Cold range vs. Hot range

[Tirod]

I wouldn't be comfortable with someone practicing 360 degree hot range tactics when the line is expressly set up for precision or bench work.

I believe what we really have is too many precision shooting ranges that make no accommodation for practical shooting needs. There are ranges set up that do that - the military and tactical pistol shooters use them.

And, in that light, it is very relevant that the military does lose a soldier to a live fire incident every year in practicing CQB team tactics in a shoot house. The danger is very real.

If a range set up solely for precision bench shooting is getting an influx of tactical pistol shooters, then things need to adjust. This is the likely problem with some ranges - they simply aren't built to handle that kind of shooting. It doesn't much make a difference that it's an open range with no RSO - most share that situation every week day. It's the shooter attempting to practice something in an environment that doesn't support the event.

It makes just as much sense to practice dry firing in the checkout lane at WalMart. Of course people get concerned.

It happens at ranges, nonetheless, because we live in a land where we have the freedom to make inappropriate decisions. Posting your vacation plans on Facebook, getting a risque tattoo in a revealing area, or whatever, we see it happening all around us everyday. At my workplace, the four lane boulevard out front has a high rate of exhibitionist vehicular activity - and it's about the most densely packed in the city on a daily average. (I'm actually glad to be getting transferred away from it.)

People can and will make unintended errors, or even stupid decisions. Few come into this world with a total working knowledge of what they should or should not do, and far too many have a partial knowledge and then dictate to others limitations about what can be permitted.

When it comes down to range use, what needs to be seen is that a 400 yard firing line with benches and overhead cover stretching out past 30 lanes may not be appropriate for 15 pistol shooters who would prefer to practice draw and fire. That highlights the concept of what a range is - outdoors, we see it as predominantly a rifle facility, and those features don't work in the best interests of shooters practicing pistol. Or the rifle shooter in the next lane.

It may be necessary for the range members to acknowledge the two different and conflicting uses - and schedule them on alternate days on alternate weeks. Spread it around to fit anyone members work schedule. If there is a limitation in the facilities, then exclude the other kind of shooting on certain days and there will be nobody at cross purposes to inconvenience the other shooters - who well may be themselves later.

If nobody is willing to budge on how or when the range operates, then what you have are shooters who aren't willing to let others exercise their 2A rights. Good luck with that.

 

[buck460XVR]

i wouldn't for one instant assume a mil/leo was capable of safely handling firearms on a hot range. the vast majority of them have never been exposed to a hot range.

^^^ I gotta agree. In the small town I reside in the only officer ever wounded in a gunfight here, shot himself in the foot while attempting to draw is Glock.

That said, I think Trent's club, even tho he is not keen on their direction, is doing the right thing by considering their options. Keeping the range safe should be everyone's top priority, even if it means some folks need to refrain from some form of practice. Unlike the majority of us here, the members themselves know the layout of the range and the overall general skill level of it's members. To me this dictates part of their decision. Trent claims to take his rifle downrange with him when he shoots alone. I assume this is against the rule of leaving the gun on the bench? Does this also mean that since there are times when other shooters that are alone at the range could also break the "no drawing from a holster" rule with no repercussions? Does that also mean maybe someone alone, by themselves at the range, or shooting singly could maybe practice drawing under the new rules?

My experience is that most folks feel they are better than they are when it comes to handling firearms. My experience at the two small gun club ranges I use infrequently is that many folks drawing and shooting like they watch on the "Tactical T.V." shows are not the safest knife in the drawer. This is not just newbies with their first gun. These are folks that are attempting to imitate a drill, such as the "Bill Drill" that they saw last week on the Sportsman Channel. What makes it safe for others at those two ranges, is that they are the only ones doing it and they are in front of anyone else at the range. This is how those ranges handle it. A single shooter in a position where only the most freakish of accidents would mean anyone other than the shooter would be shot. This position is also outside the benches and the awnings and only feet from the berm.

 

[Sam1911]

...4 shooting bays for steel on steel shooting.

Some good points have been raised here about having the right space for the task.

I think one of the reasonable concessions to safety would be to say that drawing from a holster and other practical handgunning/fighting-with-a-gun skills are welcomed only in the 270-degree pits where there's a lot more containment of unfortunate muzzle discipline. Having someone trying to work on his El Prez times on the rifle line next to someone working up his 400-yds groundhog loads is annoying to absolutely everyone involved, and has potential for un-safe situations to arise.

Forcing everyone using the pits to work out of a case, and/or from "low ready" is silly beyond all reason.

Now, the issue of carry weapons (open or concealed) that remain in their holsters should be separate entirely, and set aside as a non-issue.

 

[john wall]

Speaking as one who has been RSO at high volume outdoor and indoor ranges, I go with a cold range.

