Cold range vs. Hot range

[Potatohead]

CCW classes as we both know are mostly about the law, and don't really prepare people for shooting

very true

What is that called?

I guess it's cold + holstered handguns?

Lukewarm?

 

[twofifty]

Trent are you going to include a mandatory holster training/certification component?

 

[Trent]

Trent are you going to include a mandatory holster training/certification component?

I'm strongly considering it. We have enough concealed carry instructors at the club that it shouldn't being a problem for members to get out there with someone to get "certified." It would also be a concession that could alleviate some of the concerns of the (very much against) Vice President, at the cost of some time. Concealed Carry instructors get to teach public CCL classes at the range for free, so it'd also be a way they could "give something back" to the members.

I'm also considering including a policy which would not allow "guests" to do live fire work from a holster, unless part of a organized class or event where a trained RO/RSO at the range.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I see so many violations at public ranges and even membership ranges and I have been down range at a target when someone opened fire. I like cold ranges when I have no idea who the other folks are.

I don't see any reason why you should not be allowed to holster (and draw) during a hot cycle or allow people carrying guns to enter during a hot cycle.

Mike

 

[Jeff H]

So, just so I understand correctly, with your VP, there is no action shooting at all???

No USPSA, IDPA, cowboy, heck even steel shooting? Interesting.

Have you thought about baby steps? Maybe getting action shooting legal at the club, host a few events (where the club earns money), and then a few years later (when nothing catastrophic happens), propose the whole hot range idea.

 

[benEzra]

My local range here allows drawing from the holster when the range is hot. When the range is declared cold for shooters to go downrange, those pistols go on the bench unloaded. If you designate a portion of the range for practice from the holster (perhaps one end of the firing line, chosen to minimize any issues in case of an ND) then that would certainly seem to be "going above and beyond".

Not allowing drawing from the holster is a head-scratcher to me. If licensed, vetted individuals are going to be carrying guns in public, do they really think the first time in their *lives* they ever draw and fire a loaded gun should be if they are in the middle of a violent attack? How in the world can people train for competence in CCW---or, heck, competence in garden-variety competition shooting that requires drawing from a holster---if training for competence is prohibited? That's kind of like a drag strip requiring rolling starts from 5 mph so drivers don't lose control and yaw at the start.

Trent, your range sounds like one I used to frequent in northwest Florida (my favorite range of all time, but like yours it is in the deep boonies and sometimes I'd be the only one shooting). One time a lone shooter was downrange and someone pulled up to the firing line and tried to steal his guns; a Platt/Matix style heist was always a worry in those circumstances. My practice was to always take the rifle downrange with me, and if I was alone on the range then the rifle had a magazine in it. I certainly wasn't the only one. And if the range management had instituted a "no loaded guns on your person even though you are alone, out in the boonies, and in possession of items valuable to thieves" rule, then the only difference it would have made would be that people going downrange would have been carrying their loaded guns concealed.

 

[justice06rr]

Hot range is my vote.

That said, I think a club running a 'hot' range is a phenomenally bad idea. Galactically bad.

Can you explain why?


People are handling guns in the range. Whether its a cold or hot range is beside the point. Once you step up to the firing line, load up and get ready to shoot, you are handling a loaded (hot) firearm.

A Cold range will not stop an unsafe person from shooting himself or others in the range.

Many gun store employees Open Carry or Conceal Carry at their job. Why shouldn't we be allowed to do the same? If its in the holster it stays in the holster unless you are shooting.

I've personally seen a shooter at a "Cold" range at a IDPA match shoot himself on the leg during a stage (ND). The Cold range did not prevent this ND from happening. He drew a 1911 from his holster; a gun that has 3 safety features still did not prevent the ND.

 

[Trent]

So, just so I understand correctly, with your VP, there is no action shooting at all???

No USPSA, IDPA, cowboy, heck even steel shooting? Interesting.

Have you thought about baby steps? Maybe getting action shooting legal at the club, host a few events (where the club earns money), and then a few years later (when nothing catastrophic happens), propose the whole hot range idea.

No USPSA... no IDPA.. no cowboy.. we did pin shoots for a while (now cancelled) and they do steel on steel matches (members only) - but for both of those people start from low ready, and not from a holster.

(EDIT TO ADD: Regarding negligent discharges; I was running the timer for an old man once at a pin shoot. Buzzer went off, it startled him, and he put a round through the ready bench in front of him. He obviously broke the rule: keep your booger hooker off the bangswitch until your sights are on target... so yes, I do understand why there is a very real concern about drawing safely.)

