Cold range vs. Hot range

[Trent]

Because of the ranges location and the typical lack of police response the range needs to be hot. I would not join a cold range out in the boonies. 250 members is small so instead of leaving it to the board put it to the members is they want their safety endangered out in the boonies by being naked until they drive through the gate.

When I'm the only one out there, on the rifle range, I'll take my rifle with me to change targets. I don't want to be 300 yards away from my rifle if someone pulls in. The firing line is right by the gate. The targets are not.

It's nerve wracking to be out there alone, with everyone within 5+ miles knowing that someone is shooting a high powered rifle. The silence between strings is deafening; anyone with half a brain would know you are changing targets.

I've done a lot of googling tonight on "shooting range robbery" and man.. wow. Some of the stories I've read are chilling. Criminals can be hard core.

Of course, so are the stories of accidental / negligent shootings.

 

[Old Dog]

Purely from a rights perspective, I'd be in favor of the hot range.

However, purely from the perspective of one who shoots at no less than three commercial indoor ranges and four gun clubs in my area ... I'm gonna have to lean toward a cold range with no drawing from the holster BUT would allow holstered carry of concealed handguns which would not be touched while on the firing line. There are just too many knuckleheads out there, and too many folks who don't know how much they don't know ...

Now, a membership-only club that would allow vetted members (those who've undergone some decent training) to use one range (with only likewise trained members) during clearly delineated hours to perform drills that incorporate drawing from the holster would be okay.

But allowing every guest or untrained members the privilege of manipulating loaded handguns from their holsters would be of great concern for me. I get worried when I see some of our line officers (and even tac team guys) doing drills, and I know how much training they've had ...

 

[herrwalther]

I have been to both types of ranges. I went to a range recently to qualify for a job position where a firearm was required. I put on the duty belt right over my concealed firearm. After the course was done, I fired off a few magazines from my carry weapon with instructor permission, just because.

Another range I went to years back didn't allow any firearms, minus what you planned to shoot in the booth, to be present. I heard from a friend of mine they started patting down customers looking for concealed weapons or non permitted ammo (steel core etc). Didn't have anything else other than his word, but I don't visit ranges like this. I would rather get rusty than deal with ranges that I don't like.

 

[oneounceload]

Another tidbit; members have been using the range for 30 years with no prohibition on drawing and shooting from a holster, with zero accidents. (A record we'd like to retain, obviously)

Then why the concern now?

 

[Warp]

Then why the concern now?

We are our own worse enemy.

And we seem to like having to disarm and follow super strict lowest common denominator rules while at gun stores or gun ranges or gun events.

I don't understand it either.

And I have been going to ranges, public, indoors and out, that allow working from the holster, for years.

 

[packpike]

I’ll second pintler in post #5.
I frequent three ranges; a small commercial, a club, and a large state operated range. All permit a carry weapon to be carried (open or concealed) but it stays in the holster or it stays on the table.

As much as I would like to be able to practice drawing and firing live, there are just to many inexperienced shooters (Think total jerks) for live drawing and firing at a public range. It’s just too high risk.

I agree with this concept. Not being able to carry my concealed weapon to a shooting range just seems bizarre (agree with the comment that 'it's hard to argue with the antis if we can't even trust ourselves'). That being said, I don't want the people around me practicing from the draw. I see way too many crazy things at the range(s) that I frequent already. The range, IMO, is to be used to throw lead at a target. You can practice drawing and holstering at home with an unloaded gun. You can't practice shooting at home.

When the range goes 'cold' that means that you don't touch your gun(s). Holstered or on a bench is fine, just keep your hands off of them.

In SC we actually have to shoot from the draw in our CWP qualifier, but it's usually done under close RO supervision and it's done really slowly. The RO pointed out the holes in the floor and lane dividers before we started!

 

[Frosty Dave]

This was a robbery at what I called my home range up until then:

http://www.newson6.com/story/16525785/wagoner-man-shot-on-thanksgiving-relives-incident

The range is also in a rural area, but across the road from a county facility. The benches are ~100 yards off the road through scrub brush.

 

[Warp]

I agree with this concept. Not being able to carry my concealed weapon to a shooting range just seems bizarre (agree with the comment that 'it's hard to argue with the antis if we can't even trust ourselves'). That being said, I don't want the people around me practicing from the draw. I see way too many crazy things at the range(s) that I frequent already. The range, IMO, is to be used to throw lead at a target. You can practice drawing and holstering at home with an unloaded gun. You can't practice shooting at home.

