Converting AR Pisol to SBR

[jrfoxx]

Wow, kinda glad I asked about the engraving (as I plan to SBR my M4 at some point), as it seems there are quite a few people like me who seem to have been given bad/incorrect info from varying sources (to include lawyers and the BATFE itself, sadly), that could have had some serious consequences.....

Seems pretty shady (IMHO) that one can get thier form 1 stamped/signed/approved even when the way they filled out the form makes it obvious they didnt do the new "maker's" engraving, and still end up in violation if caught later on. Any lawyers here have an opinion on if having the approved form, which make it clear you had not, and didnt intend to, include the new engraved info, could be used as a defense if they tried to prosecute you for not having the engraving later on? Seems like one would stand a pretty good shot at it, but I could also see how the govt would just say "doesnt matter that we approved it even though you did it wrong, its YOUR job to know and follow the law, not ours...." it it would fly based on that.I think when I do mine, I'll just have it engraved no matter what, even if I had a signed, certified letter from the President, VP, and head of the BATFE themselves, saying I didnt need it....
I dont trust the governments honesty, fairness, intelligence, or integrity a whole lot, and I'm too darn pretty for prison.....

 

[TexasRifleman]

"doesnt matter that we approved it even though you did it wrong, its YOUR job to know and follow the law, not ours...

So again the NFA branch is only responsible for making sure you meet the requirements of NFA.

The marking by a manufacturer is not part of NFA.

It's like when you go get your Drivers License. They don't make sure your car has good brakes before they give you the Drivers License.


And at the end of the day here we're talking 35 or 40 bucks to have your name, city, and state put on a lower.

 

[ScottsGT]

My head hurts.....

 

[Hkmp5sd]

My head hurts.....

ATF says if you have your name, city, and state engraved on your forehead, your head will never hurt again, although you will need prior approval to take it out of the state and you may encounter delays boarding airline flights.

 

[TexasRifleman]

My head hurts.....

Hah. Try living in the NFA world year after year and not screwing up.

More than my head hurts......

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

They cited the code to me today, but they also said the BARREL is just as fine as the receiver.

 

[wdlsguy]

You can engrave the "frame, receiver, or barrel". If you choose to engrave the barrel, you have to engrave the barrel of every upper you install on your registered lower.

 

[TexasRifleman]

They cited the code to me today, but they also said the BARREL is just as fine as the receiver.

Once again you are with they "they said".

Let's not play the "they said" thing again OK?

Let's go to the US Code again, what REALLY matters.

(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to
expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm
silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include
an antique firearm.

A barrel by itself is not a firearm according to this is it?

And the law we went over at sickening length before said you had to engrave the firearm right?

So the gotcha here is the attachment of the barrel.

On bolt actions you will see that it is common for the makers to engrave the barrel because the barrel is "integral" to the receiver.

If you use the barrel then you need to have an engraved barrel for every upper that you put on the lower, and never have the lower without the upper attached.

What you are suggesting goes against what every firearm maker in the country has been doing for the the last 40 years (since the GCA of 68)

You have NEVER seen an AR maker engrave the upper have you? You think there might be a reason for that?

 

[ScottsGT]

Quote:
My head hurts.....

ATF says if you have your name, city, and state engraved on your forehead, your head will never hurt again, although you will need prior approval to take it out of the state and you may encounter delays boarding airline flights.

Do you realize how close to the truth this really is! For Gods sake, I'm from South Carolina, and if the Gov. does not sign the Real ID extension, I have to have a passport, go thru extensive searches and wandings just to get on a freaking airplane to fly anywhere within the USA.
Of course the sheep are saying "Well, the airlines are regulated by the feds..." So are the interstates! What next? A "toll booth" at each border where you "Show your papers!"

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

Well Mr. Rifleman, please show me where I said I have an AR SBR? I do not...

They actually read me the code, the first operator and then the second person (a specialist) and both of them said the barrel counts, although the receiver is the better of the two, the barrel is fine. The receiver "is" the firearm, but the short barrel is what makes it an SBR, although the SBR status is carried with the receiver, not contingent upon the barrel. You can put a 16 inch long barrel back on the rifle and it still remains a legal SBR with SBR status. Odd how that works... That's my understanding of it anyway.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I said already you could do the barrel if you did every barrel that might ever be attached to the lower, that's just a dumb idea however.

What that means is that legally you cannot ever have the lower itself without a barrel attached. Certainly for cleaning or whatever you could, but you could never transport the lower by itself. You could never borrow your buddies upper at the range to see how his suppressor works, because you'd be lacking the proper engraving.

Would you get in trouble for it? Probably not but we just saw a case where a poor guy had an AR malfunction at the range and now the gun's owner is convicted of having an illegal machinegun. Nothing is outside the realm of possibility if they decide to make you a target. And frankly I think having any NFA weapon at all puts you on some "list" somewhere.

As to whether or not YOU own a shorty AR, that doesn't really matter does it? The title of the thread here is "AR Pistol to SBR" so I'm using an AR as the example.

Sure, if you wanna whack the barrel off on a Remington 700 you could engrave the barrel and it might make sense then. You're not going to have the barrel without the receiver.

But on any modular firearm it's a silly thing to do, legal or not and that's why AR makers don't engrave any of the required info on the barrels. As soon as that upper came off their lower would be in violation.

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

They cited the code as in they read me the numbers and read me the text, and told me where I could go to find an exact copy of the text on my own.

 

[EOTechRulesAll]

Accordingly, you can place your name, city, and state, on the barrel of the firearm...

Read that line...






Also, note this...

 

[TexasRifleman]

Yes I know, the code is here:

The only thing REQUIRED to be on the receiver is the serial number, but the rest MUST be with the "firearm" so if you ever take the barrel off of a modular firearm, or use a barrel without the proper engraving, you are in violation.

Read the second part I put in bold, that's where they get you, the "easily removed" part. A modular barrel is "easily removed", potentially placing you in violation.

It's a dangerous path to walk down and it's why no AR makers do it that way. You could argue that it's legal sure, but just a really bad idea.

Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and
(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which

 

[waterhouse]

This gets argued a lot. I want to thanks TR for taking the time to post the laws as well as the letters. It will be easier to cut and paste his posts in the future than typing it all out. Thanks TR.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Thanks TR.

Certainly.

It's a real PITA to deal with this, a violation of my Constitutional Rights etc, and it's so vague that even the ATF agents don't all know it.

I've spent years playing with NFA toys and there are SO many ways to trip you up it's unreal.

It seems like they can make a felon out of you for just about anything
so just be very careful and always take the side of caution.

That said, keep on registering them, don't let the bastards win.