There are very few public events. I had to really fight to get NRA High Power & NRA Smallbore matches once per month. I've also been threatened to be shut down on two occasions "unless I yield to any members that show up and want to target shoot." Yes, that's right... If a member shows up and wants to set up and fire a few shots to check a hunting shotgun at 50 yards, I have to suspend the match until they're done... (so far none have asked to do so). They are worried that the rifle shoots (once per month, first Sunday, starting at noon and running to dusk) inconvenience members too much. Although it has never been a problem, on two separate occasions the board has yelled at me at meetings to remind me about it. Some of the board members are kind of ... arrogant.. and like to find / create problems where there are none.

(As far as I'm concerned, if a member wants to shoot on that day, they can pay the $5 entry fee and set up a target, and get in line with the rest.... )

They turned down appleseed outright - I tried to get them in for a day this year, board shot it down, then passed a new rule saying that people can't bring groups to present at the board meetings unless the board first approves it in full; they didn't like having to sit through a presentation.

The board of directors is very closed-minded to new ideas, and the majority of them view the range as their private playground and don't WANT organized shooting events or public events to be held at the range. It's always an uphill battle.

Just giving some examples of the political atmosphere. Everyone else on the board is 2x my age (and I'm 37...)

 

[Sam1911]

Tent, we've seen that sort of viewpoint at a lot of ranges here in PA, except that the debates happened for most of them 5-10 years ago. The old school "my pop broke ground here when the club was started..." types really REALLY didn't like the idea of club expansion, events open to the public, or ANYTHING that looked like what we'd call a "practical" firearms match or training.

Funny thing is, club after club saw someone get a foothold, bring in USPSA or IDPA for one season, and then the about January of the next year ... when the club treasurer gave his report () ... all of a sudden EVERYBODY was on board with the idea! Seems most clubs find they really like having a revenue stream that (generally) about doubles that of all the other club programs put together.

Of course, a truly small and insular club might still be resistant, but it is one way to wedge the door open if you can just get a toe-hold.

 

[Trent]

Trent, your range sounds like one I used to frequent in northwest Florida (my favorite range of all time, but like yours it is in the deep boonies and sometimes I'd be the only one shooting). One time a lone shooter was downrange and someone pulled up to the firing line and tried to steal his guns; a Platt/Matix style heist was always a worry in those circumstances. My practice was to always take the rifle downrange with me, and if I was alone on the range then the rifle had a magazine in it. I certainly wasn't the only one. And if the range management had instituted a "no loaded guns on your person even though you are alone, out in the boonies, and in possession of items valuable to thieves" rule, then the only difference it would have made would be that people going downrange would have been carrying their loaded guns concealed.

Well the contention all started when someone at the board meeting (who always carries a sidearm) pointed out that the range rules as they exist right now were "all firearms must be unloaded except when on the firing line ready to use" (paraphrasing, don't have the signs wordage handy at the moment.)

Fixing that is as simple as changing it to: "All firearms must remain unloaded until ready to use." (NRA rule #3) (For those only familiar with Cooper's rules, here's a link to the NRA rules of gun safety: http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx)


But... Huh? Doesn't that line say that all guns should remain unloaded until on the firing line ready to use?

No.... it does not.

NRA instructors teach in PPITH/PPOTH, NRA Rule #3 isn't violated when you put a loaded gun in a holster and wear it on your body, because it is ready to use (for self defense).

I have often - and willfully - violated the club rule about loaded guns when I am alone and change targets with a loaded firearm. When I'm on the rifle range I'll sling it and take it down range, or put it in the passenger seat and drive out (if weather is crap).

I've always felt I am not violating the range rules because "all I am doing is moving the firing line forward with me". (Our range allows you to set the firing line wherever so long as you are not rearward of the benches and no one is handling guns behind you; I often practice shooting while moving when I'm alone)

Yes it's a technicality, but life is full of technicalities.

What is more important is phrasing it like that will deter guests, while still giving members the option of keeping a loaded gun on them (because it is ready to use for self defense, it is not violating the rules, per se).

 

[Trent]

Some additional thoughts;

*** Passing rules to ban concealed carry of firearms on a shooting range will do nothing to improve safety, as people will either ignore them (I HAVE A RIGHT, DANGIT!), or will try to comply in a fashion that is not conducive to safety (handling loaded guns in the enclosed spaces of a vehicle, or otherwise where it is not appropriate to do so).