You can practice shooting at home. It's called dry firing. And it is just as effective of shooting practice as drawing an empty gun is practice for drawing and firing.

I very much like to do things in a quantitative manner. I like to get actual feedback to what I am doing, so I can track progress, or lack thereof, by comparing with myself...and also compare against other people/standards.

I use a shot timer to put the draw/fire on the clock when I practice at the range. Are you telling me there is no benefit to that because I can draw and point an unloaded gun at home?

In SC we actually have to shoot from the draw in our CWP qualifier, but it's usually done under close RO supervision and it's done really slowly. The RO pointed out the holes in the floor and land dividers before we started!

You know, people put many holes in floors, dividers, ceilings, etc, without a holster being involved...I guarantee that you could go to a long-established well used range that has NEVER allowed shooting from the holster, and guess what...there will be holes in those locations.

 

[mbopp]

Our club runs a cold range. You can carry from your vehicle to the range entrance where there is a partial enclosure with 6" sand-filled walls. Unload there, secure your firearm, and procede to the range. Single target, no drawing from the holster.
Now, we also have a separate Action Range that requires another club certification to use. You can shoot up to 3 targets and practice drawing, rapid fire, and reloading. Shooters like it for USPSA / IDPA practice.

 

[Drail]

As a former NRA Instructor I would have to say that I prefer hot range rules - IF all of the shooters are experienced. With "new" shooters it can be a serious problem. They don't understand why some things they are doing are dangerous. They need a lot more supervision until they understand why.

 

[packpike]

Warp

Dry firing is a very helpful tool and I do it often, but it's not a substitute for follow-up shooting after the 'bang'. Dry firing will not and cannot be a substitute for that. Drawing is different. The 'bang' has no impact on how fast you drew your gun because it happens after, not before/during the draw. I agree that it's nice to prove the concept that you've tested in your at-home practicing, but if your practice process is sound then drawing and firing an actual round will be no different than what you've practiced. There are also dry fire laser systems that you can use at home if you really wanted to get to that level, that have timing capabilities. Here again, all I'm saying is that you have a 100% home alternative for practicing your draw whereas for live firing the at home alternative is maybe 80%.

On your 2nd critique of my post, I agree that holes at ranges come from all types of situations. However, if you simply lay an unloaded gun on the bench, pick it up and shoot it, put it back down, and then pack it away when you're done, the chances of adding to those holes is very minimal. As was stated by others in this conversation, holstering/unholstering is one of the most common culprits for ND/AD's (whatever you want to call them).

The point is this, you may be a very disciplined, intelligent human being that can practice drawing and holstering with a live gun at a range and never have an accident, but based on what a lot of us see at ranges you are unfortunately in the minority. I don't see an issue with restricting drawing/holstering practice to either a special area, qualification, etc. That however should have nothing to do with restricting someone from carrying a concealed weapon.

 

[Warp]

Dry firing is a very helpful tool and I do it often, but it's not a substitute for follow-up shooting after the 'bang'.

I agree.

And drawing an unloaded gun at home is not a substitute for drawing and firing, with feedback on the target showing where your round(s) actually went, and feedback from the shot timer telling you exactly how long you took.

Drawing is different. The 'bang' has no impact on how fast you drew your gun because it happens after, not before/during the draw. I agree that it's nice to prove the concept that you've tested in your at-home practicing, but if your practice process is sound then drawing and firing an actual round will be no different than what you've practiced.

Firing a live round is absolutely different than dry firing. Even if it's the last thing that happens in the string of action. And how do you know where your round "went", for sure, dry firing? Sure, you can call your shot, but it's better to actually have the shot go somewhere and see where that is.

I also don't know of an easy or convenient way to put it on the clock when dry firing at home.

There are also dry fire laser systems that you can use at home if you really wanted to get to that level, that have timing capabilities. Here again, all I'm saying is that you have a 100% home alternative for practicing your draw whereas for live firing the at home alternative is maybe 80%.

What do those cost? How do they work? Do they work with all of my guns and my holsters the way I have them set up? Links?

The point is this, you may be a very disciplined, intelligent human being that can practice drawing and holstering with a live gun at a range and never have an accident, but based on what a lot of us see at ranges you are unfortunately in the minority. I don't see an issue with restricting drawing/holstering practice to either a special section, qualification, etc. That however should have nothing to do with restricting someone from carrying a concealed weapon.

