Cost Effective source for lead casting?

[D.B. Cooper]

Your math is flawed. A pound of lead contains 7000 grains. Divide 7000 by 240 yields 29 bullets per pound. Your lead, even delivered might be $4.30/lb. so 4.30 divided by 29----,,,, 14.827 per bullet.

I'm looking at the total cost of the loaded cartridge (powder, primer, and projectile). I went from buying ammo at Cabela's for 60¢ per round, to handloading them for 20¢. 20 is 1/3 of 60, so it's a 2/3 (roughly 66%) savings.

 

[armoredman]

There is another guy on the board who just posted up 100 pounds of wheelweight lead cast into ingots for $100. Pretty good deal

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Okay. Let's just back up and punt and set the time is valuable discussion aside for a moment. If I just wanted to dabble in casting, and only wanted to buy virgin lead from, say rotometals, (lazy way, easy way, right?) and I was going to just make plinking ammo for shooting steel and paper. Which BNH number would I look for? What's the minimum equipment I would need purchase? (I'm thinking I can smelt lead in an old cast iron pan over a wood fire?)

 

[edwardware]

If I just wanted to dabble in casting, and only wanted to buy virgin lead. . . Which BNH number would I look for? What's the minimum equipment I would need purchase? (I'm thinking I can smelt lead in an old cast iron pan over a wood fire?)

You really don't want to be figuring out how to run a mold while squatting over a fire running a ladle! You could spend all your time just keeping the fire consistently hot.

I suggest buying Lee's reloading manual (for the casting chapter), a Lee electric bottom pour pot, and a single Lee mold; I don't think you can collect the minimum equipment for less. That should be <$100, maybe alot less if you buy a used pot from the True Believers over @ CastBoolits.

Edit: you can run a pot on a propane fire. That'll work.

I don't know what BHN to start with, but I cast 9mm and 45 from range scrap, which is pretty soft. The trick is using Powder Coat, or HiTek instead of grease-groove lube. That too saves equipment money.

 

[Walkalong]

Which BNH number would I look for?

What application/calibers? But that said, more people get in trouble with too high a BHN that too low.

 

[SamT1]

General plinkers 10 would be a good guess, 12 works fine for full power nonmagnum handguns.

For cost reasons I can’t imagine using anything but wheel weights, I add a little Lino for rifle bullets though. Once you find places to get tire weights you get a surplus. I haven’t been actively searching for 3 years, but a tire man still drops off a bucket every 3-4 months. I’ve got it runnng out my ears so I’m going to start smelting it into Ingots and selling it. It’s time to get you a lifetime supply, the amount of lead weights is slowly and steadily declining.

I’d say the minimum equipment would be:
10# Lee bottom pour pot (it won’t be worth your time without a bottom pour) $40 used
Lee mold (get a tumble lube mold so you can use Lee Alox lube)$20
10# of lead to fill the pot $15
1 crayon or candle or saw dust to flux it. Free
A hammer handle to open the mold. Free
Bottle of alox. $4
I’d go on and buy another mold to make it an even $100.

 

[armoredman]

Lee Cast Bullet Handbook. Invaluable stuff.

 

[CraigC]

Okay. Let's just back up and punt and set the time is valuable discussion aside for a moment. If I just wanted to dabble in casting, and only wanted to buy virgin lead from, say rotometals, (lazy way, easy way, right?) and I was going to just make plinking ammo for shooting steel and paper. Which BNH number would I look for? What's the minimum equipment I would need purchase? (I'm thinking I can smelt lead in an old cast iron pan over a wood fire?)

Totally depends on the application. For practice and plinking at lower velocities, you want softer bullets. For higher velocities/pressures, you want harder bullets. Remember that Elmer Keith was only using bullets around 12BHN for all his heavy loads. These days we might prefer a little harder. For heavyweight bullets on heavy game, we want them as hard as we can get without becoming brittle. As velocity and game weight increases, hardness/toughness becomes more and more critical. Too hard and the bullet will shatter when it contacts bone.

Then perhaps you can tell me, since you don't like casting and you add a cost of your time, how do you arrive at that cost? Do you use what you are paid at your regular work? If retired, a division of your retirement check, based on an 8 hour wage? Do you have a work at home business that you could be working on, so you can base this cost on what you could be making there? i'm not trying to be snarky, just genuinely interested in how you arrived at what seems like a very arbitrary number.

I've provided no numbers as to what dollar amount I place on my time, arbitrary or otherwise. The way I see it, there are three major reasons for people to cast their own bullets.

