Courtesy/Guilt of buying from the local store vs. online

[Vern Humphrey]

Wal-Mart can also negotiate lower prices and better service from manufacturers.

Which leads to the question, do we have an obligation to pay higher prices so someone who is probably richer than two or three of us put together can benefit? Or is the obligation on the businessman, to serve his customers?

All the small hardware stores where I grew up are gone. When was the last time you saw a Western Auto?

When was the last time you saw a buggywhip store?

It is the nature of a free system that good, efficient businesses succeed and poorly-run businesses fail.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Local FFL store charges $92.00 to transfer any gun

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'd find me another FFL -- hell, that's $2.00 more than the FFL costs. You could get your own FFL and advertise at your local gun club that you would do transfers for a more reasonable fee (say half) and clean up.

 

[Works2Shoot]

Oh were it so easy.
I figure it actually takes about an hour to do a transfer, between faxing the FFL, accepting the delivery (and waiting at the post office if you missed the mail that day), unwrapping it, logging it, calling the customer, doing the 4473, taking out the several pounds of mummy wrapping, and logging the gun out. Of course if you screwed up on any of that your license is forfeit, not to mention the liability of having the gun in the store while the customer finds time to come get it (i've waited 3 weeks in some cases).
Figure that an average store will have minimally an overhead of about $1500/month. That's just to open the door every morning. So at $25 a transfer he'll have to do 60 a month just to break even on his overhead.
With those numbers I'd say screw it and find something else to do.

Your numbers do not take into account the main revenue generator of a LGS. Selling their own supply of guns. The extra 25/transfer is just that, extra money that they would miss out on if the customer went somewhere else.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Bubba613
Oh were it so easy.
I figure it actually takes about an hour to do a transfer, between faxing the FFL, accepting the delivery (and waiting at the post office if you missed the mail that day), unwrapping it, logging it, calling the customer, doing the 4473, taking out the several pounds of mummy wrapping, and logging the gun out. Of course if you screwed up on any of that your license is forfeit, not to mention the liability of having the gun in the store while the customer finds time to come get it (i've waited 3 weeks in some cases).
Figure that an average store will have minimally an overhead of about $1500/month. That's just to open the door every morning. So at $25 a transfer he'll have to do 60 a month just to break even on his overhead.
With those numbers I'd say screw it and find something else to do.

If a rancher could break even on his overhead by selling manure, he'd be dancing in the streets!

 

[oneounceload]

Your numbers do not take into account the main revenue generator of a LGS. Selling their own supply of guns. The extra 25/transfer is just that, extra money that they would miss out on if the customer went somewhere else.

And if YOU really think the profit comes from guns, you don't know the business - profit comes from the accessories, NOT the guns..........doing tranfers costs money, and in some states (the ones folks cripe about the most), the cost is even more due to gov't regulation.

If it was SO easy to make a fortune doing transfers, why isn't everyone doing just that?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If it was SO easy to make a fortune doing transfers, why isn't everyone doing just that?

Around here, just about every FFL-holder does make money on transfers.

Take a look at your own post;

profit comes from the accessories, NOT the guns

Make a friend of a man who wants you do do transfers for him and make money selling him accessories.

 

[ElectrikKoolAid]

I learned a lot about local gun shops when the Obama Panic started.

The price-gouging was stunning. (EG: Kel Tec Sub2000 carbine tagged at $650!)

I know a lot of places I WON'T buy from now that some sanity has returned to the marketplace.

 

[clutch]

I tend to visit a shop and actually handle the firearm. I will call around and ask if they have it and how much before going. If I like it, I buy it there.

If the gun was something no one stocked, I'd feel fine ordering over the internet and using one of the local ffls that seem to be in the business of doing transfers so they can keep a ffl for their own purposes.

Clutch

 

[Ian]

I've entirely stopped going to brick-and-mortar gun stores. They basically never have anything interesting, and when they actually do, it's massively overpriced. The last time I got a good deal at a store was when someone else came in looking to sell a gun to the store, got a laughable offer from them, and sold it to me outside instead.

Small independent operation cannot cater to the same mass audience as big stores, because they can't compete on price. The way to succeed with a small shop, IMO, is to pick a niche market where you can actually have a superior inventory and price, and use the internet as your primary sales outlet. Now that we can effectively communicate instantly with anyone on the planet, the independent small store is dying, and for good reason. The new Mom n' Pop operation will be niche-market web sites.