You do not know the skill level of the fellow standing next to you.

I have had new shooters tell me during my safety brief to them that "We don't need that Gun Safety ******!" They got the long version. :banghead:

They wound up being ejected from the range for unsafe firearms handling (what a shock).

Clearing folks to draw and having a separate range area for this might work. I am among those who have seen the worst firearms handling by Armed Professionals.

The primary mission at a gun range is SAFETY. These days, one MUST gear to the least proficient, or most careless shooter on the range.

The hapless shooter who is unconsciously incompetent is the one you have to watch out for.

Sure, EVERYONE has the right to possess a firearm, but that does not mean they have the right to be an idiot with it in a public arena. I have lost four family members due to firearms misuse, by both criminal and incompetent use, and may be biased to responsible use. This happens when one is trained. The HCP class does NOT make one safe with firearms.

As far as carry arms, IF the person can resist the temptation to play "Show and Tell", this would be a non issue. My experience has been that an immature person cannot keep his carry arm holstered in a gun shop or gun range.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

my NRA range insurance requires rules to be posted and requires RSOs, but doesn't say what the rules have to be or have any restrictions on activities like full auto, drawing from holster, etc.

And in the event of a liability issue due to negligence, they won't pay a single dime. Which is why I asked if anyone had addressed the issue to a lawyer, because your insurance provider probably isn't going to tell you all the ways they are going to get out of paying. Never hurts to ask though. That's what your lawyer is for.

As for the RSOs. If they are NRA certified RSOs, they should know full well that everything done on the range needs to be fully vetted and detailed in a formalized SOP. That's because if something ever happens on the range, the first questions from the insurance company and opposing council will be 1) How was this allowed to happen 2) What was done in reaction to it and 3) Why was that action taken.

If they aren't NRA certified RSOs, hopefully they are certified by someone. If they are just guys who were appointed RSOs by fiat, the first questions form the insurance company and opposing council will be 1) what are this persons qualifications to be a RSO and 2) why did you think that was good enough?

I see this all the time with small ranges and clubs. Lawyers, insurance, SOP? Why would we need those things? Many people never conceptualize that they operate under a tremendous burden of liability and if they don't approach every single decision they make with liability mitigation in mind, and approaching the questions from the outlook of the worst possible outcome, they are risking losing everything.

So, the questions that need to be asked the lawyer and insurance provider are: 1) If a person was accidentally shot during a target changing period and it was revealed that the range allowed loaded firearms to be carried during that period, could it be considered negligence on the party of the range for having that policy, 2) will the insurance company require higher premiums for having such a policy that could increase risk and liability on the rank & 3) will the insurance company refuse a pay out if such a policy could be considered negligence.

FYI: The NRA Range Source Book directly advocates against ever having a loaded firearm at any point on the range except on the firing line during a hot range, so this shouldn't even be in consideration for anyone receiving NRA funding for their range or using NRA certified RSOs or CRSOs.

 

[ohbythebay]

Packpike...Thanks for the link...!!!

Awesome device..I just wish it came with the 9mm cartridge laser. Combined is going to be $200 ..yikes.

I also agree on your hot range take.

My range allows you to walk in CC and you can go to the lane that way OR you can have your gun cased and unpack.load there.

You can draw and fire but it is watched ALWAYS because as you point out, skill levels differ. I know I don't want to get shot by some newbie playing Wyatt Earp. Our range staff is always on duty - regular business hours - no off hours shooting (10am to 9pm)

And practicing at home is the next best thing....and the link you gave makes it really great...I may just indulge for my Glock as there are Tuesday night competitions at my range...would be great way for me to practice the right level of speed with accuracy

 

[Jeff H]

Trent, Although I would personally prefer a hot range, at our club of 2000+ members, I can certainly see the reason it is a cold range rules. We have plenty of bullet holes in areas that we aren't supposed to be shooting.

I just leave my carry gun in the car if I'm not shooting it. Safer to keep it holstered and loaded then to unload it when I get on the property.

Drawing from a holster: While generally not allowed, we do have several pistol pits specifically designed for USPSA and cowboy style shooting and drawing from the holster is permitted at those. After all, how can you host USPSA matches with a "no drawing from a holster" rule.

 

[Trent]

Whoa. This has been a lot of great(!!) reading so far. I'm digesting what has been written so far in this discussion and marking my place with this post.

One immediate takeaway from this, is regardless of the policy we end up with, would be to have a designated "concealed carry disarm/rearm" area if members wish to use their carry gun for live fire. (Similar to a USPSA "safe area"). That way regardless of the method of carry there is a safe area where they can disarm/rearm if they want to use their carry piece on the range for live fire practice. (obviously if you are alone on the range, it's a moot point.) Our range layout is such that finding an area for this shouldn't be an issue.

