Conversation with OH. Trooper on "Plain sight" provision of CCW Law

[usp_fan]

I thought I'd relate an experience I recently had with an OH State Trooper. His actions and comments were interesting concerning CCW and the requirement for the weapon to be "in plain sight" when you are in a vehicle.

I had the opportunity to be pulled over in Henry County on ST Rt 6 about 15 miles East of Edgerton. The trooper told me I'd had been oing over 63 mph but didn't say how fast. He asked for my Licence, reg. & ins. I said sure, and then said, "When you run my plates, you'll notice I have a CCW. I'm not carrying today because I'm on my way to one of our plants."

He said thanks for telling me, took my papers and said, "I'm going to issue a warning, I'll be right back."

He came back with my warning and then asked how long it had taken me to get the CCW throught Wood County. I told him an he told me some stories about pulling over other CCW holders. He seemed to want to talk so I asked about his interpretation of the "plain sight" req.

He said their attourney had told them they could arrest you if any part of your arm was touching the gun (hand to elbow) and to avoid wearing it on the hip. He said their CSI people usually just throw them on the dash. I mentioned that I'd be in violation of the "on the body" requirement and I didn't have a glove compartment to lock it in. Then he recommended that I stuff it down the front of my pants Gansta style. I indicated I'd probably not feel safe with that solution.

Finally he said to at least move my hip holster as far forward on my right hip as I could so as to be visible.

One thing that I took away from this is they really don't know how to enforce this, and although this trooper was interested and polite (he most likely let me out of a ticket due to my mentioning my CCW) I may not be as lucky in the future.

This individual assured me that they were going to use good judgement and common sense. I'm a little hesitant to rely on each trooper interpreting the law using his/her own version of common sense. I guess I may just have to invest in cruise control for my Jetta.

Overall, it was a good interaction--made better by not getting a ticket and having some good conversation with a nice and professional officer.

--usp_fan

 

[Standing Wolf]

This individual assured me that they were going to use good judgement and common sense. I'm a little hesitant to rely on each trooper interpreting the law using his/her own version of common sense.

It's an extremely poorly written law.

A good radar detector is a worthy investment.

 

[RevDisk]

A good radar detector is a worthy investment.

Those are not legal everywhere.

 

[ssr]

Hmm. So that doesn't really clear up anything does it? I sure hope this portion of the law is changed soon. Unconcealing and concealing every time you step in and out of a car is crazy, and senseless.

 

[liliysdad]

A good radar detector is a worthy investment

See how many warnings THAT gets ya...

 

[Standing Wolf]

The point of a radar detector is to avoid getting involved in conversations with law enforcement officers on short notice.

That saidâ„¢, they're most emphatically not fool-proof, nor are they any use whatever when you're visually spotted doing X m.p.h. in a Y m.p.h. zone, nor do they do any good when cops are working in pairs and trios. They can help: that's all.

All that saidâ„¢, I have to admit it's been two years since the last time I was more than five or ten miles over the limit. My monthly car insurance premium exceeded my monthly car payment, and when I moved to Colorado, my People's Republic of California speeding violation points somehow didn't tag along after me. Next time I cross Nevada on Highway 50, I'm sure I'll suddenly stop caring about speeding tickets for at least a few miles.

 

[CleverNickname]

A good radar detector is a worthy investment

See how many warnings THAT gets ya...

I got to meet a Colorado State Trooper on my way back to Texas last week. He let me go with a warning, and mentioned he usually doesn't do that for people who have radar detectors. The V1 on my dash wasn't exactly hiding.

I couldn't remember whether it was mandatory to notify LEOs if you're carrying in Colorado, so I think the fact I told him I was carrying helped a bit in getting a warning instead of a ticket.

 

[Coronach]

Key point:

One thing that I took away from this is they really don't know how to enforce this...

Yup.

This is brand new stuff. No one knows yet how it will fly in practice. Agencies are developing policy based upon what their legal advsors think the law means. It will not be until cases start working their way through the courts that case law defines what is meant by the 'in plain view' provision, and the 'locked glove box' requirements (among others).

Before anyone starts screaming bloody murder about this, one must take a moment to realize that case law is how the legal standards that protect our freedoms from state power (like Miranda v Arizona) come about. It is the natural process of our legal system.

Still, however, it just plain sucks to be the test case. Don't be that guy.

Mike

PS Oh, a word of advice? One way to avoid drawing the attention of law enforcement is to not spin your head around like you just got whiplash, stare so hard at my cruiser that you nearly drift out of your lane of travel, and generally act like you are completely paranoid and scared to death at the mere sight of a cop car. This will cause me to run your tag in the middle of a boring Thursday afternoon.

You know who you are, Mr. CCW permit holder. I hope your neck feels better.

 

[usp_fan]

Thankfully it wasn't me.

I've mastered the use eyes only to check rear view mirror technique.

I had 6 years to practice it going the other way on Highway 6 to Clyde, OH when I used to commute out there for work.

I'm a much more conservative driver these days. I just wish you could really open it up out in those corn fields. The roads are straight and there's nothing to hit.

