the range, otherwise it wouldn't be a range!

It can be rather difficult to shoot prone and/or seated without printing.

 

[Havok7416]

True, although it certainly depends on what clothing you are wearing around the gun. I'm sure there's a way to hide the gun better, but I would have to think it through.

 

[Legionnaire]

I have been on both hot and cold ranges. I prefer hot.

 

[taliv]

i think you probably should define the terms so everyone is speaking the same language.

most "cold ranges" still allow drawing from holster, etc. IPSC/IDPA/3gun etc competitions are ALL run as "cold ranges".

That said, I think a club running a 'hot' range is a phenomenally bad idea. Galactically bad.

 

[thefish]

Is the range big enough to have the pistol section broken into two areas? One for visitors who want to practice drawing, and one cold area? Or alternating days for drawing?

The range I frequent is a public, mostly unsupervised, free range. So it's kind of a free for all, but I sure do appreciate the ability to practice drawing from concealment with live rounds. That being said, last summer i heard there was a person who shot them self in the leg doing just that.

One thing to possibly bring up is that while practicing drawing from a holster does add another level of possibility of accident, I would think that someone who carries a ccw and therefore wants to practice drawing, most likely (assumption here) has gone through a class explaining the steps involved, was recommended to practice at home with no ammo until they feel comfortable doing it with live rounds, and is serious enough about it to want to practice.

I've been swept numerous times by newbies at the range. Not drawing. Just poor gun handling and judgement. I'm more concerned about that these days than an ad/nd from someone practicing a draw.

 

[Jesse H]

I'm pro hot range, but seeing all the bullet holes in the shooting benches, berms and target stands, I understand why some ranges keep them cold. I'm at the point now I refuse to go to the range during the weekend when it's busy. I'm fortunate enough where most of my shooting is with others who I know and work with.

 

[earplug]

Hot ranges are safe due to the knowledge that loaded firearms are present. Cold ranges invite the stupid to utter the classic " I didn't know it was loaded"
All thats needed is the understanding that when the range is cold, firearms stay holstered, benched or otherwise untouched while people are down range etc.
I like my local club rule that firearms stay bagged, cased or holstered while behind the firing line and to and from their cars etc.
Some holsters invite problems with sweeping your self or others on the draw. Its not the holster or method, its the shooters responsibility to control the muzzle.
Just as in USPSA or ICORE break a safety rule and go home.

 

[taliv]

hot ranges are only safe around people that are reasonably well trained and you have no reason to expect that at all at a club or public range.

All thats needed is the understanding that when the range is cold, firearms stay holstered, benched or otherwise untouched while people are down range etc.

then it's not a 'hot' range. you are describing a 'cold range'. so I really don't get your first two sentences at all

 

[denton]

I'm a Range Officer at one of our local ranges.

Our policy is that shooters are not allowed to practice drawing from a holster. Drawing is a good opportunity for a negligent discharge. Someone with a holstered firearm can withdraw it and place it on the bench in front of him, and he's just like all the other shooters.

Open carry is not permitted.

Concealed carry is permitted, but firearms must remain concealed.

20+ years, and no problems with ND from these sources, except for police officers who use the range during the other half of the week.

 

[Trent]

hot ranges are only safe around people that are reasonably well trained and you have no reason to expect that at all at a club or public range.

Taliv, everyone who has a concealed carry permit here has (recently) gone through 8 or 16 hours of training which included 4 hours of live fire instruction. (8 hours means they had prior training credit; out of state CCW, military, law enforcement, etc).

So everyone who is carrying concealed SHOULD have a solid idea of how to do so safely. (If not, they shouldn't be carrying a gun a gun around.)

Our range is private and capped at 250 members. Members are responsible for any guests they bring - if guests break the rules the member gets expelled.

 

[Trent]

Defining the terms better as the board was arguing them. (Also editing OP)

By "Hot Range" I mean a concealed carry holder can carry a loaded, concealed firearm on his person while on the property. During cease fires sidearms can be holstered but no longer handled.