I'm mulling over some options on draw and fire practice. Our east pistol range has 270 degrees of safety via 20' berms. Our west pistol range only has 180 degrees of safety, with the main parking lot directly behind. Obviously one of those ranges is safer than the other range for practicing.

(For what it's worth, concealed carry instructors which use the range MUST use the 270 degree safety range for their classes, leaving the other range open for members to use. I am currently ALSO tasked with drawing up standardized rules for concealed carry instructors to follow for classes, as Secretary of the club, and as one of the three concealed carry instructors at the club, they tapped me for the task.)

I want to approach the rest of the executive board, not with an argument, next month, but with a fully drafted new set of range standard operating procedures. As a CRSO I've had some training on how to go about this task....

It will be much easier to present to the board as "here is a draft of our new safety protocol" vs. spending an hour in an heated argument, only to have the discussion tabled because of tempers on the split board.

This is a profound statement, and one that really struck me reading through the last two pages.

Secondly, when you conceal carry, the entire world is a hot range. That exists right up to the gate, and there is no reason to believe it stops there. Attempting to impose an artificial rule that inside the gate you can't carry is ludicrous.

One other option I have at my disposal, is having three board approved concealed carry instructors at the range, we could devise a system where the concealed carry instructors review a members skill level at free clinics, and PREPARE them for drawing live fire practice. Once they have been trained properly and vetted, and they can successfully demonstrate responsible firearms handling, then give them a special badge or something they can wear at the club, which approves them for draw practice on the east 270 degree range. At least then we know that those members have been approved for draw practice, know what equipment they can use, know what range it is allowed on, and they have been given basic fundamental insight to doing it safely (such as LOOKING when they reholster, to make sure there are no obstructions before blindly jamming the gun in.... keeping the finger indexed along the frame of the pistol until their sights are on target, etc.)

Anyway back to work for me. Just wanted to say "I'm still reading" so carry on.

 

[Old Dog]

i wouldn't for one instant assume a mil/leo was capable of safely handling firearms on a hot range. the vast majority of them have never been exposed to a hot range

I missed this pronouncement of taliv's when I perused this thread earlier. Military perhaps (though I was no stranger to USMC-ran hot ranges while I was on active duty), but I am not familiar with any law enforcement agencies that don't run hot ranges for training these days. Drawing from the holster while moving and shooting is commonplace now. Probably even Andy and Barney down in Mayberry are learning some new tactics ...

My earlier point was, I've seen what can happen on a hot range with experienced officers and military personnel -- I sure would NOT be running a gun club that allowed random guests and untrained members to draw loaded guns from the holster and shoot ... As others noted, perhaps vetted members during certain times with experienced supervision, but not as a rule, all the time.

 

[ATLDave]

You could adopt rules similar to the USPSA approach, which allows holstered unloaded guns at all times, but only holstered loaded guns when the range is live/hot. (Of course, in USPSA, there is at most one "hot" shooter at a time.)

This allows people to practice drawing and re-holstering (important skills), but it does not raise the risk that someone's gun will fall out and discharge when they go downrange to replace targets.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Warp]

You could adopt rules similar to the USPSA approach, which allows holstered unloaded guns at all times, but only holstered loaded guns when the range is live/hot. (Of course, in USPSA, there is at most one "hot" shooter at a time.)

This allows people to practice drawing and re-holstering (important skills), but it does not raise the risk that someone's gun will fall out and discharge when they go downrange to replace targets.

Just a suggestion.

uh...what?

How and why would this even be a concern?

 

[ATLDave]

People do all sorts of clumsy things when they're handling targets. Combine that with a not-securely-holstered gun, and you've got the makings of an accident.

Range hot? Holster and draw away. Range cold? Unload the gun and either bench it or put it in a holster.

 

[Ryanxia]

People do all sorts of clumsy things when they're handling targets. Combine that with a not-securely-holstered gun, and you've got the makings of an accident.

Range hot? Holster and draw away. Range cold? Unload the gun and either bench it or put it in a holster.

Does your gun fall out of its holster and discharge often in your daily activities?

It's been said many times at places like gun shows that it's far more dangerous to force someone to unholster their loaded firearm, handle it to unload it, rather than telling them to leave it where it is like in the other 23 hours a day of their lives.

 

[ATLDave]

No, it doesn't. But I'm talking about in the context of people repeatedly holstering and unholstering, perhaps with minimal skill. They may not get it in there cleanly every time.

And I have seen guns fall from holsters. Saw it at a USPSA match where someone carrying a target stand bumped the gun of another member out of its holster. Gun hit the ground. Gun was unloaded, so no big deal.

 

[Old Dog]

It's been said many times at places like gun shows that it's far more dangerous to force someone to unholster their loaded firearm, handle it to unload it, rather than telling them to leave it where it is like in the other 23 hours a day of their lives.