How much time have you spent at public ranges that allows working from the holster?

Because based on my real world experience spending time at ranges that allow working out of the holster, it works.


In the end I worry far more about being muzzle swept by people doing magazine changes (try not to stand to people's support side...try to take stalls on the right hand side)...by people who think they need to hold the gun horizontally in front of them in order to get a good look at it...by people who pull their rifle out of the case behind the line and sweep every person there with it while they set it on the bench...by the people who touch their rifle as it sits on the bench pointed downrange while I am downrange...

I don't think I have ever once witnessed working from the holster result in another range goer being put in jeopardy as a result of the holster work

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Ours is technically a cold range but I've never heard of it being questioned/enforced.
And they make an exception for concealed weapons.

 

[Tirod]

It's really not about the politics, it's about the use of a remote rural range, and enforcement of the rules.

Leaving a gun on a bench while 300 yards away IS a problem. Anyone can and does pull in to take advantage of the situation. Thieves are getting bolder, a drive thru gun snatch is probably going to happen in the future. I have never left my firearm at rest in the shooting lane while putting up a target save in one specific circumstance, a range on an Army installation. There, it's organized, and yes, the lowest common denominator is the guideline. Oh well.

Secondly, when you conceal carry, the entire world is a hot range. That exists right up to the gate, and there is no reason to believe it stops there. Attempting to impose an artificial rule that inside the gate you can't carry is ludicrous.

Can accidents happen, yes. Do gun owners shoot the john, TV, or their bed mishandling firearms, the internet is full of it. We haven't accepted that the entire world be a cold range and lock up our firearms, have we? If you can't carry loaded on a range, it's contrary to the entire point of the 2A.

Since the club simply can't prohibit and prevent members from carrying during the week, if there is a concern over safety, then conduct that portion of firearms handling at one specific pistol range under your purvey. Otherwise, attempting to regulate behavior when there is no possible way to enforce it is only going to diminish the credibility of the club and make those decision makers who pass it look bad. It's like having speed limit signs on a stretch of road with no enforcement - soccer moms and teens alike laugh because there are no cops or radar. It just plays up making a feel good rule.

There is also the follow on responsibility - it might be better to step down as RSO if this passes. Once you present your view and explain it, a contrary decision by the members needs to consider the unintended consequence of not having an RSO at all. If they think they know better, then let them deal with finding another. Deliberately choosing to ignore the counsel of the subject matter expert should have consequences.

If that sounds too much, the situation I deal with daily is having the general public ask questions about diagnosing their automotive ills, then cutting me off in mid sentence because the explanation is over their head. So, the customer always being right, that's all they get - a smile and friendly acquiescence. They just shot themselves in the foot, who am I to argue with them? It's the same thing here, they are asking for a learned opinion, outright rejection of the answer should net the same - no further involvement. That road is their's to choose, and it's one fraught with the lessons you learned thru a proper course of education. If they don't respect or acknowledge that, so be it. Shake the dust off your feet and move on.

Having to go thru that learning curve themselves will help educate them where ignorance once prevailed. After a few of those life experiences, they start to listen. And their imposition of a cold range isn't going to change the nature of any incident that may follow. Just kick back and be a user, not an enforcer of an unreasonable policy. You don't want to be asked why you weren't spending every free moment in the week out there trying to prevent the incident that could happen regardless. The unreasonableness of considering a cold range goes directly to having the logic processes that will blame you regardless and hold you responsible for any mishap.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Has anyone bothered to ask the ranges insurance company yet? Because they sure as heck will have an opinion about the issue. And depending on the financial obligations of that opinion, they may just have the most important voice in deciding the matter.

 

[packpike]

I agree.

And drawing an unloaded gun at home is not a substitute for drawing and firing, with feedback on the target showing where your round(s) actually went, and feedback from the shot timer telling you exactly how long you took.

We both agree that dry firing is not a 100% substitute for live firing (I stated that I don't believe that because you can't practice a follow-up shot on a gun that has no recoil). For the 1st shot training dry firing gets you close to a 100% substitute which is why a lot of people recommend that you do a lot of dry firing practice (cheap, easy, and can do it at home anytime) to improve your accuracy. Where we completely disagree is that I'm saying that you can practice drawing/dry firing at home for that same level of substitution because you're practicing the draw and 1st shot. With a laser system like the one I've linked below you could get to that 100% substitution level, but yes it would require an investment.