By "Cold Range", *NO* guns may be loaded on the property until at the firing line after the range is declared hot. When the range is declared cold all firearms are benched and no touching is allowed. Concealed carry holders would need to exit the property - completely - before loading their sidearms and re-arming themselves.

 

[Trent]

Also, I appreciate the feedback so far. There are definite pro's and con's to this decision. I'm initially wanting the ability to carry concealed while at the range (working or shooting). With it being out in the middle of nowhere with police response time being >20 minutes... I don't like locking up the gate at night when I leave without a loaded sidearm.

(Granted if I'm the only one there and I'm locking up .. who would know or care? But still.. rules are rules.)

As far as safety I'm on the fence about it. I could see banning drawing & firing from small of back holsters, shoulder holsters, etc, due to muzzle sweep. But strong side holsters on the hip? Or concealed holsters & guns which are left alone while you shoot other firearms? I don't see the point in banning that.

The point of a shooting range is to have a place to practice and improve shooting skills.

Banning carrying for self-defense just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[taliv]

Taliv, everyone who has a concealed carry permit here has (recently) gone through 8 or 16 hours of training which included 4 hours of live fire instruction. (8 hours means they had prior training credit; out of state CCW, military, law enforcement, etc).

So everyone who is carrying concealed SHOULD have a solid idea of how to do so safely. (If not, they shouldn't be carrying a gun a gun around.)

i wouldn't for one instant assume a mil/leo was capable of safely handling firearms on a hot range. the vast majority of them have never been exposed to a hot range. CCW classes as we both know are mostly about the law, and don't really prepare people for shooting. i'm a little surprised you would say that.

my advice is to narrowly pick your battles with the board. what's important is members' ability to practice practical self defense and sporting skills. (after all, you can't shoot an IDPA match if you don't draw from holster, and preventing people from practicing that in a self-paced stress free environment so the first time they do it is on the clock with a crowd watching is just insanely stupid. )

what is much less important is whether the range is 'hot' or 'cold'. and that's a battle you will have difficulty winning. heck, i'd vote against it

 

[Twiki357]

I’ll second pintler in post #5.
I frequent three ranges; a small commercial, a club, and a large state operated range. All permit a carry weapon to be carried (open or concealed) but it stays in the holster or it stays on the table.

As much as I would like to be able to practice drawing and firing live, there are just to many inexperienced shooters (Think total jerks) for live drawing and firing at a public range. It’s just too high risk.

 

[taliv]

fwiw, all the ranges around me allow drawing from holster, including a commercial range and a large club with 1500 members. but none are "hot".

 

[hartcreek]

Because of the ranges location and the typical lack of police response the range needs to be hot. I would not join a cold range out in the boonies. 250 members is small so instead of leaving it to the board put it to the members is they want their safety endangered out in the boonies by being naked until they drive through the gate.

 

[Trent]

i wouldn't for one instant assume a mil/leo was capable of safely handling firearms on a hot range. the vast majority of them have never been exposed to a hot range. CCW classes as we both know are mostly about the law, and don't really prepare people for shooting. i'm a little surprised you would say that.

We're only talking about keeping personal sidearms on the person; the rifle range and shotgun ranges are still cold (excepting a concealed sidearm, which should remain holstered). No one will be handling loaded guns during a cease fire when people are going downrange - that's a hard and fast rule, period.

On the pistol range, again, guns would be unloaded and on the table actions open before people go down range, OR holstered (and not handled).

Not sure if there is a disconnect on what I mean by "hot range" here vs. what you are thinking; thought I cleared that up. But there shouldn't be any safety issues with guns being holstered (or on a table, actions open, with no gun handling) during cease fires and target changes. At least none that I can think of.

my advice is to narrowly pick your battles with the board. what's important is members' ability to practice practical self defense and sporting skills. (after all, you can't shoot an IDPA match if you don't draw from holster, and preventing people from practicing that in a self-paced stress free environment so the first time they do it is on the clock with a crowd watching is just insanely stupid. )

This would be banned - holstered sidearms would be banned altogether under this, as would practicing from a holster (regardless of type).

They're already ultra conservative as it is. Instead of running steel-on-steel from a holster, they start at low ready.