Yet, you would trust these same knuckleheads to spend unsupervised time on the range, presumably around others, loading, drawing from their holsters, and shooting as they please?

 

[Ryanxia]

No, it doesn't. But I'm talking about in the context of people repeatedly holstering and unholstering, perhaps with minimal skill. They may not get it in there cleanly every time.

And I have seen guns fall from holsters. Saw it at a USPSA match where someone carrying a target stand bumped the gun of another member out of its holster. Gun hit the ground. Gun was unloaded, so no big deal.

Well if you saw it once then by all means, lets all unload our guns because that's the only way we can be safe....

Sorry to be sarcastic but I think the anti's logic is spreading..

 

[Warp]

People do all sorts of clumsy things when they're handling targets. Combine that with a not-securely-holstered gun, and you've got the makings of an accident.

When has that ever been a problem?

 

[Ryanxia]

Yet, you would trust these same knuckleheads to spend unsupervised time on the range, presumably around others, loading, drawing from their holsters, and shooting as they please?

Yep. Life is scary I know.

Also attend our local gun show with many people carrying loaded guns and not seen an issue. Guess it's just the common sense rule here.

 

[packpike]

No, it doesn't. But I'm talking about in the context of people repeatedly holstering and unholstering, perhaps with minimal skill. They may not get it in there cleanly every time.

And I have seen guns fall from holsters. Saw it at a USPSA match where someone carrying a target stand bumped the gun of another member out of its holster. Gun hit the ground. Gun was unloaded, so no big deal.

Just trying to bridge the divide here...

Dave I think the issue here is that you're speaking of 'match time' where people are pulling said guns in and out on a very regular basis, where-as I'm reading this thinking of my EDC gun. It's no more likely to fall out while changing targets than it is while driving down the street or while buying groceries. To your point though, guns hanging on 'range/speed holsters' that aren't as fully secured as a 'concealed holster' may make sense to be unloaded (like at a match). The issue would be how to regulate the difference.

 

[Warp]

Yet, you would trust these same knuckleheads to spend unsupervised time on the range, presumably around others, loading, drawing from their holsters, and shooting as they please?

I do that every single time I go to either of my local ranges.

 

[Sam1911]

Does your gun fall out of its holster and discharge often in your daily activities?

When has that ever been a problem?

Actually, that is a more or less significant concern, especially with USPSA as some of the more popular holsters their Open division shooters use don't secure the gun unless deliberately "locked" -- otherwise the gun is just cradled in a hanger. Very fast on the draw, but if you forget to lock the holster, even walking up to paste targets can sometimes cause them to get dumped.

Not really that much of a concern for most of the rest of us, but things do happen.

 

[Sam1911]

Yet, you would trust these same knuckleheads to spend unsupervised time on the range, presumably around others, loading, drawing from their holsters, and shooting as they please?

I do that every single time I go to either of my local ranges.

Well, it's ok for YOU -- and ME -- obviously. But not for "others." You know how "others" can be.

 

[taliv]

I missed this pronouncement of taliv's when I perused this thread earlier. Military perhaps (though I was no stranger to USMC-ran hot ranges while I was on active duty), but I am not familiar with any law enforcement agencies that don't run hot ranges for training these days. Drawing from the holster while moving and shooting is commonplace now.

again, drawing from holster while moving and shooting doesn't make a 'hot range'. lots of 'cold ranges' do that.

Secondly, when you conceal carry, the entire world is a hot range. That exists right up to the gate, and there is no reason to believe it stops there. Attempting to impose an artificial rule that inside the gate you can't carry is ludicrous.

yes, a hot range where your handgun rides almost completely encased, rarely touched and never manipulated.

a range on the other hand, is where you are doing every kind of manipulation you can over and over and over. it is reasonable to impose some safety restrictions that don't exist outside the range

 

[Sam1911]

again, drawing from holster while moving and shooting doesn't make a 'hot range'. lots of 'cold ranges' do that.

Right. There is a bit of confusion here because we're discussing several concepts at once all under the name "hot range."

1) The ability to practice "practical" handgunning skills which all begin with working from the holster.

2) The ability to have a concealed (or open?) carried sidearm with you, loaded, at all times for on-range self-defense.

3) The true "hot range" wherein guns are ALWAYS allowed to be loaded at all times, whether holstered, slung, or otherwise safed when not actually shooting.

Gunsite follows the true hot range ideal. A certain (small) number of very well-respected trainers do as well.

Most shooting venues (and all competitions I know of) do not. However, that doesn't have anything to do with whether your gun is holstered or cased.

 

[Ryanxia]

“ 'We'll have rules!' he cried excitedly. 'Lots of rules! Then

when anyone breaks 'em-' "