I think though that I'm having to go back and defend my statements on something that's not really my point. Read my posts as a whole, not a grouping of individual sentences and hopefully it will be clearer. I think it's beneficial to practice drawing/firing/holstering, but if you didn't have the option you could get to a higher level of substitution at home compared to not being able to shoot at a range at all. My point is that I don't see restricting drawing/holstering at the 'general' range site as an issue. Just like the public range I go to does not allow skeet shooting at the 'general' range. These 2 activities, if done safely pose no real threat to others, but they require more discipline/knowledge/training than standard range activities. We're talking about a range with no RO's on site (as stated in the OP) to help a newbie with a 'more risky' activity. All that being said, I shoot at an open public range where other than skeet, nothing is technically restricted. We can shoot as fast or slow as we want to. There are no RO's. We have to 'police' ourselves. I try to help out those that I see doing unsafe activities. If I see someone practicing from the draw, I stay away as the activity itself has a higher chance of error than just pointing and shooting. Am I saying that there are no risks in general shooting, no. I have seen people sweep the line when reloading, during jams, pulling their rifles from the case, etc just as you mentioned. To stop those risks though would be to prohibit shooting completely. Re-read my first post, I was just agreeing with the concept of minimizing risk so that we don't completely loose the opportunity to shoot at all.


In case you thought I was just making these laser systems up and you asked for a link:
A lot of sites (even Optics Planet) are restricted here for me at work, but do a quick google search and you will find many of these systems available. Below is one that I was able to get to and verify the timing capabilities that it has.

http://www.laser-ammo.com/LaserPET-Electronic-Target.html

 

[wally]

Our club is a "cold range" but loaded CCW are allowed as long as they stay concealed.

We have three sided bays for draw and shoot practice, but all horizontal shoulder rigs are banned. If you draw and practice with your CCW it becomes like any other pistol and must remain unloaded with magazine out when not on the firing line.

I think this has worked out very well here.

 

[Sam1911]

If I was walking into this, Trent, I'd probably ask them to think hard about what service they're providing their members.

If they feel that these "new concealed carriers" are their members and part of the group that they (in a somewhat archaic term) are trying to "minister to," then they have a certain level of duty to provide those folks with an accommodating venue to practice the important new facet of their lives. (That is, working with a holstered gun, and draw & engage techniques.)

They can be, and IMHO, SHOULD be a key part of the good fight, here. Promoting safe and responsible carry. Not giving credence to the idea that it is a dangerous practice that they can't countenance on their property ... a SHOOTING range of all places.



...

Now, there are detail of right practices that need to be worked out. Look to how IDPA/USPSA handle what they call cold ranges for some ideas.

 

[Ryanxia]

What's the country coming to when people are scared to trust other people with a loaded gun at a gun range?

My range (private) has no rules aside from the safety rules, don't point a loaded gun, be sure of your target, etc. and we have no problem. We don't have range safety officers, we don't have 3 second rules, we shoot full autos (legally), use tannerite, draw loaded guns from holsters and are usually all carrying a loaded gun at all times. Must be a miracle I'm still here..

I say don't impose crazy rules because of what someone might do. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

My range (private) has no rules aside from the safety rules, don't point a loaded gun, be sure of your target, etc. and we have no problem. We don't have range safety officers, we don't have 3 second rules, we shoot full autos (legally), use tannerite, draw loaded guns from holsters and are usually all carrying a loaded gun at all times. Must be a miracle I'm still here..

I say don't impose crazy rules because of what someone might do. Just my 2 cents.

What does your insurance company and lawyer say about your complete and total lack of formalized SOP?

 

[Tirod]

I understand things can happen, but the range mentality that says you can't use any certain piece of equipment legal on the street because it might be "unsafe" is overdoing it.

The specific issue the rules makers have is that there will be a negligent discharge. Worse, that a shooter in the adjacent lane will be hit. Worst, they die. Liability raises it's ugly head.

Aside from someone having their finger on the trigger when they shouldn't, they are deliberately impeding the practice and use of devices that may be better suited in some circumstances or individuals. Nobody has the authority to decide for you if a shoulder holster is better or not. Nobody can tell you whether an IWB clip for your CCW is too little holster for carry.

I understand neither may be suitable for a square range where a lot of practice might be ongoing - so, offer a one lane box. Any ND in that circumstance is on the shooter, with no inadvertent victims.

It also goes to the general handgun shooting community not getting it - your finger should not be anywhere near the trigger during the draw whatsoever. And, there is no such thing as a fast reholster. If you were in danger, leave it out.