FWIW, I love doing business with those sorts of businesses. I found one that specialized in a particular brand of defunct car parts, and they happened to be located just a couple miles from my apartment, so I picked my order up in person instead of having it shipped. Turned out the business was an elderly couple in a quite residential neighborhood - the husband worked for this particular car company for years, and when they went under he started his own parts outlet. That's the future of small retail for most things.

 

[speedway]

I never buy new guns. I have bought my share of used ones though.

 

[driftrider]

Guilty? Depends on whether the local dealer could get what I wanted at a price we both could agree on or not. Sometimes what you want is only available online. Other times the price online (including x-fer fees) might be so good that only a fool would pass it up. I always try to give the local dealers a chance to bid against the online dealer. And most of the time, at least one local shop can get close enough, or better than the online deal (factoring fees and/or tax).

As for doing transfers. Some dealers really get their panties in a bunch over transfers because they know the customer bought the gun elsewhere. Others see it as an easy way to generate additional revenue. Local dealers charge $25-35 to do a transfer. These dealers have a copy of their FFL ready to fax, so faxing takes all of 5 minutes to do it. When the gun arrives it comes usually with the other transfers/orders for the day, and last time I watched a dealer check in a gun it took maybe 10 minutes start to finish. Then when the customer arrives to pick it up, the 4473 actually takes perhaps 5min (maybe 10 on the outside) to call in the NICS check, and 5 minutes to log the gun out and ring up the customers fees. So that's 25 to 30 minutes of actual time spent to make $25. $50/hr, and it's all profit. I think some also do it because the it not only generates raw profit in itself, but it also brings a customer in the door. Got gun... need ammo? holster? accessories?

If the dealer throws the guy out for asking him to xfer a gun, the dealer is just cutting off his nose to spite his face. Better to make $25 for 1/2 hours work than nothing, IMO.

Mike

 

[Bubba613]

Your numbers do not take into account the main revenue generator of a LGS. Selling their own supply of guns. The extra 25/transfer is just that, extra money that they would miss out on if the customer went somewhere else.

How are they going to sell their own supply of guns when everyone is ordering from Bud's to save the sales tax?
Customers who want to save $10 buying online and screwing the state of sales tax revenue won't buy any accessories because they can get them at [generic big box store] for 50 cents cheaper.
Heck with people like that. They are price buyers, the bane of any business.

 

[Centaur 1]

I've yet to buy online, but I have bought at big box stores. At least they are employing locals. Quite a few of the guns at Walmart aren't even carried anymore at local gun shops because of price, Ruger 10/22 as an example. A friend of mine owns a gun shop and he tells customers to buy online. He makes the transfer fees without having to carry items that might not sell for a while.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Your numbers do not take into account the main revenue generator of a LGS. Selling their own supply of guns. The extra 25/transfer is just that, extra money that they would miss out on if the customer went somewhere else.

The MAIN "revenue generator" at your LGS is =not= selling guns. The margin there is just too small. The guns just get you in the place, the -real- revenue (and margin) is in all the other stuff ... hats, socks, jackets, boots, targets, yadda yadda yadda. Not uncommon for the margin on that stuff to be 50 - 75%+... and there isn't 20 years worth of record keeping involved.

A $25 transfer fee barely, if at all (and most likely not at all), covers their cost in providing the service. All you see is them call in the 4473 ... you don't see the time it takes to unpack, verify the model/serial numbers, get into the bound book, get out of the bound book, and then file and store the records for 20 years. And that is on a paper-perfect transfer. Get one that goes "off the rails" (which in my experience is about 1 in 10, for what ever reason) and the time you spend getting it all fixed goes up by several orders of magnitude.

 

[david58]

The MAIN "revenue generator" at your LGS is =not= selling guns. The margin there is just too small. The guns just get you in the place, the -real- revenue (and margin) is in all the other stuff ... hats, socks, jackets, boots, targets, yadda yadda yadda. Not uncommon for the margin on that stuff to be 50 - 75%+... and there isn't 20 years worth of record keeping involved.

A $25 transfer fee barely, if at all (and most likely not at all), covers their cost in providing the service. All you see is them call in the 4473 ... you don't see the time it takes to unpack, verify the model/serial numbers, get into the bound book, get out of the bound book, and then file and store the records for 20 years. And that is on a paper-perfect transfer. Get one that goes "off the rails" (which in my experience is about 1 in 10, for what ever reason) and the time you spend getting it all fixed goes up by several orders of magnitude.