*** Passing rules to ban live fire from holsters is not desirable, as this is a vital life-saving skill which needs to be practiced. (Yes dry fire draw practice can and does help but it is *not* the same, as anyone who has ever tried to put round #1 on target in the stress of competition will know).

*** Performing live fire exercises from a draw *does* add additional safety concerns but with proper rules these safety issues can be greatly mitigated. Because of the nature of what we do, risk can never be eliminated, but we can arrange things to make it just a little safer.

The root causes of all firearms accidents are ignorance and carelessness.

Ignorance:

* Not knowing what gear to use to carry and use a loaded gun on a shooting range safely.

* Not having the training required to draw, use, and re-holster a loaded gun safely.

Carelessness

* Using improper gear for the environment - e.g. shoulder holsters which sweep everyone behind and to the side of you when you draw. (Assuming the shooter should know better, just doesn't care.)

* Using gear without specific training for it - SERPA holsters come to mind. Those will flat out PUNISH you with a self-inflicted gun shot wound, if you aren't trained and practice properly. (I don't like SERPA holsters, and won't use them personally, but if the person is trained properly it's a non-issue)

* Using gear which the shooter KNOWS does not positively retain the gun. (A good holster should let you do cartwheels, as an extreme example; under normal activities the gun should NEVER come dislodged. If it DOES, you didn't CHECK IT well enough before staking your life on it, and thus, it falls under the carelessness side of the equation)

* Not looking at what you are doing when re-holstering.

(One of my biggest pet peeves since starting to teach CCL is watching people re-holster without LOOKING; just trying to cram the gun back in to the holster while not looking, five or six times, until they get it "right" - I yell at people about this in class, I view it as a safety violation. When teaching concealed carry I present this is "LOOK, LIFT, and HOLSTER", where "Lift" is moving your cover garment out of the way.)

*** putting their finger on the trigger until the gun is fully presented - whether shooting from retention or extending all the way out, the finger should NOT cover the trigger, PERIOD, until you are ready to fire.


And so on.

The causes of negligent discharges always have a root cause. We can cure ignorance with training, and we can cure carelessness with punitive actions (expulsion / ejection / reprimands / etc).

EDIT TO ADD: I find the nanny-mentality of "it's dangerous so ban it" appalling (sounds all too familiar, since it's the standard rhetoric of the anti-gunners). Proper training can remedy the problems ignorance and carelessness. Tell people how to do something properly, and inform them of the consequences if they don't do it as they've been trained.

 

[murf]

so, anyone could bring a long gun to the range fully loaded...for self defense. or a shotgun, etc.

nra rule #3 says nothing about a holster. your "self defense" argument is pretty thin, imo.

playing the "bad guy" here, for the sake of argument. just trying to help you get the rules changed.

murf

 

[twofifty]

Trent thank you for taking on this mission on behalf of the responsible shooting community. The more clubs are saved from themselves the better for all.

Wondering what the old guards' motivations might be, I came up with the following possibilities, in no particular order:

- they don't understand the importance of holster training for some reason beyond fear of accidents. Maybe they aren't CCers? Maybe you giving them 1-on-1 private holster training would overcome some ignorance.

- fear of embarrassment. Presuming that right now they represent the club's most accomplished shooters (in their minds), introducing a new more dynamic activity might undermine their supremacy and self image.

- fear of drawing unnecessary law enforcement/regulatory scrutiny. Is the facility up to snuff in terms of access control, berms, arcs of fire? Where could a stray shot that misses the berms land? If improvements are needed can the club afford it?

- private range syndrome. They don't realize that saying no will sooner than later effectively kill their club. Clubs need new blood. Lets attract, train and retain young new shooters who are interested in dynamic activities like Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, IDPA-USPSA, Cowboy Action, whatever it takes. Someone has to pay the bills, the taxes, maintenance.

- fear of liability. Is the club's Board well protected by the current liability/errors and omissions policy?

- fear of loss of control. This is hard to cure. Some of the above measures might help. If not, recruit new members and take over the Board at the next AGM.

 

[taliv]

trent from your description in post 133, i have no idea why you have a wait to get into this club. i'd have bailed long ago and found some place they want people to shoot. those people obviously don't. as the wise man once said, do not attempt to teach a pig to sing. you will accomplish nothing and only annoy the pig.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I'm with Tom on this one.


We accomplished it at my club, but it took the coordination of members showing up to vote and replacing key control-freak board members.

Far too much was involved to go into on a simple forum post or two about how it was accomplished.

