Converting AR Pisol to SBR

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plus the cost of engraving the receiver with your name and location since you "made" a new firearm.
I thought that was only RECCOMENDED to be done by the BATFE for insurance/theft recovery purposes, but only REQUIRED if you ever want to sell, or otherwise permanantly transfer it, to someone else? I thought as long as as non-licensed person (ie-someone not licensed as a gun manufaturer) made the gun, and wasnt selling or otherwise transferring it, it didnt even need a serial number, let alone the name, address, etc stuff (may be wrong about the serial number part, but almost positive abouth the other info).Anyone know if this is correct? pretty sure I read it here, and/or in TFL's "NFA Weapons" sub-forum before when this kind of thing came up....
 
jrfoxx:
Engraving your name, city and state is legally required on NFA firearms, the "suggested" engraving is on 80% recievers.

Kharn
 
What's this talk about engraving? I did an SBR by simply getting the papers approved and then swapping an 18 inch barrel for a 12 inch barrel, and the ATF told me it was as simple as that, they never said anything about engraving my name on any part of the gun.

They said since it already had enough identification numbers, the name of the importer, the manufacturer of the receiver, etc, a serial number, etc, that it was fine. I'd wager if they had been suckering me in to set me up for some sting, they would have done it a eight months ago when I submitted the papers and received approval...
 
As far as having the parts on hand... I can weigh in on this as well... When I was going through the process of getting the SBR paperwork, I wanted to order the 12 inch barrel and keep it around so I'd be able to drop it right in place the minute I got my papers back, but the ATF handler for my paperwork said "DO NOT have such a barrel in your possession until after you are approved" so I waited until after my approval (which incidentally only took about four weeks) before getting the short barrel.


At least my handler had a sense of humor. When I asked him, "It says give an explanation as to the yes answers... My answer to being under 21 is a yes, what should my explanation be? Should I write something about how my mom and dad didn't get together a year sooner?" He laughed at that... Then again, when I got to the part and read "It asks the purpose for creating this weapon, should I put "size matters, but sometimes in the opposite way..." and he started to laugh and said, "Oh that's good, but don't put that, most other people around here might not laugh at it."
 
They said since it already had enough identification numbers, the name of the importer, the manufacturer of the receiver, etc, a serial number, etc, that it was fine.

ATF told you specifically in writing that you did not need additional engraving on your SBR receiver?


The advice you are giving here goes against just about everyone in the NFA business's understanding so if you have something in writing from ATF that would be great.
 
No, they didn't say anything in writing, but they said it over the phone. Also on my paperwork when it said "WHAT ADDITIONAL WRITING/MARKINGS WILL APPEAR ON FIREARM" I simply wrote the exact same number that was already on the firearm and listed as the serial number, so they clearly saw I had no intention of making any additional markings.
 
I asked my handler, "It says list the name of the manufacturer, well that is already on the firearm, right? Does the person who made it count as the manufacturer or do I count as the manufacturer, since I am making a new firearm, technically... However, I am making it simply by dropping a new barrel, a shorter barrel, into the place where the old barrel was... I am not building something from the ground up."

He then said something along the lines of (I don't remember the exact words, it was about 8 months ago), "You're merely modifying an existing firearm, you're not the manufacturer of it so you don't count as the manufacturer..."
 
Well that's the problem, you have nothing in writing. There is plenty in writing the other way.

The Form 1 says:

The undersigned hereby makes application, as required by Sections 5821 and 5822 of the National
Fireams Act, Title 26 U.S.C., Chapter 53, to make and register the firearm described below.

Of the original firearm it says:

Name and Location of Original Manufacturer of
Firearm b. Type of Firearm

Which implies that the original manufacturer is no longer the manufacturer after this since you intend to MAKE a firearm where none existed before.

And then you get to the requirements that any "maker" of a firearm has to engrave it. You don't need a new serial number or model number because you used the originals on the Form 1, but the manufacturer has changed, it's now the person filling out the Form 1.

You can ignore it if you want but I'd sure want more than a phone conversation. Every NFA expert I've ever heard talk about it insists that your name and location is required to be added.

If you look wayyyy back when a Form 1 could be used to make a machine gun you will see the same.

Wes Tex for example was a company that took ARs and made them into registered receivers. They have "Sendra, Barrington IL" engraved on them in addition to Wes Tex Manufacturing. Sendra being the original maker of the lower, Wes Tex being the company that filed the Form 1.

I have an Uzi the same way, it was made by IMI but converted from semi by BG Machine. The thing has both IMI's original engraving as well as BG Machines name and location.

So I believe you are, in the opinion of most NFA experts, playing with fire by not engraving the lower.

The statement from whoever you talked to

"You're merely modifying an existing firearm, you're not the manufacturer of it so you don't count as the manufacturer..."

goes against everything everyone in the NFA business is doing, as well as what the Form 1 itself actually says.

Just be careful.


Here is something actually in writing from ATF.

