Cold range vs. Hot range

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Michael Platt and William Matix murdered Emilio Breil while he was target shooting by himself at a rock pit, in order to steal his car and guns.Later they shot Jose Collazo in very similar circumstances and left him for dead. He survived. Platt and Matix went on to commit numerous bank robberies and murder two FBI agents.
The range you describe is rife for this sort of incident.
 
I have mixed feelings about this. I belong to a private club that is a "cold range". While it would be nice for those of us who have our CWP's to not have to strip down when going to the range, the range does have a spotless safety record since it's founding back in the '40s. Did being a cold range contribute to that? I don't know. But hardly a week goes by when we read about some knucklehead accidently discharging his or her concealed weapon. Many of the articles are quoted right here in THR.

I retired from the heavy industrial construction industry, and have seen first hand what a serious focus on safety has accomplished over the years. Everybody has a right to go home healthy, whether it is from work or from the range.
 
BullfrogKen said:
You have rights as a Board Member, as well as responsibilites.

Like I said, if you get voted off you'll have your life back. So take the time to make a difference or stop doing a job no one else wants to do. Because in organizations like this, that is the absolute truth of where you find yourself right now.
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From the IL AG website;

Accountability
The Illinois Attorney General has the responsibility to the public of assuring sound and legal operation of not-for-profit organizations. This includes bringing legal action against board members for failure to exercise their legal responsibilities. Board members can be held personally liable by third parties injured by actions of the organization. Liability insurance for directors and officers is often available to cover some of these situations.
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Source; http://illinoisattorneygeneral.gov/charities/volunteers.html
 
Sam1911 said:
Tent, we've seen that sort of viewpoint at a lot of ranges here in PA, except that the debates happened for most of them 5-10 years ago. The old school "my pop broke ground here when the club was started..." types really REALLY didn't like the idea of club expansion, events open to the public, or ANYTHING that looked like what we'd call a "practical" firearms match or training.

Funny thing is, club after club saw someone get a foothold, bring in USPSA or IDPA for one season, and then the about January of the next year ... when the club treasurer gave his report (;)) ... all of a sudden EVERYBODY was on board with the idea! Seems most clubs find they really like having a revenue stream that (generally) about doubles that of all the other club programs put together.

Of course, a truly small and insular club might still be resistant, but it is one way to wedge the door open if you can just get a toe-hold.
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The club started as a trap & skeet club.. the rest of the "stuff" was afterthoughts. Trap & skeet still brings in the lions share of revenue; they ordered $34,000 in clay targets in December to get through 2014. (That is a LOT of clay targets....)

It took several years to get the steel on steel pits exhumed on the back of the club property. We have five bays now that are suitable for USPSA (while still leaving a pistol range open to members) but the big hold up is "if one member comes to the range and wants to use the hand trap it would shut the event down."

Doesn't matter if 15-20 members are shooting USPSA with guests.

It's damned aggravating, but there's remarkable potential to run USPSA, 3-Gun events, etc with the range space we have.

Changing hearts & minds isn't easy but a new generation is up and coming, sooner or later they'll need to listen...
 
Warp said:
This range is a not-for-profit organization?
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I'll have to check to make 100% sure, but I believe it is a registered non-profit. If I recall, that's the reason we don't make political campaign donations. (They do encourage members to do so; the range requires members also be a member of NRA and ISRA). Keep in mind I've had this "job" since February and I still haven't received any old records...
 
Trent said:
Liability insurance for directors and officers is often available to cover some of these situations.
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Yup.

And that's why the first year I held office I insisted the club purchase a healthy Officer's & Director's Liability Insurance policy. In fact, I wouldn't take office without it.


I'm no attorney, but from my undergrad business law classes I recollect that the standard for holding officers and directors personally liable was more than simple negligence. I recall the standard was gross or willful negligence.


Anyway. Assert your rights and responsibilities in their totality or don't serve. That was my take on the matter.
 
Trent said:
The club started as a trap & skeet club.. the rest of the "stuff" was afterthoughts. Trap & skeet still brings in the lions share of revenue; they ordered $34,000 in clay targets in December to get through 2014. (That is a LOT of clay targets....)

It took several years to get the steel on steel pits exhumed on the back of the club property. We have five bays now that are suitable for USPSA (while still leaving a pistol range open to members) but the big hold up is "if one member comes to the range and wants to use the hand trap it would shut the event down."

Doesn't matter if 15-20 members are shooting USPSA with guests.

It's damned aggravating, but there's remarkable potential to run USPSA, 3-Gun events, etc with the range space we have.