1. Because they enjoy it as part of the shooting/handloading sport.

2. To save money. This usually involves sourcing materials that cost more labor than money.

3. To feed a firearm they want to shoot but can't buy bullets for. This often goes along with forming brass for wildcat or truly obsolete cartridges.

If you don't enjoy it and can buy commercial cast bullets, then #2 is the only reason left. People make time for their priorities. If you'd rather spend money on bullets than time, then you buy cast bullets. It's that simple. No different from me making holsters and you buying them. I enjoy the process and it doesn't matter if I make any money at it. I'd rather spend my time doing leather work, you'd rather spend it casting bullets. The concept is the same. Last I checked, I've never had a single argument over folks doing their own leatherwork.

 

[Walkalong]

The way I see it, there are three major reasons for people to cast their own bullets.

1. Because they enjoy it as part of the shooting/handloading sport.

2. To save money. This usually involves sourcing materials that cost more labor than money.

3. To feed a firearm they want to shoot but can't buy bullets for. This often goes along with forming brass for wildcat or truly obsolete cartridges.

If you don't enjoy it and can buy commercial cast bullets, then #2 is the only reason left. People make time for their priorities.

Cannot disagree here.

 

[USSR]

Okay. Let's just back up and punt and set the time is valuable discussion aside for a moment. If I just wanted to dabble in casting, and only wanted to buy virgin lead from, say rotometals, (lazy way, easy way, right?) and I was going to just make plinking ammo for shooting steel and paper. Which BNH number would I look for? What's the minimum equipment I would need purchase? (I'm thinking I can smelt lead in an old cast iron pan over a wood fire?)

Rotometals? Not just the lazy way, but the expensive way. Order online from guys selling lead on the castboolits website and pay a lot less.
BHN number? Tell me the cartridge and the anticipated velocity first.
Minimum equipment? Several guys have already given you a list of Lee equipment to buy.
Cast Iron pan over a wood fire? Surely you jest?

Don

 

[edwardware]

'm thinking I can smelt lead in an old cast iron pan over a wood fire?

Cast Iron pan over a wood fire? Surely you jest?

To clarify, it's difficult to appreciate just how HOT 620-700degF really is (lead working temp). Most people are used to dealing with hot food, but most food/stovetop/oven use never gets much above boiling, a mere 212degF.

Liquid liquifies at ~621F. You can get there on a wood fire, but it's a whole lot more difficult that boiling water! You'd really want a bellows and a boy to pump it.

If you already have a propane turkey fryer, you can start with that and steel pot with a ladle, but it's not nearly as convenient as a bottom pour electric pot. Don't make the aluminum pot mistake.

 

[Walkalong]

I built a home made heater using an old 220V stove eye. I used an old Club Aluminum (An old brand name cookware, very thick) pot from a trash pile to melt lead in, and a bottom pour ladle. I used a ring of steel (short piece of old pipe) to sit around the pot to help hold in heat.

I bought a ladle, bought a mold, scrounged wheel weights and started casting with my home made setup. In a relatively short time I decided casting wasn't for me for 99% of applications, although I still have what I need, and a lot of pure lead and a fair amount of ingots that I "smelted" using wheel weights and 95/5 solder from when it was actually 95% antimony and 5% tin.

I have not cast any bullets in some time.

Main two reasons:

1. I didn't love doing it, it was work. It was cool, and I really enjoyed learning it and doing it for awhile, but to keep up with demand was just work, and 500 cast bullets for my .45 ACP were $15 to $20 per 500 at the gun shows back then. (Yes, I made less too.)

2. My discretionary money increased, while at the same time my time became worth more. My bullet needs don't outweigh my ability to buy them. I don't shoot thousands and thousands of rounds a year like some folks. 3 or 4K at the peak I imagine. Less the last three years due to time constraints outside of work.

 

[Englishmn]

I use cast iron pot on propane turkey burner for cleaning and making ingots. Rcbs bottom pour for bullets.

 

[USSR]

I built a home made heater using an old 220V stove eye. I used an old Club Aluminum (An old brand name cookware, very thick) pot from a trash pile to melt lead in, and a bottom pour ladle. I used a ring of steel (short piece of old pipe) to sit around the pot to help hold in heat.

I bought a ladle, bought a mold, scrounged wheel weights and started casting with my home made setup. In a relatively short time I decided casting wasn't for me...

Well, if I had such a set up and was ladle pouring, I would be with you and decide not to cast. That's why we tell anyone wanting to cast to get a bottom pour furnace.