--usp_fan

 

[Brian D.]

I've been carrying on the strong side hip, shirt pulled back and tucked behind the gun/holster. Been keeping my wallet out of my pocket, laying on the seat, so I don't have to reach anywhere near the gun to produce my ID's. Just have to remember to grab the wallet when exiting the vehicle. So far it's all a moot point, as it's always been five years or so between LE "encounters" for me. And as Martha S. would say, "That's a good thing."

 

[SRN]

Mike is absolutely right about case law having to determine what some provisions of the Ohio CHL law mean. However, its up to the legislature to define a law sufficiently so that a person aware of the law, and wanting to comply with the law, is able to act within the law. Failure to do so makes the provision of the law void for vagueness under the constitution. (And if you have a lot of money, a great attorney, a good judge, and get lucky - you might be able to get the charges thown out on this basis.)

I testified in front of both the Ohio House and Senate, asking them to avoid laying legal landmines in this legislation. This law is full of them. The plain sight provision for car carry is probably one of the worst examples, but there are many others.

The real tragedy is that honest folks who have lived their entire lives within the letter and spirit of the laws of the US and Ohio will wind up with felony convictions and doing time in state prisons because the legislature did such a poor job. I'm an engineer. When I design something its expected to work properly. Apparently, with lawmakers somewhere in the ballpark is close enought.

regards,
Steve

 

[Coronach]

I testified in front of both the Ohio House and Senate, asking them to avoid laying legal landmines in this legislation. This law is full of them. The plain sight provision for car carry is probably one of the worst examples, but there are many others.

Agreed.

Remember, these are the same people who rewrote the state-wide traffic code and required all motorists cited in traffic accidents to appear in person to answer the charge(s), and then acted startled when the traffic court dockets became completely logjammed with irate motorists who had fender-benders...and then had the gall to say "Well, that wasn't what we meant."



Mike

 

[sendec]

Of course if you follow Coronach's advice....

And refuse to do anything at all to acknowledge the presence of the cruiser and pretend I'm invisible, that's when I'll notice. By all means, avoid eye contact, especially if we are next to one another at a stop light. When the light changes make sure you pull out behind me, no matter how slow I am. If I am doing 50 MPH in the slow lane of a divided highway be certain not to drive the speed limit and pass me (I am doing 50 cause I'm trying to read something off the MDT or listening to the drunk in back describe my paternal heritage, in addition to trying to trap people doing 1 over)



In re the OH CCW law, 3 words: "void for vagueness"

 

[Coronach]

I think the key phrase should be:

ACT NORMAL. You're not doing anything wrong!

Mike

PS Yeah, the "if I don't see him he can't see me" philosophy is referred to as the No Ops Stare. People with No valid Operator's License tend to see the cruiser, look away in painfully forced nonchalance, and then stare fixedly at the traffic light, willing it to change with every muscle in their face and body. It is so amusing.

 

[NoHarmNoFAL]

Now that there is reciprocity with other states I can't wait for all the future out of state felons to roll in. This is a stupid law and I will not get my CCW until it is gone, what’s the point? I would rather not carry at all than risk a ND changing holsters or being an inadvertent felon at the discretion of some hoplophobic LEO. YMMV.

 

[Atticus]

The law is messed up. On any given trip to run errands, you have to alter your plans and style of carry at least a half a dozen times. God forbid that you leave your car, walk a few blocks, and end up taking your kid (with a sudden bout of diarrhea) to the bathroom on government property. Yeah that's what law enforcement is all about.
The law was crafted to discourage people from carrying... plain and simple.

 

[SMMAssociates]

While I too feel that the OH CHL is full of poison pills and worse, if you haven't got one, GO GET ONE!

The reasons:

1. You may need it now that the "Affirmative Defense" is gone.

2. The "anti's" are making hay out of the lack of applicants, "proving" a lack of interest, to further work against those who feel a need for it.

Finding the time to take the course is going to be harder than actually taking it. The rest of the PITA can be avoided by finding the right County Sheriff with whom to apply.

It cost me $145, not counting some ammunition.

Unfortunately, not having seriously shot for something like 25 years got me _really_ back into the hobby. I sure hope the wife doesn't find out how much I paid for a new gun. At least until I sell another one.... Then there's the additional ammo and.... But, I'd forgotten how much fun it was, and carrying legally beats taking a chance on the "Affirmative Defense" as long as I don't do anything really stupid.

The AG's opinion on off-duty LEO's carry _may_ blow the vehicular carry nonsense out of the water, too.

 

[Ukraine Train]

I carry on my right side at about 4 o'clock. When in a car I just pull my shirt back and pull the grip of the gun up as high as I can. I've also started carrying my wallet in my left rear pocket, instead of right, which surprisingly has taken some getting used to lol. One of the guys on the Ohio CCW mail list got a cheapo holster that he straps to the top of his thigh and carries the gun there while in a vehicle. This is no doubt "plain sight" but I'm having reservations on trying this because I drive a Camaro and just about every other car on the road is taller and it's easy for its occupants to see the gun on my leg.