Changing hearts & minds isn't easy but a new generation is up and coming, sooner or later they'll need to listen...
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I'd guess 80% of outdoor ranges in the U.S. that have been around more than 15 years are similar. I know the ones around here are. Regular handgun shooting is something relatively new as is shooting rifles more than right before deer season or after a new purchase or new scope is mounted. The great increase in handgun, SD/HD and tactical type weapons and the training associated with them, is something many "old timers" have a hard time accepting. Even tho they shoot trap/skeet once or more a week, the idea of shooting hundreds of rounds at man shaped targets and practicing fast draw is difficult for them to grasp. These "old timers" are generally the ones that have been around the longest and have the most authority in the club/range chain of command. The two small club ranges I spoke of earlier took a while to accept the fact that designated handgun ranges/stations were needed. Before then, handgun shooters came when no one else was around and just moved the rifle benches up closer to the berm. Once the handgun ranges were established, it was just a matter of time before handgun competition evolved. Once CWC became more common, the idea that practicing fast draw came about. Again, the many "old timers" were reluctant, but being shown and assured it was safe, and pressure from others for a period of time, wore them down. Now....it's no longer looked down upon or thought of being unsafe.

But each range is different and so are it's members. For a range to error on the side of safety is not a bad thing. To make sure it is done right the first time is also a good thing. Safe shooting is something we really do not want to learn from our mistakes. Members in power, are generally elected by their peers because they represent their philosophy. Hopefully there are also elected because of their knowledge and participation....not just because they're related to the most members. They should know what the general population of the club/range members want and the direction the club needs to go to keep up with the times and the members desires.
 
Update on the board meeting. The issue was decided and is now done.

Concealed carry is allowed on the range property.

Keeping loaded firearms on your person during cease fires is allowed on the range so long as they remain holstered. No handling of firearms while people are in front of the firing line.

Individual match directors are allowed to set their own rules for their matches. E.g. I can allow concealed carry of handguns during my rifle matches, while the steel on steel shoot organizer can prohibit them on his line (except for the "active shooter" drawing and shooting, he'll run off IPSC rules for gun handling with a designated safe area for deholstering and unloading handguns).

Crossdraw, small of back, and shoulder holsters are banned for live fire use - cannot use a holster that causes one to sweep the firing line or themselves. Which basically limits holster / live fire use to strong side only (which is what I wanted). You can still conceal carry in these fashions but can't practice drawing and firing from those types.

Anyway, went about as well as I'd hoped, and exactly the direction I wanted it to go.

Thank you to all THR members who contributed to the discussion!
 
Wow. Every danged once in a while, somebody does something right. Not often, but once in a blue moon. You managed to work with your board to do something right, and that's just awesome! :)
 
I also brought up running an annual 3-gun match at tonight's board meeting and met no serious resistance. I think the stars might be aligned in my favor. :)

The only negative response was from the pistol match organizer, who was a little hesitant... "You know how much WORK that'll be????" (He's worried about messing up his precisely aligned and measured steel-on-steel pits). I said "we'll spraypaint the ground whee your targets are and put everything exactly back where it was before; and I'll have at least three trained RSO's with me to help me set up and run the match."

Five years ago the THOUGHT of a 3-gun match being run would have caused the board to panic. :)

Times change...
 
Great going Trent. I prefer Hot ranges and the only one's I get to use are at my Gunfighting Schools I have attended. A newby is not going to spend $500 for two days of training shooting 700 rounds of ammo. A seasoned CCW will. Every class I have attended we all arrived loaded and ready to go. Sign the releases and head to the range. The unfortunate thing is that there are not that many folks trained in the proficient and safe methods of drawing and shooting a gun. My belief is that more than 90% of the folks that have handguns are not knowledgeable in the use of the guns and how to function them including reloading and fault clearance.
 
Outstanding, Trent!

Care to tell us the mechanics behind implimenting this policy? In other words, what did you do to facilitate getting what you wanted. I know we discussed a variety of ways to work things so that it's easier to get the policy changes one wants in earlier comments.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Outstanding, Trent!

Care to tell us the mechanics behind implimenting this policy? In other words, what did you do to facilitate getting what you wanted. I know we discussed a variety of ways to work things so that it's easier to get the policy changes one wants in earlier comments.
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Actually went surprisingly easy.

I talked with various board members before the meeting, felt out what they wanted or objected to. Then when the meeting time came, I sat my butt right next to the only person who vehemently objected, and ran the show. President stayed silent as I directed the conversation. The Vice President (who 100% objected to concealed carry on the range) was absolutely silent during the entire thing.

I overstepped my bounds a little as Secretary but I used the reading of the minutes and calling of old business to my advantage, prefacing the tabled concealed carry discussion with my thoughts before calling speakers. Technically the President should have done that but he was content to sit back and watch.

I also stacked the audience with some very vocal members who were ready to light up the room if things started going south for the effort. The new faces of members who are not normally there for board meetings raised enough eyebrows that it had the desired effect, without needing to employ the additional drama.

Nice to have reinforcements on call though. :)
 
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