 

[larryh1108]

It makes it harder if the board members also own the property the range is on. They may have appointed themselves permanent members of the decision making system. If they own the land and get voted out, they sound like guys who would take their ball and go home. Of course, if they are just the charter members with no ownership then you could arrange a coup.

 

[Trent]

We're drifting in to internal politics here, but that's OK, because the range SOP is a political issue. Each year there is an "election committee" which basically involves hand picking board members by the current board. I was tapped by the outgoing secretary (who was secretary for 10+ years) because he was moving to North Carolina and I went to school with his son, so we knew each other. He wanted to ensure "new blood" got in. I spent 8 months "acting secretary" last year to cover for him as he was missing a few meetings due to moving to North Carolina.

When the election committee (which consisted of one person - one of the original member's sons) called me up and asked me if I wanted to take the position full time, I said "sure." Then at the annual meeting, I was on the list of people for the board.

How that works each year is simple. The board puts forward a motion, and reads the names of the board members, and asks for a second. Once it's seconded, it's called for a vote. And that's that. As far as I know, the board and executive board has been elected unanimously every year for 30+ years, and rarely ever changes. There's a lot of nepotism here; last year the president was the son of the past president, etc.

Now, through a random twist of fate (having gone through school with a board members son), I'm on the executive board as club secretary. The by-laws don't really give me much authority; a small expense account which I haven't used, record keeping, and that's about it. I get one vote on issues brought before the board.

However, my name and cell phone # is one of three numbers on the back of every member's membership card now. So there is that. Plus, Secretary is more or less a permanent position; once they choose someone, it doesn't seem to ever change (unless the secretary moves on to be President, then they go back to secretary after a year because a president has a 1 year term limit in the club).

But, this is how politics work in a private club. The "reigns of power" are handed down selectively.

I *do* need to be careful and bide my time. If I'm pushed off the executive board for being too "against the grain" I will find myself a normal member without any voice.

Being a young guy (37) a lot of the board members look at me like I'm a kid, though. (Truthfully I'm young enough to be a grandchild to most of them...)

I've learned that more gets done after the meetings and 1 on 1 than in the meetings themselves, so I should have the stage set for some changes before the meeting next month.

The club can evolve, but it happens very slowly. The old dogs don't like changes.

 

[klausman]

Food for thought: It seems to me that it is very hard to "self-coach". That makes it easy to ingrain bad habits. How about a requirement that holster draw practice be only with an accompanying coach to pick up errors who can also act as an RSO?

 

[Trent]

trent from your description in post 133, i have no idea why you have a wait to get into this club. i'd have bailed long ago and found some place they want people to shoot. those people obviously don't. as the wise man once said, do not attempt to teach a pig to sing. you will accomplish nothing and only annoy the pig.

The range is 10 minutes from my house, and 99% of the time when I go to shoot there, I'm alone. There's something to be said about that.

The other options suck.

There's a range in Lincoln, IL, about 20 minutes away, which is tiny and has a huge membership (5,000+ last I heard). It has a little 100 yard rifle range, but the trap range sits behind it. So if one guy with a shotgun shows up, the rifle range is closed.

There's a range in Bloomington, IL, about 30 minutes away, but same scenario. 300 yard rifle range runs East-West, trap range overlooks it. Rifle range has priority until noon on weekdays, then closed for trap after noon and on the weekends. I'm always working in the limited hours, when it's available to use.

There's a range about 1 hour away near Lacon, IL but it's max distance is 125 yards. When I lived closer to it, I used to go there, but it was ill-maintained and poorly run. No gates, so gangbangers from Peoria often showed up and shot the hell out of everything - stuffed animals, electronics, the toilets (!!), etc.

Another short range (100 yard) rifle range near Metamora, IL, about 45 mins away, but it's very private (member has to die to get in), and same basic stuff - someone shows up to shoot trap, you're done shooting rifle.

Chilicothe, IL is about an hour and 15 minutes away from me, semi-private (they still accept apps last I heard), with good facilities, but the ranges are always closed for events on the weekends that I have available. Couldn't get much use out of it. (Plus they have a lot of required work hours that'd be a pain in the butt to get in each year, considering it's close to a 3 hour round trip for me - don't want to drive that long to "not shoot").

All other ranges I know of in the area are 1.5+ hours away, and private.

Two ISRA ranges open to the public but they're very far away (3 and 4 hours respectively). With 5 kids an overnight trip to shoot is out of the question (My wife frowns on it...), and I'm not the type of guy that'll get up at 3 AM to drive several hours to do anything. Always too damn tired on the weekends for that crap.