Don

 

[brewer12345]

Okay. Let's just back up and punt and set the time is valuable discussion aside for a moment. If I just wanted to dabble in casting, and only wanted to buy virgin lead from, say rotometals, (lazy way, easy way, right?) and I was going to just make plinking ammo for shooting steel and paper. Which BNH number would I look for? What's the minimum equipment I would need purchase? (I'm thinking I can smelt lead in an old cast iron pan over a wood fire?)

Bottom pour pot (Lee is cheapest and works fine), a mold (Lee again, maybe a 6 cavity, can make do with a 2 cavity), a mallet or stout hardwood stick to knock the sprue plate open, some wax (old candle dribblings will work), and some safety gear (thick leather work gloves will work, but welder's gloves are better; face shield is a must IMO, but some make do with safety glasses). That and some lead alloy will get you started. Depending on your mold and what you are casting for, you may well need to size the bullets and a Lee sizing kit will do that cheaply. If you are getting started, begin with tumble lubing as it requires no equipment other than some lube (I use "Ben's liquid lube" but you can start with straight Lee Alox to keep it simple) and a plastic tub. That is about it.

As for hardness, unless you are planning to do something that is far above what I would consider "plinking" loads, 10 to 12 BHN should be fine. I started out with clip on wheel weights for 38 special loads but am shifting to a softer mix of range scrap plus a bit of tin because I keep finding that the harder bullets are more accurate in peppier loads than I am looking for.

 

[armoredman]

I've provided no numbers as to what dollar amount I place on my time, arbitrary or otherwise.

Not you - edwardware stated on page 1 that his time is $20 an hour for casting work.

...Valuing my time at $20/hr, it costs me about $0.75-0.80/# to make the muffin ingots...

 

[Walkalong]

Well, if I had such a set up and was ladle pouring, I would be with you and decide not to cast. That's why we tell anyone wanting to cast to get a bottom pour furnace.

Don

You might have a point.

 

[jmorris]

The bare minimum sounds like a short hobby.

Kind of like a Lee hammer style loader to reload with. Makes the process slower and more difficult than need be.

One quickly comes to the conclusion it’s not worth it and they are right, in the method they approached it.

 

[brewer12345]

Banged out a bit over 20 pounds of 133 grain RNFPs for 38 special this morning. Keeps me from going stir crazy or fretting when I have too much time on my hands.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

View attachment 774404

Banged out a bit over 20 pounds of 133 grain RNFPs for 38 special this morning. Keeps me from going stir crazy or fretting when I have too much time on my hands.

That there is pretty.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

To clarify, it's difficult to appreciate just how HOT 620-700degF really is (lead working temp). Most people are used to dealing with hot food, but most food/stovetop/oven use never gets much above boiling, a mere 212degF.

Liquid liquifies at ~621F. You can get there on a wood fire, but it's a whole lot more difficult that boiling water! You'd really want a bellows and a boy to pump it.

If you already have a propane turkey fryer, you can start with that and steel pot with a ladle, but it's not nearly as convenient as a bottom pour electric pot. Don't make the aluminum pot mistake.

I appreciate your input. I was under the impression that lead melted between 471 and 621 depending on the lead/antimony/tin content.

So what I hear you saying is, that, for all practical purposes, this can't really be done off-grid. (I had envisioned doing this on the outdoor fire at my cabin property on weekends - easy ventilation.) At any rate, I do have a fish fryer that runs on propane so no big deal there.

 

[jmorris]

It can be done but that’s what I have always tried to avoid.

 

[CLP]

D.B Cooper

Read this primer- I post the link frequently. It's a fantastic starting point on casting. Lyman's book on Cast Bullets is another valuable resource. Glen Fryxell extensively discusses the relationship between alloy composition, alloy hardness, and the type of lube used. I can't (correction) speak to powder coating. I know it's effective, but I like lubing and sizing in one step and being done- that's just my preference. I do think that starting with Lee equipment is smart, but if you do get into casting you'll want a proper lube sizer. If you ever decided to get out of casting, you should be able to recoup a significant portion of your investment. I'm currently looking for another Lubrisizer at the moment in fact. There's also a number of chapters on the evolution of cast bullets in general and chapters dedicated to some very classic cast bullets (eg, Keith style wadcutters).

This is the link to the LASC web site and there are a lot of very interesting and informative articles to be read here, including A Nation of Cowards and how to make Ed's Red.

Regardless of whether you enjoy casting or not- some people do and some people don't- with a little effort you will be able to find cheap lead.

Casting is one of those things that you can keep incredibly simple or make really complicated.

 

[brewer12345]

That there is pretty.

They are even prettier loaded and fired.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

They are even prettier loaded and fired.

Hey, Brewer...

I just now read your tag line at the bottom of your posts.

I approve. =)