Absolutely. There is no way a business can continue making $50 an hour of "pure profit." Rent, electricity, debt servicing, employee salaries and benefits, advertisement, and more.

Markup in most LGSs is not sufficient alone to do the trick, unless they sell such a volume that they can buy at a better level of wholesale pricing. That is a huge volume. As you say, its the goodies that have a 50% or better markup that have to carry the show.

To make a living, a guy is going to have to gross over $200K a year with a shop, and that won't be a fancy living and he won't have many employees, if any.

Buy from the internet guilt-free, but if you use the LGS with questions etc, BUY STUFF from him.

As an aside, we have that big orange lumber/home improvement store here in my small town. The local lumber yard has expanded and is going gangbusters - decent pricing and awareness and service of the local market. That's where the LGS can make it - paying attention to the locals and making sure that service as well as pricing brings the locals in when it can be had cheaper elsewhere.

 

[whalerman]

I got a buddy who buys online all the time. He saves a fortune by purchasing from businesses all over the world. For his savings he gets items that aren't quite right. He jumps though hoops hoping to get returns handled appropriately, and he has money frozen in accounts until items are received and documented. On bad deals he gets to write letters to the BBB and threaten lawsuits. Every time I talk with him he is waiting for something that should have been delivered last week, or last month.

I will gladly pay a reasonable premium to look someone in the face, shake his hand, and thank him for his personal service. But there is that reasonable word again. I work for my money too. But I'd rather not deal with idiots. Somebody who is trying to sell me an item for a dime less than someone else is usually an idiot.

 

[GunsAmerica Fan]

The problem that we are dealing with a commodity that is like no other in the country, guns. The stocking gun dealers are our on the front lines of our 2nd Amendment freedom and they need to be healthy and profitable in order for our freedom to survive.

I don't support the practice of online discounting, and I have been petitioning the industry for several years now to shut off the online gun whores from supply. This is what the guitar industry does. You CAN NOT go online and buy a Gibson guitar, a Fender guitar and ESP guitar, for less than MAP pricing. If someone does it they instantly get shut off by the distributors. Our industry is too cheap and petty to stand up and shut these fly by night outfits off. They do nothing for our industry, they do nothing for the NRA, NSSF, or any freedom fighting organization, and they just stuff our freedom in their pocket and walk away.

As a consumer it is tough though. You shouldn't have to make that choice and I don't know many people who would go pay 35% more for a gun for no reason. But believe it or not, a 25% profit on a gun is considered extremely high. Generally gun shops run in the 12-20% range, and even the distributors are running in the single digits. Compare that to the rest of retail out there that is 50%-100% and even double that in sectors like clothing.

This isn't a consumer question. You shouldn't be put in the position to choose between the local dealer who is most likely an NRA life member and will be there to sell you guns through thick and thin, and a fly by night internet gun whore. The industry should be backing it's own dealers, and it just simply doesn't

 

[brandon_mcg]

i have never purchased online but i have always bought guns and ammo from one store until this Christmas. Felt guilty for a couple of weeks but i gave my local guy 3 opportunities to order it for me and he never did so i guess have to do what it takes to get the gun you want.

 

[driftrider]

So says the person from gunsamerica.com, an auction sight where a BUNCH of online gun whores... I mean legitimate Class 3 FFL dealers... sell their firearms regularly. Last time I checked, there are many, many legit, stocking dealers that routinely sell stock on gunbroker.com, which, I might add, is a better site, IMHO. In fact, there is a dealer who's brick and mortar is in Muscatine, IA that sells guns on gunbroker.com all the time. Muscatine is about 1/2 hour away from where I live, and I wouldn't have known about his store if I hadn't seen him on gunbroker.

As for any particular dealer needing to be healthy and profitable for the 2nd Amendment to survive, that's utter garbage. Where one goes out of business, another will rise in it's place. It's business. Forcing MAP pricing schemes on online dealers is just going to inflate prices at local shops because they don't have to compete at all. And to say that gun dealer are the front line of defense for the 2nd Amendment is also a gross exaggeration. The government doesn't give a rip about what gun dealers think, aside from the fact that the owner/FFL holder has the same one vote any other NRA member does. I also would point out that each and every FFL dealer that sells guns online, whether he's an actual stock brick and mortar store owner or not, is going to have the same NRA affiliations as any other FFL dealer.