This is a letter from a thread here:
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17660

Where ATF first tells the guy no markings are needed, then changes its mind.

So it's no surprise the guy you talked to on the phone didn't know for sure.
An attorney for National Firearms Act Trade & Collectors Association wrote to ATF and asked for final clarification.
It is as I explained above. NFA itself has no requirements for additional markings, but the section dealing with manufacturers does.
Once you become the "maker" by using a Form 1 you fall under the manufacturer rules in addition to NFA.



atffinalsbrverdictsmall1qs.jpg



Here is a link to a larger, more readable copy of the letter.

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=atffinalsbrverdict0px.jpg
 
My FFL also told me that no engraving was necessary since all the existing engraving is used for the info on the Form 4. This has been discussed heavily over on AR15 dot com. As long as the engravings on the existing firearms receiver matches the info on the Form 4, everything is OK.
I too am going SBR with a RRA I already have, but in the meantime, I bought a pistol lower so I can have some fun.
 
I have the approved form in my hand, right now, the Form 1, with the approval stamp on it, with the section 'h' that says "ADDITIONAL DESCRIPTION (Include all numbers and other identifying data which will appear on the firearm) and I left it blank, as per their instructions. They still approved it, even though it was blank.

I was told to leave it blank and only fill in the section 'g' "serial number" with identifying information, specifically and only, the serial number as it was on the receiver when I acquired the weapon.

If they had a problem with my leaving the section blank (indicating I do not plan/intend to have any additional info on the weapon) they would have returned my form and not approved my tax stamp application.
 
So just to be safe you're saying I should take my weapon to a gunsmith and have him engrave my name, city, and state on it?
 
The name of the original manufacturer, as well as the address/location appears on my Form 1 and on the weapon (receiver) itself.

I was told this was sufficient, indeed they told me I didn't even need the street address of the manufacturer on the form since they have so many from this company they already have it on file (indeed the exact address is not on my form, only the company name, city, state, and zip code).

I had no idea what the address was, but the ATF said they did indeed know.
 
ScottsGT, a Form 4 is an entirely different conversation. Form 4 is to transfer an existing weapon so there is no engraving requirement at all for that.
Form 3 either.

This is only for a Form 1 where you "make" a firearm.
 
I have the approved form in my hand, where I clearly left the section on "ADDITIONAL DESCRIPTIONS" blank, which is a clear statement (by virtue of implication of the fact it is blank) that there is no additional information and I do not intend to put any on it.

If they had an issue with that, they would not have given their approval. Indeed their approval is clearly on the form.
 
ScottsGT, a Form 4 is an entirely different conversation. Form 4 is to transfer an existing weapon so there is no engraving requirement at all for that.
Form 3 either.

I guess you have a point there. But I was basically asking him if he had to have MY existing non SBR lower engraved before transferring it to me after he has it registered as a SBR. He said no, he does not need to engrave it, all the needed info is on the existing RRA lower and RRA's SN would be used as the identifing SN on the SBR.
 
Look, there is a letter posted here from the head of ATF's NFA branch saying you need the engravings.

The head attorney for the NFA Collectors association believes you need the additional engraving too and advises their members accordingly.

Do whatever you think best.
 
See 27 CFR 479.102. While it isn't called out on a Form 1 (Application to Make and Register a Firearm), the requirement to engrave applies to manufacturers, importers and makers.
 
To clear up the confusion:
Previously, the ATF held the position that the manufacturer's marks were sufficient when you Form1'ed a firearm. They no longer hold that position, and any weapon converted from Title I (non-NFA) to Title II (NFA) must have the name, city and state of the person/entity that did the conversion engraved on either the reciever or the barrel.

Kharn
 
A lawyer friend of mine stated that non-communicated policies of the ATF are not binding law and that they cannot hold you to anything they have not communicated in some way to the public. How would you like it if the Congress passed a law in secret and began to arrest people for violating it? Although with the ATF it is not even a law, it is a matter of their policy. They have no authority to engage in what amounts to defacto passing of legislation by virtue of flipping and flopping on policy decisions.

I was never informed of this policy, by them, I was informed that I was in the right, and they approved my form which as a large BLANK left where it asks what additional markings I intend to make on the firearm, meaning they clearly knew I had no intention of making any markings.

If the ATF has some bogus policy changes that they have communicated to the people, then they can go hang because those changes are worthless by virtue of their failure to communicate them or make them available.

A letter of clarification from the IRS, sent to me, can never be binding against you, since you never had a chance to know of it. If a law is so ambiguous that several people need to receive clarification, the information imparted in the clarification letters from the regulatory body, cannot be held as binding against those who did not receive the letters.


You can post all the letters you want from the ATF, you can post them until your face turns blue. Until/Unless you show me in a statutory code or in some stated policy with a name, title, numerical reference, etc, where it says it must be way X, then it does not need to be way X.
 
OK look I am gonna do this one more time and then I'm done.

It's in English. It is not my fault that you cannot or will not understand it.