So, not many choices in the area.

 

[Trent]

Food for thought: It seems to me that it is very hard to "self-coach". That makes it easy to ingrain bad habits. How about a requirement that holster draw practice be only with an accompanying coach to pick up errors who can also act as an RSO?

Not enough "coaches" - like I said before, due to low membership (fixed at 250 members), 99.9% of the time when you go to the range, it's empty. There's only three concealed carry instructors who are members, two of us have day jobs. The third is retired but lives quite a ways away.

 

[BullfrogKen]

When the election committee (which consisted of one person - one of the original member's sons) called me up and asked me if I wanted to take the position full time, I said "sure." Then at the annual meeting, I was on the list of people for the board.

But, this is how politics work in a private club. The "reigns of power" are handed down selectively.

Nonsense. That may be what everyone has come to respect and accept them to be, but in a (this is a [STRIKE]501c4[/STRIKE], right?) membership club, dues paying members have a say. A big say.

You really need a copy of the club's Charter and current copy of it's Constitution and By-Laws. If you have it, read through it. It's a legal document enforceable in a court of law. Speaking of laws, the state where your club is incorporated also gives the Officers, Board of Directors, and the membership-at-large certain rights in addition to those specifically granted in the C&BLs.

To suggest the current situation of the Board choosing for itself through a puppet committee who it's successors will be is not how membership organizations are set up to run. Now it may be how everyone has accepted it to be run, but that's not how these organizations are governed either by state rules or most C&BLs.

I *do* need to be careful and bide my time. If I'm pushed off the executive board for being too "against the grain" I will find myself a normal member without any voice.

Being a young guy (37) a lot of the board members look at me like I'm a kid, though. (Truthfully I'm young enough to be a grandchild to most of them...)

First of all, most people get on a BoD of an organization like this because no one else wants to do it. If you get pushed off, you'll have your life back. So take advantage of your position.

Secondly, I was 33 when I was elected President of my local 1,200 member club. And under very turbulent circumstances. I was in the same spot you were. Your age is not a factor. You have rights as a Board Member, as well as responsibilites. Drop the deference to age and realize it's not the time stomping this earth that gives you your voice, its your position as an elected Board Member.


Like I said, if you get voted off you'll have your life back. So take the time to make a difference or stop doing a job no one else wants to do. Because in organizations like this, that is the absolute truth of where you find yourself right now.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Meant to type 501c7.


Trying to make a fabulous turkey dinner for Mother's Day in the midst of responding. Sorry.


But not sorry . . . I make a GREAT supper.

 

[Warp]

I just spent the last two days on the range. Yesterday at times we had over 20 guys walking around with (fully) loaded rifles hanging in slings.

The horror!

 

[Slamfire]

My range is cold and this is a practice I agree with. As far as I know, the Indians are on reservations, Nazi Paratroopers are grounded, I am not worried about an Alien invasion occurring at the range, so what exact threat are people worried about that they have to running around condition one, or, condition zero?

One of the most paranoid organizations about loaded weapons is the Army. Talk with enough Army veterans and virtually everyone has some version of a negligent discharge story they heard, or saw.

My gun club pays a lot of its insurance. I expect the first injury or worse, fatality, due to a negligent discharge at your hot range will jack your insurance sky high, and as an added bonus, your Club Officers are likely to be sued for every penny they have. Be lucky if you only lose your range. I am aware of a range that allows full auto shooting, a full auto shooter allowed a nine year old girl to shoot a Mac 10 subgun. The little girl could not control the thing, and a 45 ACP slug sailed over the ex quarry walls, hit a guy on his roof 1500 yards down range. Luckily the homeowner did not die. That shut the range down for a while with police investigations, then the insurance jacked way up. Just to keep their insurance the range had to install $100,000 in “range improvements”. They are still in operation but they know city encroachment will shut them down.

There are unsupervised public ranges in the vicinity, and if you want a death defying experience, show up at one of those. Condition one types sweeping the firing line with their muzzles. It can be scary at times.

You can change the character of your range, just accept to do all the work, and accept all the liability.

 

[Warp]

My range is cold and this is a practice I agree with. As far as I know, the Indians are on reservations, Nazi Paratroopers are grounded, I am not worried about an Alien invasion occurring at the range, so what exact threat are people worried about that they have to running around condition one, or, condition zero?

I agree.

This is why nobody should be allowed to carry concealed.

Because there are no Indians, Nazis, or aliens out there. What exactly is the threat anyway?