This isn't a consumer question. You shouldn't be put in the position to choose between the local dealer who is most likely an NRA life member and will be there to sell you guns through thick and thin, and a fly by night internet gun whore. The industry should be backing it's own dealers, and it just simply doesn't

And why the heck not? I, as a consumer, ought to be able to buy from whatever legitimate source that I want, online or otherwise. I, as a consumer, benefit from the competition that the internet provides when otherwise there may be none. And again, what makes you think that the dealer that sells exclusively online can't be a NRA Life Member, and an equally vehement supporter of the 2nd Amendment?

The fact is that online dealers and auction sites provide a valuable service to consumers, by providing price competition and forcing local brick & mortars to up their service standard to compensate. If you're a local shop that can't or won't find a way to compete, then good riddance. Someone else will come along and fill the vacancy who can and will.

Mike

 

[david58]

Noooooo!

I don't support the practice of online discounting, and I have been petitioning the industry for several years now to shut off the online gun whores from supply. This is what the guitar industry does. You CAN NOT go online and buy a Gibson guitar, a Fender guitar and ESP guitar, for less than MAP pricing. If someone does it they instantly get shut off by the distributors. Our industry is too cheap and petty to stand up and shut these fly by night outfits off. They do nothing for our industry, they do nothing for the NRA, NSSF, or any freedom fighting organization, and they just stuff our freedom in their pocket and walk away.

This isn't a consumer question. You shouldn't be put in the position to choose between the local dealer who is most likely an NRA life member and will be there to sell you guns through thick and thin, and a fly by night internet gun whore. The industry should be backing it's own dealers, and it just simply doesn't

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. Distributors telling you what you can sell something for, then cutting you off if you sell for less, is anticompetitive. If a guy wants to sell on a thinner margin on the internet, so be it. When I sold my merchandise wholesale, I didn't care what the buyers sold them for - in fact, they undersold ME. Their decision, their way of doing business. The local shops should be able to beat them up on service before and after the sale. I should be able to choose my margin, and how I sell. I should be able to go online and buy a cheap Gibson guitar....

And it IS a consumer question. Intervening and telling me who I can buy from at what price is very much a consumer issue - folks that are doing that are not looking out for me, but for themselves and their cartel. What is described as an industry protecting its dealers is just protecting its prices and profits.

 

[Davek1977]

A lot of folks think they are saving money when they buy online and the difference is $50 or so - but when you factor shipping and transfer fees, it isn't always the better deal.

Yes and no.....For me, its always a savings of at least 30 bucks in such a case...Buds has freee shipping, and my ffl charges $20. Quite frankly though, the difference between Bud's pricing and the local competition is usually considerably more than "$50". In fact, buds usually beats most online dealers too. I just purchased a firearm from buds for 659 shipped....the same gun, before shipping (NOT included at this site) was $750 @ Centerfire Systems. Locally, the only compreable weapon was over $800. Its hard NOT to shop elsewhere when these are the kinds of "deals" I get locally.

 

[LawScholar]

...they are price buyers, the bane of any business

Respectfully, sir, such buyers are not the bane of an effective, marketplace competitive free market business. If one store will sell me a Beretta 92FS for 600, and another store for 650, I am not the bane of the second business but rather the boon of the first.

Price buying is the very nature of American capitalism.

 

[Shadow 7D]

the trick to a true 'free market' is efficiency, some will cut corners and prices, other will have quality, and charge for it, and the market will tell.

I quit going to a certain shop, prices aren't great (except on ammo) and they never really have anything that great, hell the last time I went there I sold them mags, which paid shipping.

 

[Bubba613]

Respectfully, sir, such buyers are not the bane of an effective, marketplace competitive free market business. If one store will sell me a Beretta 92FS for 600, and another store for 650, I am not the bane of the second business but rather the boon of the first.

Price buying is the very nature of American capitalism.

No, sir it is not. Value buying is the nature of smart capitalism. For someone who's sole arbiter is "the bottom dollar" then such a person needs to shop at WalMart. All the time.
But many people recognize the value of the informed local merchant and a personal relationship. I have personally saved customers thousands of dollars pointing out the gun they want will not do what they think it will do, or repairing a gun for free that would otherwise have to be shipped back to the manufacturer at considerable expense. Shockingly not everyone is fully informed about firearms and is equipped to make a smart purchase that will satisfy his needs and his budget.
This is in addition to the good or special deals the merchant might slip to a good customer. My last one involved a LNIB Sig P238 for about $425 to a special customer.
People who don't recognize this end up paying more. "Billiger is tyer" as my grandfather used to say. Their "bottom dollar" approach is counterproductive both for them and for the local merchants who are, or should be, a source of reliable information.