Please follow along carefully.

1) 27 C.F.R. § 479.102 states in part:

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

Please note that they say BOTH maker and manufacturer here. This is the section of LAW that requires a gun maker/manufacturer (please note they use both again) to mark firearms in certain ways.

2)National Firearms Act, enacted by Congress, defines the term MAKE to mean:

Make. The term "make", and the various derivatives of such word,
shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in
such business under the NFA), putting together, altering, any
combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.

So far we have 2 things, a law that says MAKERS must engrave firearms in a certain manner and a law that defines MAKE to mean more than just the original manufacture, it means to produce a firearm by modification as well, the purpose of the 5320.1

3) Regular firearms manufacturers don't use the 5320.1, it says:

Federal firearms license to manufacture firearms (Type 07 or 10) and who has paid special (occupational) tax to manufacture NFA firearms
is exempt from the making tax and filing of the ATF Form 1
application. Such qualified manufacturer must report and register each
NFA firearm manufactured by filing ATF Form 2.

So we see that a Form 1 is for you and I, not regular firearm makers.

And section h of the Form 1 says:

Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being
modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the
firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original
manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the existing
Serial Number. If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your
name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you
create is to be entered into item 4g.

Again we see this term MAKE. Hmm, we are MAKING a firearm with a 5320.1? We are?
And why does it say ORIGINAL MANUFACTURER? Well that's because there is a NEW maker now, the person named on the Form 1.

Well then if we are the MAKER, then 27 C.F.R. § 479.102 would apply to us since we've already seen that it requires:

You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm

Wait, you mean we MADE something with a Form 1, and that's different than MANUFACTURING it? So since we are the MAKER then we must follow the law.

Please note that 27 CFR 479.102 has nothing to do with the National Firearms Act, which is why the NFA branch doesn't give a crap whether you engrave the thing or not.

You are still in violation of 27 CFR 479.102, not the National Firearms Act, if you fail to mark a firearm you MADE in a certain manner.

The Supreme Court has held, as has just about every other court ever seated, that not knowing the law is not a justification for breaking it.

The courts have also held repeatedly that it is NOT the responsibility of governments to inform you of every law, that is YOUR responsibility.

So, just because some ATF agent doesn't know what they are doing does not relieve you of your responsibility to follow the law.

So that is how the boatload of lawyers that have looked at this come to the conclusion that if you MAKE a firearm then you must MARK it as the MAKER.

It's English, it's law, and you can do with it what you will.

27CFR 479.102 goes on to tell us what must be marked:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;

(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the firearm; and

Well since the 5320.1 told us to re-use the serial number, and since the caliber or gauge is already there, what is missing?

The name, city, state where the firearm was MADE which is what every person that has an actual CLUE has done with every firearm they have made with a Form 1 at least as early as the late 1970's (that's the oldest gun made on a Form 1 I've seen).

So it's not new at all, there has been no change or reversal of the law, merely the ATFs understanding of it, which given their track record is to be expected.

That does not, again, relieve you of your responsibility to follow the law, the printed, Congressional approved, codified, stained in blood and concrete statute.

There is no wiggle room here, it's very clear.
 
EOTechRulesAll:
A lawyer friend of mine stated that non-communicated policies of the ATF are not binding law and that they cannot hold you to anything they have not communicated in some way to the public.
Correct, but the ATF publishes an annual laws & regulations book.
Although with the ATF it is not even a law, it is a matter of their policy. They have no authority to engage in what amounts to defacto passing of legislation by virtue of flipping and flopping on policy decisions.
They're a regulatory agency, they're allowed to reinterpret or clarify requirements.
I was never informed of this policy, by them, I was informed that I was in the right, and they approved my form which as a large BLANK left where it asks what additional markings I intend to make on the firearm, meaning they clearly knew I had no intention of making any markings.
They did not need to know what additional markings were on the firearm, since the words in the "name", "city" and "state" boxes are required to be engraved upon the firearm. Also, only written clarification counts, "the licensing examiner told me so" wont hold up in court when you're charged with having an unengraved Form1'ed firearm.

Also, last I heard, approved Form1s in recent years has been accompanied by a statement listing their engraving requirements.

Kharn
 
EOTechRulesAll:

ATF will also tell you that NOTHING any ATF agent TELLS you verbally is binding. You must ask all questions in writing and get a written response. That is why you keep seeing everyone referencing letters. These questions have been asked many times before. While your "handler" may have told you what they believe, unless it is in writing, you are the one dragged into court and/or has their NFA item confiscated as contriband.
 
(a) Identification of firearms other than destructive devices
Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe.
...
26 USC 5842

"Such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe" = city and state of the maker.
 
Okay, thanks for all the information.


Based upon this information, and what my lawyer friend said (if I want to play it safe, and it is not too much money, just go get in engraved, check around with dealers, even call the ATF, etc, and get some solid answers), I am simply going to get the darn receiver engraved and that will be that.
 
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