This is where range competition rules are running the show, not CCW. When you have a hundred shooters on the lines, and a lot of it, things are handled in a way to make it safer, all due to ongoing experiences because less didn't work so well. BUT - CCW IS NOT SQUARE RANGE SHOOTING. It's tactical 360 degree carry in a hot range that can develop within a few seconds notice. And there will be innocent citizens downrange, holsters may or may not even be used, and the other participant could often care less about the rules of safety. They could be looking to kill someone just for street credibility.

Under those conditions, competition square range rules may not apply well at all. And those who practice with them only reinforce some habits that may increase their risk of survival - that's been a topic of some interest lately. The practices and habits they learn in competition putting the weapon back on safe and into a holster may well be the thing that gets them killed when another gangmember suddenly reveals themself.

Competition is nice, but range rules that only accommodate that exercise can and will reinforce habits that are dangerous in the tactical world. It's not a free fire zone for the concealed carrier, but he has to recognize it very well IS for his adversary. We deliberately limit our response, lets not make it worse by range rules that impede practicing the skills we need.

 

[taliv]

my NRA range insurance requires rules to be posted and requires RSOs, but doesn't say what the rules have to be or have any restrictions on activities like full auto, drawing from holster, etc.

 

[packpike]

What's the country coming to when people are scared to trust other people with a loaded gun at a gun range?

My range (private) has no rules aside from the safety rules, don't point a loaded gun, be sure of your target, etc. and we have no problem. We don't have range safety officers, we don't have 3 second rules, we shoot full autos (legally), use tannerite, draw loaded guns from holsters and are usually all carrying a loaded gun at all times. Must be a miracle I'm still here..

I say don't impose crazy rules because of what someone might do. Just my 2 cents.

To be honest I'm torn on this whole thing. When it comes to RKBA I agree that we can't regulate the many because of the few. When it comes to a range though is there a line? I too shoot all kinds of crazy guns (we shot full auto 50cal the other day) at our range. We shoot tannerite and other fun targets, and I will shoot at a fairly high rate of speed to practice my follow-up shooting (shooting steel so I get instant feedback) with both handguns and rifles. Where I have an issue is with an open range with no RO and the guns not being pointed downrange. I'm not comfortable with a range ninja running around, turning flips, etc so that he can 'practice' for the real world environment. Because while he's doing all of that the gun is pointed all over the place. My comfort level also decreases when someone that I don't personally know, is rapidly drawing their loaded gun shooting and then reholstering it. That being said within a few minutes I can tell if that person knows what they're doing or not and my comfort level adjusts accordingly. Hopefully the gun is following a straight line from vertically straight down to horizontal and back, but when their shirt gets in the way or the holster sticks that's when the direction changes. I'm just saying that for most of us on this forum this type of practice is not an issue, but for the public as a whole, shooting from the draw has a much higher risk of error than pointing and shooting. Here again, I'm not saying ban drawing/holstering completely, but accept the fact that it is in a different level of risk than standard bench shooting. I like the idea posted above of having a 3 sided bay for those that want to practice drawing. Maybe that's a good solution and I'm sure there are others.

 

[Ryanxia]

What does your insurance company and lawyer say about your complete and total lack of formalized SOP?

Never heard of an issue. Been this way for 50+ years. Pretty sure a good portion of ranges in my area are the same.

What's next? Requiring your gun to be bolted to a bench rest so you don't accidentally sweep anyone? It's amazing how we've gone from school shooting teams and hunting before/after to people being afraid of even being at the range.

I believe I read once that statistically you are more likely to be killed in a car accident going to/from the range than from a shooting accident while there.

 

[Sam1911]

What does your insurance company and lawyer say about your complete and total lack of formalized SOP?

Like taliv's experience, I'm unfamiliar with insurance that really gets into the nuts and bolts of how you do what you do at the range. Mention "cold range" and "hot range" to your insurance provider and you're likely to get a blank stare. Even trying to explain who can be loaded when and whether or not you can/can't have a gun holstered or loaded at different times is probably no concern of theirs.

They may indeed stipulate that you must HAVE safety rules, and post them. And they may or may not be impressed by you having RSOs when the range is open. (That one could go either way, though, positive or negative.)

But questions of may someone carry a gun on the property are highly unlikely to affect your insurance at all.

(Like some other types of businesses have found, though, "insurance rules" can be a very convenient scapegoat when you need one to excuse an unpopular or onerous rule.)